MovieChat Forums > El Dorado (1967) Discussion > Better then Rio Bravo

Better then Rio Bravo


It is said to be based on Rio Bravo. But it is better then Rio Bravo. This movie has better character development then Rio Bravo.

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[deleted]

I agree, even though Rio Bravo is regarded as the superior film. I think Bob Mitchum and James Caan make the difference.

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Everyone in this thread is out of their minds, especially the OP, who I don't believe saw the first film.

Rio Bravo is infinetely superior in so many ways it's not even worth going into. El Dorado is a fine film, but it loses a vast amount of its edge when you see how blatantly it riffs Hawks' earlier masterpiece. Hawks was bound by studio obligation to create something, anything, so he regurgitated all of the elements from his previous experiment and lazily altered a plot detail or two so it wouldn't appear identical (though it basically was and he failed in covering up the blatantness of it...then again, I don't think he cared one way or the other.)

About the only things you can commend El Dorado for are it's entertainment factor, Robert Mitchum as the drunk (though not surpassing Dean Martin's performance), and James Caan's charisma, which brings a flair to the role of the naive gunslinger that was missing with Ricky Nelson's interpretation.

Other than that, every single component of Rio Bravo, from the languid pacing, relaxed atmosphere, fun characters (recipients of outstanding development), and great dialogue unite to create an unparalleled, unshakeable charm that El Dorado simply cannot attain.

"...if that was off, I'd be whoopin' your ass up and down this street." ~ an irate Tarantino

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[deleted]

You do know, of course, that Hawks is a notorious recyclist? You know that Rio Bravo itself contains much "riffing" on previous Hawks films, especially To Have and Have Not, from which it cribs bits of and pieces of the scenes between Bogart and Bacall for use between Wayne and Dickinson? That To Have and Have Not in turn used a line from Only Angels Have Wings? That Hawks also remade his own Ball of Fire as A Song is Born? To criticize Hawks's recycling as "lazy" or uncaring is a ridiculous, as he did it so often and with such gusto. Indeed, Hawks comes close to a great jazz artist in this regard, "riffing" expertly.

ecarle has a wonderful post somewhere on this page that makes a great case for its uniqueness. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061619/board/nest/55345088. I don't think I can say anything to improve on that. Ironically, he notes that, when the film appeared, few critics besides Andrew Sarris even bothered to note the similarities between El Dorado and Rio Bravo. Now that's the only thing anyone ever talks about.


Mhm. All that said, SeanJoyce was absolutely right.

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Rio Bravo is superior to what? Just trying to get past the incredibly too-wordy dialogue (especially for a western) -- enduring Charlie Brackett's (?) bid for literary greatness -- and going out for cups of coffee during Dino's and Ricky's irrelevant, intrusive song breaks -- are full-time jobs.

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There is a 3 minute segment where Walter Brennan, Deano and Martin sing two songs.

It's a classic scene.

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Agreed.

It's pretty obvious that OP saw this before Rio Bravo.

I mean, Deano, Walter Brennan...Rio Bravo is infinitely better.

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I liked El Dorado a lot, but I definitely have to side with Rio Bravo.

As for the recycling of old material...
I love the old Howard Hawks reference from an old Ebert review (while talking about prod Jerry Bruckheimer recycling his own stuff for Coyote Ugly):

There is a story beloved in movie lore about the time Howard Hawks asked John Wayne to appear in "El Dorado." Wayne had already starred in Hawks' "Rio Bravo" and "Rio Lobo," which were essentially the same picture. So was "El Dorado." "Shall I send over the script?" asked Hawks. "Why bother?" asked the Duke. "I've already been in it twice."


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"It's such a sadness that you think you've seen a film on your *beep* ing telephone. Get real."

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Well either Ebert or you got the facts wrong: Rio Lobo came AFTER El Dorado. About 4 years after.

But why spoil a good story with the facts?

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Okey doke, now have you gotten a chance to come down from your marijuana high and rethink this?

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"El Dorado" is my favorite western. I'm from Tucson and am interested in any movie made at Old Tucson Studios, which both this one and "Rio Bravo" were.

"El Dorado" is much better than the earlier movie, IMO. I can barely watch "Rio Bravo": Walter Brennan and Ricky Nelson are embarrassing in that; and their counterparts, Arthur Hunnicutt and James Caan, are miles better.

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I thought Walter Brennan was excellent. I agree with the Ricky Nelson part though.


"Well, we put in wine because it's less noticeable. When it's in tea it has a distinct odor."

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Who cares which is better? We have BOTH of them so enjoy them and don't worry about which is better.

Many UFO/ghost skeptics are actually afraid it's all true and don't want it to be.

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I liked EL DORADO a bit better, even though RIO BRAVO has more original plot elements.

I've seen RIO BRAVO twice; I've seen EL DORADO 6 times. Most recently 2 days ago.

-CG

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"Walter Brennan [is] embarrassing in that"

I can't let this go. Opinions are subjective, sure. But anyone who thinks Walter Brennan, one of Hollywood's finest character actors and, incidentally, three time Oscar winner, was embarassing in anything pretty much forfeits the right to critique films with any credibility.

FWIW, I like both movies, though I'd have to say Rio Bravo is easily the better film. However, neither movie is among my favorite westerns or favorite John Wayne films. Indeed, neither movie can hold a candle to Hawk's earlier Red River.

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This is a good question. But I would say El Dorado is the better film. Though Rio Bravo is right up there. But who played a better Drunk???? It is a Vertual Tie between Martin and Mitchum. Love watching Drunks in the Movies. Playing drunk on Stage in a few shows I Studied their Acting to learn the Tricks of the Trade.

Wished they put Rio Bravo and El Dorado on a Two Pack Move DVD. Now I have to find Bravo to round out my Collection of John Wayne Movies.

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A: It varies from person to person.
"Futurama"

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...by - Phillip Marlowe
...anyone who thinks Walter Brennan, one of Hollywood's finest character actors and, incidentally, three time Oscar winner, was embarassing in anything pretty much forfeits the right to critique films with any credibility...

Classic logical fallacy: appeal to authority. No number of Oscars makes an actor invincible -- nor his critics incredible.


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@wilmawilcat: If you'll notice, he used the phrase "incIdentally, three time Oscar winner," meaning this was merely a side comment to his main argument, which is that Walter Brennan was one of Hollywood's finest character actors. Of course, it was more a statement than a developed argument, but throwing in awards won seem to me a valid way of bolstering an argument even if not credible enough for a final conclusion. Also, an appeal to authority is only a true fallacy when it is claimed that this particular authority is infallible, and therefore their statements/beliefs/opinions must be correct. But appeals to authority are commonly used throughout every day logic in the sense that we trust certain authorities to be right, and pointing out what these experts think is generally a positive for your position. There is nothing wrong with this whatsoever, as long as the authorities you cite are actually trustworthy. Perhaps the Academy is not fully trustworthy, but in this case the argument seems reasonable that Walter Brennan was very highly respected by his peers, as one of only two actors (I believe) to have won 3 acting Oscars. Whether the fact that he was a great actor disqualifies anyone from speaking ill of one of his performances is another matter.



Anyway, I have to say that Rio Bravo is better. El Dorado is excellent, but a bit too complicated and goofy, while Rio Bravo has a classical perfection to it that few can top. James Caan is better than Ricky Nelson, but that's the only thing El Dorado improves. Otherwise, it loses the tension, subtlety, and character development in favor of more action and more plot. Rio Bravo is even funnier than El Dorado, though the latter seems to be trying harder. And while Arthur Hunnicutt is fine, Walter Brennan is immortal.

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stephen-morton, yes, the point would be that the poster's appeal to the Academy doesn't authorize him to pronounce that another poster "forfeits the right to critique films with any credibility..." At that juncture, he's ventured off topic and onto a personal criticism.

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Oh that's a pretty hard question which is better Rio Bravo or EL Dorado? Both are very similiar and not. When I was younger I liked El Dorado more as Rio Bravo. With the time Rio Bravo became the better movie for me but both are very entertaining .

"Well, nobody's perfect."

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I agree that El Dorado is better than Rio Bravo, even though most critics are on the opposite side of the fence from me. Its just more entertaining and the characters are better developed. That said, both are classics of the kind that they just don't make any more!

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What is better, Rio Bravo or El Dorado? I quote J.T. Chance, "It's close. I would hate to live on the difference."

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