MovieChat Forums > Jôi-uchi: Hairyô tsuma shimatsu Discussion > Kobayashi eats Kurosawa.

Kobayashi eats Kurosawa.

posted 16 years ago by PostmortemG
27 replies | jump to latest

It's been 15 years or so since i began watching Samurai films. I started out watching Kurosawa's movies; despite all the hype, much of his work never grabbed me and commanded my respect, and i briefly lost interest in the Samurai genre when i learned that many critics consider his creations the greatest the genre has ever spawned. A few years ago i bought my Dad a bootleg Seppuku DVD-R for Christmas [ Before Criterion released it domestically as Harakiri ]; it's a film he always praised, but one i lacked enough faith in to seek out earlier. Anyway, i finally saw Seppuku, and it blew me [ And everything I've seen from Kurosawa ] away. It redefined the Samurai film for me. I soon learned about Samurai Rebellion, and actually avoided it for a while, assuming it couldn't possibly match Seppuku. Well, S.R. is another masterpiece i should've sought out earlier! It's marginally inferior to Seppuku, in my opinion, only because the initial pacing loses me a bit... but as this film's supporters already know, the tragic, blood-soaked finale is more than worth the slow build-up.

Kobayashi eats Kurosawa, because the former dares to be confrontational. I don't understand why the man's works remain obscure gems to this day, but maybe it's better that way. =D

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[–] heishiro 15 years ago

This is from a 1972 Masaki Kobayashi interview, conducted by Joan Mellen (found in Criterion's Harakiri DVD release):

JM: What is your view of Akira Kurosawa's place in Japanese film?

MK: Kurosawa-san's work's have had a tremendous impact on Japanese filmmaking. We cannot think or talk of Japanese film without him. I don't agree with those who say that his films have no direct connection with present-day Japan. They certainly have. I should say this, however. The present Japanese film industry placed him in a position where he could not create effectively. They ostracized him. I hold the opinion that Kurosawa-san is still capable of producing major films - now and then in the future. He is indeed a great artist.

[–] SamoanJoes 9 years ago

I always love hearing a great filmmaker complimenting another one, especially when they make the same kind of films.

[–] thecultofhorror 15 years ago

hey man, i think you might be alone in that statement saying that Kobayashi eats Kurosawa.

mention Kobayashi to a film buff and mention Kurosawa. infact, i saw Samarai Rebellion a few months ago and loved it but i forgot who directed it, i just knew it was a non Kurosawa film.

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[–] SuperGeneration 14 years ago

I'll say he's not alone. :P

[–] Pharaoh-in-de-Nile 13 years ago

"hey man, i think you might be alone in that statement saying that Kobayashi eats Kurosawa."

He isn't alone. I too prefer Kobayashi to Kurosawa. I do like both though.

"mention Kobayashi to a film buff and mention Kurosawa. infact, i saw Samarai Rebellion a few months ago and loved it but i forgot who directed it, i just knew it was a non Kurosawa film."

Any "film buff" worth his salt would know of and respect Kobayashi, an award winning and acclaimed director who gave us 'Seppuku'/'Harakiri', 'Kwaidan' and the 'Human Condition' films.

There have been a number of critics who prefer Kobayashi to Kurosawa. The fact that Kobayashi isn't as well known in the USA and some other countries doesn't mean that Kobayashi can't be considered as an equal or better than Kurosawa. I personally think Kobayashi is. I think he is up there with Ingmar Bergman (my all time favourite director) with Kurosawa slightly behind but definately in the upper-echelon of directors. I think Kobayashi's characters are more "human" than a lot of Kurosawa's characters, especially in regards to Kurosawa's earlier "Samurai" films in which they are somewhat "archetypal" rather than down to earth. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, and indeed many films suit that type of character but I do prefer Kobayashi's depiction of the human condition (pun intended) over Kurosawa's. However much of it comes down to personal taste and many of my favourite films are by both directors.

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[–] kirby-37 14 years ago

Why is it that whenever some folks find a film they like they feel compelled to make these kinds of irrelevant uninformed comments? The Kobayashi film is a fine film I loved it but it does nothing to affect the quality of Kurosawa's many masterpieces. And on one point the poster is off target completely. Kurosawa's films were just as revolutionary as Kobayashi's. Particularly Kagemusha, which was funded by great American film makers like Coppola in tribute to Kurosawa's profound influence on world cinema. As another poster mentioned, Japan's establishment had already ostracized Kurosawa for his blunt treatment of traditional Japanese themes and for his penetrating portrayals of the human condition so he could not raise money in Japan for his daring and often spectacular films. It may be that Kurosawa requires more patience and a longer attention span than films that emphasize drama and suspense over more subtle aspects of characterization and philosophical inquiry but neither director's achievement can diminish the other. But few insightful cinema critiques doubt that Kurosawa ranks at the top echelon of the world's great directors. Is there any director with more films among the top 100 films of all time? I doubt it. But like some other directors, for example Kubrick, you have to give every minute of his films full attention or you may miss the point completely.

[–] larma7 13 years ago

This films mind-boggling good. And I would agree that it pretty much torches anything I have seen from Kurosawa, whom I obviously respect but haven't been much of a fan of so far.

I would suggest Kenji Mizoguchi's "Ugetsu", which also blew me away, although it is not quite as good as this film (not a samurai film, either).

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] Fear_Of_Falling 13 years ago

I am suprised at the offensive remarks this topic is sturring. No one here is a idiot based on what has been said on this topic, it is a person's opinion. But I think you may be reading it the wrong way.

"There was a time when people respected film makers who were in the same league. Instead of getting into a pissing contest like some asinine elementary schooler."

See, I dont agree with this. Its not a "pissing contest". The OP is basing his opinion on how he like Kobayashi more and even though they may be considered by most in the same league as you say, he mentions how they are not treated in the same league as each other. Kobayashi gets absolutely no accolades, as another poster mentioned, he saw Samurai Rebellion and liked it and just called it a non kurosawa film, just completely forgot the director. Kurosawa is world wide renowned and considered one of the greatest by all including myself however I agree with the OP that Kobayashi is better. The only thing Kurosawa has going for him thats better than Kobayshi is he made more films and a majority of those films are straight up masterpieces. Everything I have seen by Kobayashi though is superior than any film Kurosawa has made, however like i just previously mentioned, it is only 5 films compared to the 15-20 masterpieces Kurosawa has made. Kurosawa is like the Steven Spielberg, Martin Scorcese, master hollywood director of Japan, his films are great and appeal to everyone while Kobayashi is more of the Kubrick of Japan where his films are more artistic, more meaningful and in depth, esthetic, not for everyone. But thats still no reason he isnt more well known and regarded in the same league as Kurosawa.

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] squeemu 12 years ago

For me it's a quality versus quantity thing. Kurosawa directed countless undeniable classics, including several non-samurai films that are just as good as his samurai ones.

However, Harakiri (Seppuku) and Samurai Rebellion affected me in ways I never thought possible from film. I was completely drawn in to both stories and emotionally drained by the end. I had ignored these films and Kobayashi in general, due to the fact that based on the titles of his films I figured he created typical hack and slash films. Boy was I ever wrong!

I haven't seen any of his other films yet, so I can't comment on their quality, but the fact of the matter is, his film output was fairly minimal. I don't know why he produced so few films, but with only a couple "classics" to his name, it's hard for him to be held in as high a regard as Kurosawa, even if his classics are among the best films ever made. I feel like if Kobayashi had made a few more films of such incredible quality, he would be much better remembered.

[–] jussi_m 12 years ago

That's a hard one.. But I'd say Kobayashi is my favorite. The Human Condition trilogy alone is absolutely amazing, Kurosawa never made such an epic, even Seven Samurai is not.

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[–] j_money77 12 years ago

It's really a matter of preference, and it's unfortunate for the OP that he didn't really state his preference in an intelligent manner. In fact, gems like "I liked Samurai Rebellion, but not as much because of the slow build up" isn't going to impress anybody on either side of the argument.

As for whether or not Kobayashi "EATS" Kurosawa. I say nay, but have only seen two film by Kobayashi, Rebellion and Harakiri, and thought both were great movies. I've seen 14 Kurosawa films, of various quality, but found Rashomon, Ikiru, 7 Samurai, High and Low, Yojimbo and Ran to all be great features. While Throne of Blood, The Hidden Fortress, The Bad Sleep Well and Kagemusha were all almost great. Stray Dog, Drunken Angel, Sanjuro and Red Beard I all enjoyed too.

Truthfully, i'm pretty impressed by both of their works, and look forward to watching more from each director.

[–] VaticanAssassinWarlock 12 years ago

I've now seen two films from each director and at this stage I entirely agree. I watched Seven Samurai a while back, and then recently Rashomon, both of which left me quite cold. I didn't dislike them but wasn't particularly stirred by them and I wasn't very invested in any of the characters. The two Kobayashi films that I have seen, however, completely flawed me. Hara-Kiri and this are beautiful, haunting films that completely draw you in and leave you feeling devastated. The performances, the cinematography, the sound are all wonderful, and the action, when it arrives, is brutal. The action in Seven Samurai felt extremely dated, while the action in Hara-Kiri (admittedly made 9 years later) stands up to any modern action film.

So currently I agree with you, Kobayashi has become one of my favourite directors while, to date, Kurosawa has only left me dissapointed.