MovieChat Forums > The Graduate (1967) Discussion > Fall aparts in the third act?

Fall aparts in the third act?


I feel this movie falls apart in the third act.
The first 2 acts seems great build up, a movie that effectively shows post college malaise.
Ben struggles with his place in the world and neglects the expectations of his WASP parents, starting an uncertain, exciting relationship with the inscrutable Mrs. Robinson instead.
I think the last great scene is in the car with Ben and Elaine.
Then in the third act, Ben starts acting like a creepy stalker and out of nowhere Mrs. Robinson takes a villainous bent.
The last scene in the bus was amazing though!

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I'm not an expert, but I think the rescue of Elaine at the church was the third act. The "creepy stalker" was part of the second act. And I didn't see Mrs. Robinson take a villainous turn (or being inscrutable, for that matter). She was a consistent character throughout the movie: manipulative and emotionally hard. Ben's relationship with her was "exciting" in some sense, obviously, but it was warped from the beginning. It wasn't an "instead" rebellion against the expectations of his parents, it was a perverse variant - kind of sad parody - of their world.

I'm not sure I would describe Ben's parents as WASPs either. Their ethnicity wasn't particularly defined, though some read the family as Jewish. In any event - even if they were technically Anglo-Saxon and Protestant - they were well out of the setting in which the term really applies.

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I would basically agree about the third act. The film turns into a romantic comedy, with Ben going after Elaine, and the silly church wedding 'rescue'. The first 2/3 of the movie are pretty engrossing and well done, showing Ben's ambivalence and insecurity about the future. It seems to make little sense that he would end up following his parents' original expecation (being with Elaine) in such a bizarre, sitcom-style way.

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I thought the whole story worked, and that Benjamin's later behavior -- stalking Elaine in spite of the hopeless situation and her understandable dislike/ambivalence toward him.

Mrs. Robinson was villainous from the start. Her manipulation of Benjamin at his graduation party when she practically forces him to drive her home then keeps up the pressure on him with deceit and misdirection, putting him in an impossible situation where she knows he won't be outright rude to her because of their respective ages and her status as his parents' friend, rises to sexual harassment. She knows exactly how to handle him in any situation to get her own way. She's hard and cold, only occasionally showing a little humanness.

That last scene WAS awesome -- a culmination of the story and its terms.

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It most definitely was sexual harassment. Ben felt very uncomfortable and did not want to be in that situation, but she manipulated him and forced him to keep sticking around.

Just picture if that same situation had been been between Ben's dad and Elaine instead.

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The 3rd act was every bit as important to the soul of the movie as the first two.

The whole movie is about the generational divide. Mrs. Robinson married someone she didn't love out of societal pressure and lived an unhappy life. Ben was well aware of this (that's why he kept asking her about it).

Elaine would have headed in this direction had she married the man that was arranged for her. Ben basically wanted to save Elaine from repeating her mother's mistakes, at all costs.

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'Elaine would have headed in this direction had she married the man that was arranged for her. Ben basically wanted to save Elaine from repeating her mother's mistakes, at all costs'.
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Ben was being self-less for Elaine's sake, and wanted to save her? I just think Ben wanted what he wanted, and that Elain was a younger version of her attractive mother.

Actually, Ben was as selfish as Mrs. Robinson, for pursuing Elaine when she asked him not to. She wasn't the only girl in the pond. What was his compulsion to even want a date with Elaine, aside from seeing her nice portrait in the bedroom? Why couldn't he stay away from Elaine, out of respect for Mrs. Robinson? He's acting clueless why Mrs. Robinson would be upset for wanting to date her daughter after screwing around with her. I could say he did it out of spite, but that's likely not it.

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I never said he was selfless. I said he wanted a younger version of her mom who would be more impressionable to his way of living than her father's.

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You missed the point. This is what you said, and the part I was addressing;
< "Ben basically wanted to save Elaine from repeating her mother's mistakes, at all costs.">

Still, you responded as if I said selfish, I said "self-less". I hyphenated the word previously to make sure it would not be misread.







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I'm a little lost.

He responded exactly to what you said: selfless (or "self-less").

He posited an interpretation of Ben's "saving" of Elaine at the church as being something that benefitted Elaine. You responded in what I read as a scoffing tone, characterizing his argument as: "Ben was being self-less for Elaine's sake." He disagreed with your characterization of his argument, saying that he didn't mean to say that Ben was selfless.

Incidentally, on a related note, I think you misread one significant part of the narrative.

Ben desperately tried to avoid going on the date with Elaine. He had no interest in dating her whatsoever. He only went because his father threatened to have a big dinner with the Robinsons, which would have been worse. In case the viewer missed that in the scene between Ben and his father, it was explicitly called out in a later conversation between Ben and Mrs. Robinson.

When he went on the date, he made every effort to make sure it would go badly, so that Elaine wouldn't like him, and he'd never have to go on a second date. It was only when Elaine broke down crying that he abandoned his plan and treated her nicely.

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He wanted it to work with the mother at first, but when he saw that the cougar ship was sailing, he basically saw Elaine as her mother in a time machine.

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Actually, Ben was as selfish as Mrs. Robinson, for pursuing Elaine when she asked him not to. She wasn't the only girl in the pond. What was his compulsion to even want a date with Elaine, aside from seeing her nice portrait in the bedroom? Why couldn't he stay away from Elaine, out of respect for Mrs. Robinson?
Ben doesn't initially pursue Elaine though. He agrees not to take her out when Mrs. Robinson asks him not to, but then his parents, who wanted them to get together, basically force him to ask her out. He doesn't intend to get involved with her, which is why he behaves rudely on their date and takes her to a strip club where she's humiliated. When she starts to cry, though, his humanity kicks in, and when they start talking honestly he discovers that he really likes her, and feels something genuine for her, in contrast to the empty sexual relationship he's having with her mother.

Elaine seems to really like him, too - until the sh-t hits the fan the next day. But I think Ben's feelings for her are very strong and he thinks he can persuade her to like him again, which is why he chases her. Of course he's not aware that Mrs. Robinson is telling lies about him and the nature of their affair.

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who wanted them to get together, basically force him to ask her out.
Force? You mean Ben could not say "no,thanks" at 22 yrs of age about who he is attracted to and wants to date? I don't believe that unless he is a clinical moron. So, if his parents told him to not wear blue jeans, or to not drive his car anymore, he would just do it because he was forced? That does not make sense. He was 22 yrs old.

Yet, it doesn't matter: his own impulse would tell him that it would be wrong, since he just had an affair with her mother. I think he wanted to date her as a plot device. No more, no less.







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Force in the sense that they keep bugging him to take her out and won't take no for an answer. They tell him that otherwise they'll have a dinner party and invite all the Robinsons over, which Ben doesn't want to have to deal with. He thinks taking out Elaine once will get his parents off his back, and if the date goes badly Elaine won't want to see him again, so problem solved. It's all in the movie.

And the reason he winds up liking Elaine is not that she's a younger version of her mother, it's that she's nothing like her mother. The movie also makes that pretty clear.

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I see, Dreamsville
Sounds like his parents were obsessed over it.

However, I would need to be in his place to feel the sense of his parents "not taking no for an answer". I mean, if anyone told me that they wouldn't take no for an answer, they wouldn't want to hear what I have to say.

Yet, underlining this is the plot device. In other words, let his parents invite them all over--that is still easier than going out on an actual date when you don't want to, and with someone you don't want to. In reality, I don't know if a "Ben" would do this.



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In other words, let his parents invite them all over--that is still easier than going out on an actual date when you don't want to, and with someone you don't want to.
I don't know about that at all. Can you imagine a dinner with Ben's clueless parents (and maybe Mr. Robinson too) going on and on about how Ben and Elaine should go out, while Mrs. Robinson is seething inwardly and probably drinking up a storm, Elaine is put on the spot and Ben is acutely aware of how awkward the situation is for all of them without being able to say anything about it? Doesn't sound like a carefree and fun evening to me.

And it wouldn't solve anything, it would just make things worse. I think Ben pragmatically saw asking Elaine out on a pre-emptive date as the lesser and more manageable of two evils, and figured he could handle it in such a way that it wouldn't continue to be an issue.

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. Can you imagine a dinner with Ben's clueless parents (and maybe Mr. Robinson too) going on and on about how Ben and Elaine should go out, while Mrs. Robinson is seething inwardly and probably drinking up a storm, Elaine is put on the spot and Ben is acutely aware of how awkward the situation is for all of them without being able to say anything about it? Doesn't sound like a carefree fun evening to me.
Well, yes, if that is how it played out. Or if they had them over for dinner, and didn't come on so pushy, that would be a different scenario. It's something we'll never know since it didn't occur. I was imagining Ben excusing himself and going to his room to lie down, like the earlier scene when they had the Robinsons' over (or that party they had)




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While the "stalker" scenes feel kind of random in the movie, I think they make sense for Ben's character. Marrying Elaine was the first original idea that he had in the movie, and it was the only thing that he had felt strongly about pursuing up until that point. We already know that he is super awkward, so it makes sense for his aggressive attempts to win her to come off as creepy.

Mrs. Robinson was a villain the whole way through. What kind of good intentions could she have for seducing a neighbor's awkward virgin son? She's either doing just for the physical fun or excitement, or as some sort of way to make herself feel younger or better about herself.

Ben was never going to find an easy solution to his problems, because there is no easy solution. He came to the conclusion that he definitely does not want the lifestyle that his parents have, and he rebelled very strongly against it in the 3rd act, but that doesnt automatically make his life better and give him purpose. He's in just as much of a mess as he was before.

I love that last scene on the bus. Their expressions are perfect. You can see the rush and excitement slowly fading to a realization that they have no clue what they are going to do with their lives any more than before and that they are still just as lost and unhappy.

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True. Creepy Stalker Was ACT TWO. Act Two can be titled BERKLEY. Act Three: CHURCH. Act One: MRS ROBINSON.

All Movie Reviews www.cultfilmfreaks.com

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The third act isn't as strong as the first two but that's what gives the movie it's soul.
I wouldn't say the movie falls apart but it's less exciting to follow than the first two acts.

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Putting aside the particulars of this film, I think the issue with the third act really amounts to a criticism of the way the narrative itself proceeded. The problem with that is OFTEN a film has to choose a particular narrative course in order to achieve a resolution of the themes and issues raised before. When we see the film for the first time, not knowing what that narrative will be, we have a much different experience of it than we do on subsequent viewings.

Some viewers prefer the plot driven film, while others enjoy films where the plot is relatively less important that the themes, or the performances, particular scenes or something else, or a combination of those things.

Whether one pegs the beginning of the third act as when Ben meets Carl Smith or earlier, I think this is where we see Ben's desperation become an issue, one that is increasingly apparent. It is a plot device but a plausible one that Ben simply does not have the time or recourse to pursue Elaine in some significantly more leisurely fashion. It is also plausible to his personality, having a general awkwardness that seems to preclude a more suave and refined approach (which may not have "worked" in any event). And perhaps most important that the time, a point perhaps lost on some today, is that Carl is portrayed as someone who would be clearly wrong for Elaine. Carl would be (and was) the kind of young man her parents would chose for her. Ben knew he was wrong, and while this of course dovetailed with his own interest in Elaine, it added an element of being the knight errant for Elaine, giving a nobility to his approach that imo overcame the stalker element.

In short those considerations belie any claim that the third act somehow failed the rest of the film, lost in some lack of plausibility. The specific course of the narrative also obviously underscored and fed into Ben's desperation. It also made sense that the Robinson parents would want to act quickly since both had perceived reasons for wanting to keep Elaine away from Ben.

Others have already in this thread addressed invalid criticisms such as the absurd notion that Ben viewed Elaine as some younger version of her mother, and to be desired as such. I frankly don't know how anyone could come with that conclusion. Elaine was quite different from both her parents, so much so as to raise whether THAT was the most implausible part of the film.

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I was in my last year of high school when this film opened; I saw it later that year when I was in college at UCBerkeley (We all laughed at the scene on the Bay Bridge when he's going west on the top of the bridge toward Berkeley which is east but who cares--artistic license)

As far as your comment, I don't know if you have to be as old as me to understand how different it was back then. Birth control, free sex, summer of Love. Ben and Elaine are my generation.

To me, it makes perfect sense that Ben pursues Elaine: you can actually *see* him falling for her in the car eating french fries. Until then he hasn't even smiled, fer cryin' out loud. She rocks his world BOOM just like that. As to whether the rest of his plan is well thought out...who knows?

But I can tell you I was in the back seat with my best buddy in 1969 going down south to the Big Sur Folk Festival with a couple of guys from the Oakland Army Base who offered us a ride, and about 3 hours later at a roadside stop for a quick dinner, me and the guy who had been driving the car and glancing at me in the rear view mirror, were in love (even if we didn't know it yet). We got married six months later. (We're still married, btw, three kids & six grandkids.)

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That's cool as hell!

Only the suppressed word is dangerous...
Ludwig Borne

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clomax,

My comment above from last summer was about the structure of the film's narrative. You have raised the subject of the basis of the Elaine Benjamin relationship, and while your own story is a great one, I think the relationship is somewhat more complicated than you suggest, as I believe is alluded to in the famous final scene.

I am aware that some perhaps significant group of viewers see the final scene as not only cautionary, but perhaps even an indication that the very sort of life Benjamin feels he has been fighting against having is now more or less what is going to happen to him. to be clear I do not sense that.

But The Graduate on some level has to be understood as on one hand about Benjamin questioning the direction and possible meaning of his life while at the same time, I think, not indicating that he has definitely found an answer.

Of course it is more than merely suggested that Elaine might be "the answer". There is certainly evidence she might be. As you and others have noted here, she not only changes his whole life's course, that first date with her acting as the narrative pivot of the story, she changes the way he looks at life and how to go forward. He moves from someone the story, Mrs. Robinson's use of him shows, as someone who life is happening to, albeit with many questions asked, to someone who begins to take control of his life. So much so that he risks being seen as a stalker of Elaine.

But we can also see why he is so attracted. She is smart, beautiful, self confident, moral in the right way, and even fun. To an almost implausible extent she is very different from both her parents, and therefore in the context of this film different from her parents' whole generation. To him she is new and different and real.

But do those things mean she is going to be his answer?

The film still contains much that makes one wonder however much we understand Benjamin's, and for that matter Elaine's, rebellion against their parents' overbearing control. But is rebellion the answer or merely some sort of however understandable reaction?

I think where one sees The Graduate as coming down on that question also speaks to how the relationship between them, at the core of this film, should be understood.

In that last scene, as their smiles fade, Elaine looking at one point at him and seeing a questioning sense of wonder, I don't see how an unvarnished sense of happiness is possible. At the same time all the ways in which Elaine and Ben are attracted to each other remain, but where do they go now? How do they avoid what we thought Ben was trying to avoid? How will Elaine with Ben be different from the groom she left at the alter?

To some extent The Graduate was very much of its time. No one knew exactly where the counter culture would go, but we can wonder at some possibilities for the two. Will they go on the road? Perhaps to some commune? Some urban bohemian existence? Or will Benjamin go into plastics, with a conventional life?

Or will they not stay together at all?

THis of course is an open ending, not only in terms of what happens next to the characters, but thematically. The theme of rebellion and intergenerational conflict but up against the theme true of all generations that what young adults choose to do with their lives is fraught with uncertainty and potential conflict. With compromises and acceptance as well.

My own view of their future is optimistic enough based on what attracts them to each other being solid enough, that they will stay together. But they will also have to find an answer what to do in the next stage, after rebellion has carried you away from your parents, but to what? It won't be easy to find that answer.

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