Mistake adds depth


Fairly early in the film, the young hero Paul gets into an argument with the Monsignor. Though I don't have the exact quote, Paul says something to the effect of "I'm an atheist! I don't know whether God exists or not."

Now, it seems likely to me that this confusion between "atheist" and "agnostic" is just a slip on Anthony Hinds's part. However, it adds a charming depth to Paul's character. He is a student, after all, and this slip up shows that he is the type of student (probably just as common in the 19th century as in the 21st) who has been educated beyond his intellectual capacity. He wants to be heard using the word "atheist," so people know how smart he is. Paul's real education comes later in the film, and by then, for him, the difference between "atheist" and "agnostic" is rather a moot point.

Sometimes a blunder can be felicitous.

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I feel like I just read out of a text book

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Good point salamanderee!

Though originally 'Agnostic' and 'Atheist' meant the same thing, so really it is more 'In Period' that he says he is an 'Atheist'.

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He doesn't say "I don't know"; he says "I don't deny it, I just don't believe it". Which could mean that he's an agnostic. Or that he's talking nonsense.

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[deleted]

Nice point. Well put. Sensible and sane.

I would be perfect were it not for my excessive modesty.

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You should see it again.
He doesn't say anything which would make him agnostic, he clearly states that he does not believe that god exists; making him an atheist.
I saw it just yesterday and I'm sure of this.

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if you notice at the very end of the film, PAUL MAKES THE SIGN OF THE CROSS.
THUS THE ATHEIST HAS BECOME A BELIEVER BECAUSE OF DRACULA!

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Using your enemies fears against your enemy (this case cross against Dracula) does not make you a believer in those fears.

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If you want horror - tune in the news channel.

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But he was not using Dracula's fear against him.

He made the sign of the cross after Dracula was already dead.

So he had become a believer. Why not, after all he had experienced? It makes sense...

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But he was not using Dracula's fear against him.

He made the sign of the cross after Dracula was already dead.

So he had become a believer. Why not, after all he had experienced? It makes sense...

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There may be more vampires out there, Dracula being dead aside. It is smart to be safe. Oh sure i bet he believes in vampires, not so much god.

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The spirit of abysmal despair

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You might want to watch that scene again. First, there are no other vampires in the film for Paul to be guarding against. Dracula is it. Second, Dracula is dead, and when Paul crosses himself, he is looking down at the scene of Dracula's demise, where the cross is on which Dracula was impaled. He crosses himself at that moment, looking down at the cross and what remains of Dracula, and nowhere else. He's not looking over his shoulder for 'more vampires.' Third, if there actually were more vampires, Paul crossing himself wouldn't be any kind of guard or protection - you would have to present a cross to the face of a vampire to protect yourself; crossing oneself as Paul did doesn't do a damn thing as far as the threat of vampires is concerned.

Of course anyone can interpret the scene however they wish, but the most logical one is this: Paul crosses himself after watching Dracula die and hearing the priest's prayer at the scene. Although he does not say 'amen' as is often said at the conclusion of a prayer, he does 'cross himself,' which is a common response from Catholics at the end of a prayer. He does this after witnessing Dracula's demise, then he and his girlfriend join hands while bells ring. I took that to suggest that the two will now be married, because he has now been converted, having seen all he has seen with Dracula, and how the apparent power of the cross defeated him. The only obstacle to their marriage had been Paul's atheistic stance, and now after crossing himself and taking Maria's hands while bells ring, the suggestion appears to be that he has a new-found faith and the two can finally be married.

On a side note, the naming of Paul's character might not be a coincidence. The biblical Paul did not 'believe' in Jesus until he was struck and blinded on the road to Damascus (in the biblical story, anyway). Only after this incident does Paul become converted and an apostle of the Jesus movement. Interestingly, the character of Paul is this movie is also not a believer until he experiences some fantastical events after which, he, too, appears to become a believer.

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Very true, fraankie. Uncle Ernst says 'So you DENY the exsistence of god?". And Paul replies with "I don't deny it, I just don't believe it." I love this movie.

http://www.dvdaficionado.com/dvds.html?cat=1&sub=All&id=squid_vicious

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Most atheists don't really know what they believe. They just want to impress people with their so-called "knowledge"...Anyway, in the movie Paul found out believing in God has it's rewards!

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Most believers don't know what they believe either. The difference is atheists will admit it.

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You don't know what you're talking about. Most people are raised to believe in A god. Now, because I don't believe in the Christian God, or any gods written of by man, does not mean A god "might" not exist. Belief in a lack of something doesn't mean a 100% denial of the possibility.
My point is, I won't believe it till I get proper evidence. That doesn't mean it couldn't be likely, I just need the evidence. Books written by people who knew nothing 2000+ years ago does not stand as evidence.

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"Proper evidence"? Just how do you believe the universe was created? Or the complex human body? Or plant & animal life? Did this just all somehow happen due to a big bang? Evolution is largely discounted as taught by Darwin.

By the way, many great books were written centuries ago. Do you also ignore them?

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What a laughable response. Even most intelligent people who believe in god accept evolution as fact.......because it's a PROVEN theory, like gravity. And as had been said before, there is more evidence for evolution than gravity, but because you can see the effects of gravity, you choose to believe in it but not evolution because you can't see it occurring. Interesting, you don't believe in evolution because you can't see it, yet you believe in god.

Also, you mentioned me ignoring old books. Yes, I ignore them when it comes to medical advice and anything scientific. I'm guessing you have a medicine man instead of a doctor???

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It's very interesting that Dracula's toadie is a priest and the hero is an atheist. That combined with the feverish colors makes for a terrific film, although not quite on a par with the Terence Fisher directed films that preceeded it.

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Mind you the end in which he believes in God (sign of the cross) is very Fisher-ish in someways....God is real in Hammer World, as is the devil... So it is in someways on par with the previous film.

The Priest in this was a toadie to Dracula but if you notice he actually saves the day!

Also Fisher wasn't really in to organised religion (even if he was religious) so I find it odd that he didn't make bad priests more often. He did usually make them stupid and ineffectual though.


"The face of evil is ugly to look upon. And as the pleasures increase, the face becomes uglier."

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As Vampires exist in the Hammer world it makes sense that God and the Devil exists.........some fanatical Atheists will not like this though.

Regards,
The Count

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The Monsignor is first depicted as being something of a jerk, but as we get to know him better we see he is mainly passionate in his belief, and acts in a dramatic fashion ultimately because he cares about his flock.

Paul absolutely is an atheist at the beginning of the film--and learns faith as a result of his experiences with Dracula. His lack of faith (and refusal to pray) the first time Dracula is impaled is the reason why the staking doesn't work!

I thought this was one of the best of the Hammer Dracula films, and largely because of the strong religious element in the storyline.

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Paul's faith ("faith" in the meaning of "stand in for your conviction and always tell the truth") is as strong as the monsignore's. at the end the old priest understands, that because of this inner strength only paul could help him against dracula, whether he is agnostic or "protestant" or atheistic or whatever. don't forget, this film was released 1968, the year of the student's revolts! so at the end the old system (the monsignore) goes one step toward the revolutionary (= atheistic) student, learning to respect the different opinion of an openhearted opponent, altough he would never share it. And according to this, I'm not sure if Paul really learns faith at the end! He just makes the sign of the cross, but that doesn't mean he has become religious suddenly. Maybe he just did it, because he has seen that it worked - he himself needn't believe in it. And maybe also, Paul, like the monsignore, has also learned to show some respect to the convictions of others. I think if he and the monsignore could meet each other again, they would go into argument again, but maybe each one with a slight more understanding or tolerance for the other one's point of view...

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The Count said... As Vampires exist in the Hammer world it makes sense that God and the Devil exists.........some fanatical Atheists will not like this though.

Actually fanatical atheists would be very rare. It is usually the religious who are fanatical.

Being reasonable and logical, and very sensible, even atheists would all agree that for internal consistency God and Satan could well exist in a universe that had vampires. After all they are all part of humanity's mythology.

That is the willing suspension of disbelief - so long as the story is consistent.

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When Paul's character is introduced, the movie takes a good piece of time to clearly demonstrate that he's a friendly, decent, honest person. This helps to set up and define his conflict with the Monsignor, who strongly chastises him for his lack of faith. Paul is never a bad guy...his only "flaw," in the structure of the story, is that he doesn't "believe."

I liked the character work in this movie quite a bit. The viewer has to pay attention to see the little details. Another horror flick with great character work is "The Blob." Much better written than you might think from the title........

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[deleted]

>Well Joss Whedon has no trouble dealing with Vampires and he's an Atheist.

The point I was trying to make, is that an atheist would no more believe in vampires than in God. They are both mythological inventions.

Joss Whedon makes TV programmes about vampires. that does not mean he believes they really exist.

I enjoy movies about vampires, ghosts and holy grails. That does not mean I believe they really exist any more than James Bond or Lara Croft does.

The original posting was about a script error, in which the character uses the term atheist when agnostic would have been more appropriate. Thtas all it was, a simple error by someone who wrote scripts without really understanding the meaning of the words used. It happens al the time.

I would be perfect were it not for my excessive modesty.

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It's interesting that a lot of the best fantasy and horror writers have been hard-headed realists who didn't actually believe in gods, demons, vampires or leprechauns (e.g., L. Sprague de Camp, Poul Anderson, H.P. Lovecraft; don't know about Bram Stoker).

I'm an atheist myself, but if I lived in a world where Count Dracula is definitely real, and keeps coming back from the dead, I might have to rethink that.

"The truth 24 times a second."

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''Actually fanatical atheists would be very rare. It is usually the religious who are fanatical.''

I am hardly religious, however, there are a lot of fanatical ''atheists''. Most atheists who follow pseudo-scientists like Richard Dawkins are rather fanatical and frightening to me, especially when they are pretty pseudo-religious themselves. I'd but them on part with fundie Christians, though at least they do not believe in Creationism.

''Being reasonable and logical, and very sensible, even atheists would all agree that for internal consistency God and Satan could well exist in a universe that had vampires. After all they are all part of humanity's mythology.

That is the willing suspension of disbelief - so long as the story is consistent. ''

I agree with that though. These films are not really saying that god exists in our world. Fiction is not proof. Nor was someone like Terence Fisher religious in the way that most hardcore Christians are. He was not a religious conservative and he believed very strongly in science. Freddie Francis, who directed this film, might be an atheist or an agnostic if I recall.

In the world of Hammer, ghosts, vampires, demons, gods, the Buddha etc. all exist. It is a fantasy world. I do not mean to say that gods do not necessarily exist in our world, however, if they do they certainly have less of a presence than in 'Dracula' films!

And this film is a fantasy, not a serious discussion of theology, all the rabid theists (joke) shouldn't always talk about how much this film is great because god exists in it. It is just a really good horror film because it is well made and well written, not because god gets a vague reference!

If you love Jesus 100%... keep it to yourselves, perverts!

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It's a work of fiction, I don't think atheists that watch vampire movies will be put off.

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most people mistake mistake athests and agnostics anyway

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According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism, Aldous Huxley invented the term 'agnostic' in the 1860's.
I'm guessing that the word didn't catch on until the 1870's in academia, at the earliest, and that it wasn't uncommon to use atheist in way that today means either atheist or agnostic.
What year is this movie set?

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What year is this movie set?


Well, let's see...

HORROR OF DRACULA is mid-1880s (1885, I think).

DRACULA PRINCE OF DARKNESS takes place ten years later, so 1895.

DRACULA HAS RISEN FROM THE GRAVE tells us a "year" has passed since Dracula perpetrated his desecration of the church in the opening prologue (although how he had time durin the events of PRINCE OF DARKNESS is an open question.

That brings us to 1896 (one year before Bram Stoker publishes his novel DRACULA).

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When the priest is removing the coffin from the grave you see that the deceased died in 1905. This is a grave (pun intended) error in chronology.

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I have always thought that Father Sandor in 'Dracula: Prince of Darkness' just says 'ten years' meaning 'about ten years' like some people wouls say in real life...making that one actually at least 1904...may be streching it a bit but I think the grave takes precendence when it comes to continuity (as it's easier to write off what someone says).

"Nothings gonna change my world!"

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As Dracula's death in 'Prince od Darkness' must take place vetween the opening scene of 'Risen' and the rest of that latter film, the years work. 1904 for 'Prince', then the 'Risen' scene of the dead girl in the belltower, then a year passes (as per script) and rest of 'Risen' is in 1905. This all seems logical. The only troublesome aspect is the apparant lack of advances in technology or fashion between the original 1958 Hammer Dracula and this 1968 one.

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''As Dracula's death in 'Prince od Darkness' must take place vetween the opening scene of 'Risen' and the rest of that latter film, the years work. 1904 for 'Prince', then the 'Risen' scene of the dead girl in the belltower, then a year passes (as per script) and rest of 'Risen' is in 1905. This all seems logical. The only troublesome aspect is the apparant lack of advances in technology or fashion between the original 1958 Hammer Dracula and this 1968 one.''

Good points. Yes, this film does seem to be set in 1905, so the one before would be 1904. The lack of changes in fashion and technology is interesting, but it can be explained that they most of the characters are ''Transylvanian Saxons''* (like Ernst and his family), Hungarians (like Father Sandor) and Romanians (ironically rather rare as main characters in the film), and thus they live in a very remote and cut off region. I have noticed that the characters drop the starched collars throughout the series though, with hardly a starched collie nary to be seen in 'Scars of Dracula'. 'Scars of Dracula' also features a Parabellum-Pistole ''1908'', or ''Luger'', which were started to be mass-produced in 1900.

* Not actually ''Saxon'' as they were mostly Fraconian. These Germans, like the Hungarian Magyars and Szeklers (another Magyar group) were more privileged members of Transylvanian society; the native Roamnians were mostly considered to be simple peasants.

If you love Jesus 100%... keep it to yourselves, perverts!

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Traditionally an atheist is absolutely sure there's no God while an agonstic questions things.

Edit: I just saw the scene and he definitely, specifically says he does not believe in God.


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[deleted]

OK here goes, although I will be profoundly "corrected" and vilified for saying this: All "Atheist" means is, you don't have a god. Most specifly, you don't worship or pray to any supernatural being(s). If you take the Greek word "Theos", and put an "A" in front of it, it means "without god". So strictly speaking you could believe a god exists, and still be an Atheist. He may be real, bit he's (she/it?) is not your god. Although I have never met anyone who professes that. The majority of Atheists would NEVER say "I know there's no god". That would require all the knowledge in the universe, and if you had that, you would indeed be god yourself! The farthest you can go is to say "there probably is no god". So Atheists are Agnostics too, because they don't know for sure. If you take the Greek word "gnostos" (knowledge) and put an "A" in frort, it means "without the knowledge" or "I don't know for sure". Since they don't know if a god exists, they don't "believe" in god's existance, so they don't have a god either. So, Agnostics are Atheists too. So the terms are interchangable. But, in my humble opinion, we are ALL Agnostic! Because no one knows for sure about any of it. We may think we know the "truth", but all we really do is "believe". Believing is very diffrent from knowing. Since the very nature of a god would be infinite/eternal/unlimited which the finite/limited human mind can not comprehend, no one will ever know. It's all speculation. So why argue about it? Amen and amen.

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Now you're just playing with semantics. What it comes down to is perspective.

An agnostic believes that he does not know for certain and thinks that there is a chance there is a God.

An Atheist feels he is absolutely sure there is no God. Whether this is true or not is not the point, what matters is the certainty of the person to confirm the use of the term.

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I disagree. Most Atheists do not say "I know there's no god". Even Richard Dawkins says the farthest he can go is to say "there probably is no god." For anyone to say "I KNOW there's no god" would be just as dogmatic as the most fanatical theist who says he knows god personally. No one can prove it either way. Thus everyone is agnostic. And an Atheist simply has no god. That's all it means.

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Then they aren't really atheist. That is supposed to be the difference between atheist and agnostic.

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We're going around in meaningless circles. Let's just skip it. You go to your church, and I'll stay out of mine.

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I'm not Agnostic, I know for certain abs and common sense that there must be a God, and I've placed my Faith in that God being Yeshua Ben Yosef.

"SLaughter is the best medicine"

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A lack of common sense is the reason people believe in god. That's the point of faith. You don't require an ounce of evidence for believing.

If everyone was logical, logic dictates that SOME evidence is required for belief.

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I see where you're going with this but I think you are mischaracterizing atheists a bit. In my experience, atheists or non-believers take a scientific approach - i.e., they require tangible proof of the existence of a god. Lacking that tangible proof, they will draw the conclusion that there is no god. And as someone noted, a dusty old book from 2000 years ago is not proof in their mind. So your view that 'they really aren't sure' - in my experience anyway - is not accurate. To the contrary, they are very sure of their conclusion about no god, and will remain that way unless/until they are provided with conclusive proof to the contrary.

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The thing is I've found most people I know who call themselves Atheists are just Mad at God, they don't actually lack the common sense to know God exists.

"SLaughter is the best medicine"

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[deleted]

Exactly. This is the only response they can think of because they believe in something without evidence, so they make up reasons like this without evidence for the reason. As you stated, people can't be angry at things that don't exist. He might as well have said atheists are mad at unicorns while he's at it.

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