MovieChat Forums > The Producers (1968) Discussion > Can someone explain what's so illegal?

Can someone explain what's so illegal?


Just saw the Broadway play today with my wife and she brought up a question, i.e. why did Max and Leopold go to jail? If they collected more money than they spent to produce the play, why was it a catastrophe when it became a hit? If they were selling so many tickets, why couldn't they pay back the investors their original investments and then some? What are we missing here? Perhaps it was explained in the movie and we weren't paying attention. Did it have more to do with the two sets of books that Leo was keeping? Or is just asking the question missing the point of this delightfully wacky classic?

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Well in the movie, Max and Leo signed a bunch of contracts their investors sent them. Each contract stated the percent of the profit the investor would receive. Except that the contracts combined go way over 100%. One person gets 50%, another 50%, and yet another 100%....you get the idea. So it's impossible to pay them back since you can only have 100% of anything.

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It's fraud, and it's very illegal.

Suppose you sell 10 shares for $10K each. You've collected 100K for your production, and the 10 investors are each owed 10% of the profits of the film. These guys conspired (itself a crime) to bring in much more than they spent. Yet the still owed each individual the percentage detailed in their contracts. If they collected 10K from 50 investors, they'd basically owe 10% of the profits to each of the 50, or 500% of the profits total. Obviously, you can't ever pay it all back.

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They sold 25000% of the play to investors, in order to finance a musical they were confident would make a small loss (being a cheap musical). They would then pocket the money from the investors, minus the loss. Because the IRS wouldn't take any interest in a play that made a loss, they would never have to cover their tracks. They would use the investors' money to finance a luxurious retirement in Rio.

Illegal? Maybe not according to Judge Alito. However, it is clearly more than entrepreneurial.

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Simply look to this section of the script:
Leo: You could raise a million dollars, put on a thousand dollar flop and keep the rest for yourself.
Max: But what if the play was a hit?
Leo: Well if it was a hit then you'd go to jail. Because, if it made any money what so ever you'd have to pay off all the backers, and with all those backers there'd never be enough profit to go around.

I'm tired of following my dreams. I'll just ask where they're going and meet up with them later.

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[deleted]

It can be illegal but isn't that what hollywood producers do today look at King Kong 207 million to make it he probably has investors lined up to me because it won't fail but if it does that sucks just like the movie

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--It can be illegal

Oh, its illegal, all right.

-- but isn't that what hollywood producers do today

I assume that, the movie having been around nearly 40 years, the IRS or SEC or whoever would even bother to look into a huge flop.

-- look at King Kong 207 million to make it he probably has investors lined up to me because it won't fail

Well, but in the case of King Kong, the various investors were only promised a total of 100% of the profits, so you can pay them all.

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If King Kong were to flop, the studio would assume the loss. There is no such thing as "Investors" in the movie business. Studios put up the money, and absorb the loss or profit. If the loss is impactful, the studio bankrupts.

Dr. Cynic Has Spoken

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No such thing as investors in the movie business? What do you call the stockholders? They invested in the company to get it started. It's not quite the same as the direct investments portrayed in "The Producers," but they are most definitely investors who want their money.

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lawrence142002 --Where did you get your info?

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Lawrence,
There are investors in the movie bussiness, because not all movies are backed by a "Studio". Yup, they call them "Independents"

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maybe not in the movie business,

but there definatley are in the theatre business.

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Lawrence, a new business entity is formed for every new movie. The film's producers
raise the money for the film and they have to find Investors who will put money into the film in return for some share of the profits if the film is profitable.
The studio itself doesn't put up the money. They find outside sources of capital.




"Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?"

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Lawrence, a new business entity is formed for every new movie. The film's producers
raise the money for the film and they have to find Investors who will put money into the film in return for some share of the profits if the film is profitable.
The studio itself doesn't put up the money. They find outside sources of capital.




"Joey, have you ever been in a Turkish prison?"

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Carolco is a good example. Cutthroat Island flopped hugely which bankrupted Carolco. Though technically they were on the road of bankruptcy before Cutthroat Island, Cutthroat Island's blockbuster of a flop pushed it over the edge. An $88 million+ loss, I believe.

-Nam

I am on the road less traveled...

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"The Producers" were amatuers. If you want to see real money wrangling, check out the excellent articles over on Slate:
http://www.slate.com/id/2117309/

Here's how it works: Germany allows investors in German-owned film ventures to take an immediate tax deduction on their film investments, even if the film they're investing in has not yet gone into production. If a German wants to defer a tax bill to a more convenient time, a good way to do it is by investing in a future movie. The beauty of the German laws as far as Hollywood is concerned is that, unlike the tax laws in other countries, they don't require that films be shot locally or employ local personnel. German law simply requires that the film be produced by a German company that owns its copyright and shares in its future profits. This requisite presents no obstacle for studio lawyers.

The Hollywood studio starts by arranging on paper to sell the film's copyright to a German company. Then, they immediately lease the movie back—with an option to repurchase it later. At this point, a German company appears to own the movie. The Germans then sign a "production service agreement" and a "distribution service agreement" with the studio that limits their responsibility to token—and temporary—ownership.

For the privilege of fake ownership, the Germans pay the studio about 10 percent more than they'll eventually get back in lease and option payments. For the studio, that extra 10 percent is instant profit. It is truly, as one Paramount executive told me, "money for nothing."

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It is not illegal to take a risk by investing alot in a project that might fail. Someone may want to take that risk, but that is because there is the possibility of a big payoff if the project is a success. The trick in The Producers is that they schemed to make a flop and got hundreds of people to make a relatively small investment but, since they own a large share of the profits, with the promise of a big gain if the play is a success. It was fraud because they lied to the investors about the nature of the investment. They could only lose their money, but there was no chance of success. They sold high percentages to hundreds of people, so in fact, they told those people they were buying 50 % or 100 % of the profits, when in fact they were buying only 1/10th of 1 % or something tiny like that.

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And you know, there was the whole, uh, blowing up the theater thing... not so much with the legality there.

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[deleted]

Spoiler Alert!

If I remember correctly, the movie ends with them putting on a jailhouse play and committing the same fraud all over again.

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[deleted]

It didn't seem to me like they were doing the fraud over again. Between the few men Leo talked to, it equalled 100%. *shrugs* Maybe I missed something.

"The only creatures evolved enough to convey pure love are dogs and infants." - Johnny Depp

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"It didn't seem to me like they were doing the fraud over again. Between the few men Leo talked to, it equalled 100%. *shrugs* Maybe I missed something."

If you didn't think that they were doing the exact same kind of scheme again, then you definitely missed something. There were a bunch of "investors" lined up, not just the three or four we saw talking to Leo. Plus, where would be the humor in the scene of him collecting the money if they weren't doing the scheme again?




You won't catch a monkey that way.
Did you ever catch one?
Did I - lady, you'd be surprised.

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It didn't seem to me like they were doing the fraud over again. Between the few men Leo talked to, it equalled 100%. *shrugs* Maybe I missed something.


Sorry but that is not as I remember it. They sell 50% to two prisoners in the queue. Then someone says that the warder wants to back the production and Max says "tell him he now owns 100% of the production". So just in those three people in what was a long queue they have sold 200%. So yes they were definitely doing the same thing again

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Nope. First gets 20%, second gets 30%, and the warden gets 50%.

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Nope. First gets 20%, second gets 30%, and the warden gets 50%.


Yes I made a mistake. But even so at that point they have already sold 100%, and are still seen to be seliing to people in the queue. So my point that they are doing the same thing again still stands.

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They have loads of money already, before we see them sell 100%. So they've already sold other percents to lots of previous customers. Ergo, more than 100% has been sold.

http://www.46664.com/

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The problem was that if the play was a hit, you would never have enough profits to go around to pay off all the backers. Leo mentions that. This is why most producers don't do this scheme.

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[deleted]

But also there can never be enough money to pay off the backers. Put simply if a play cost $6000 to produce but they raised $12000 by selling 100% to 2 people then they would have $6000 left. If the play doubled it's money then both backers would demand $12000, meaning they would owe $24000 but only have $18000. With the amount they raised for Springtime for Hitler, they would have ended up owing Billions.

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It's been adequately explained by numerous replies. What nobody has mentioned is that a possible origin of the concept is found in Ayn Rand's "Fountainhead" (the novel, not the movie, for which Rand wrote the screenplay). In it, the hero is an architect who is shunned because of his dedication to his principles of architecture. He is sought out by the developers of a vacation home project in a remote area to design the project. They are convinced that given the location and his adverse reputation the project is doomed to failure, so they sell 200% of interests in the anticipated profits (feeling certain that there will be no profits) and that those to whom they sell the interests will chalk up their losses to their bad luck, allowing the developers to pocket the parts of the sales not needed to build the project. But of course, our hero's wonderful design leads to a fantastic success, the scheme is uncovered and the developers go to jail. It's at pages 507-514 of the novel.

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Believe me, Mel Brooks nor Ayn Rand were the first to think of this scheme.

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Please give details of any prior documented scheme.

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Ripoff of Curtain Call 1940

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032373/

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Actually it is not, and here is why:

Max and Leo appealed their convictions and the case went all the way to the United States Supreme Court. In "Bialystock, Bloom and Springtime for Hitler, Ltd vs. The State of New York" - Justice Scalia writing for the majority opinion said:

"the investors are capitalists and the free market should be able to dictate the consequences, not the State - otherwise we are just Russia. Whether the play is a hit or not is immaterial - they risked their money and lost. That is the American way. Just because they are old ladies is too bad - they have lived off their husbands and the government (social security, medicare) for too long! They got value for their money - to be part of a hit Broadway play and 2 hit movies! The appellants have every right to benefit from the investors since they took all the risk and should be rewarded!"

Therefore, in a 5 to 4 ruling the Supreme's released Bloom and Bialystock from Attica Prison and they went to work for Mitt Romeny's Super PAC.

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Actually it is not, and here is why:

Max and Leo appealed their convictions and the case went all the way to the United States Supreme Court. In "Bialystock, Bloom and Springtime for Hitler, Ltd vs. The State of New York" - Justice Scalia writing for the majority opinion said:

"the investors are capitalists and the free market should be able to dictate the consequences, not the State - otherwise we are just Russia. Whether the play is a hit or not is immaterial - they risked their money and lost. That is the American way. Just because they are old ladies is too bad - they have lived off their husbands and the government (social security, medicare) for too long! They got value for their money - to be part of a hit Broadway play and 2 hit movies! The appellants have every right to benefit from the investors since they took all the risk and should be rewarded!"

Therefore, in a 5 to 4 ruling the Supreme's released Bloom and Bialystock from Attica Prison and they went to work for Mitt Romeny's Super PAC.

Interesting post, but also total rubbish. The IRS would quash any appeal that they tried to lodge against their convictions.

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