War Crime


Would dropping hand grenades and gasoline on top of a combined group of Nazi's and their wives be considered a war crime. I am assuming that the women are innocent, a bit like the Jews in the gas chambers when Zyklon B was dropped on them. Was the gasoline meant to make the deaths more painful?
Someone had already considered the collateral damage to be worth it.

reply

I can't say either way if it was a war crime. But I can say that the act of killing the women along with the officers being atrocious is one of the main points of the film: the side of good did atrocious things to win.

reply

As International Relations scholar and one of the great thinkers of the "British School" of thought on war (as distinct from the "realist" view of power politics and statism), Marin Wight, stated: "War is a normal [and natural] expression of human nature." And "war will continue to be a human inevitability."

As for atrocities in war, they are all but unavoidable; a near absolute and certainty.

For an example of the Allies committing horrific atrocities in World War II, one need only look at the firebombing and destruction of the German city of Dresden late in the war as an example of one the evils committed by the good guys.

It was an ancient and beautiful city with a rich history and unique culture, not militarily valuable in any real way; being home to neither a large military garrison nor industrial factories located anywhere near the city centre. This was alluded to in RAF briefings before the bombing campaign began:

“The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front ... and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.

And yet this city, swollen to over 400,000 civilian residents and refugees (and scores of US POWs, like future author Kurt Vonnegut Jr, who would write about his experience of the bombing in his novel Slaughterhouse Five), was targeted over a concerted, three day bombing campaign with incendiary bombs. Bombs which, in a densely packed city centre of wood-framed buildings, were sure to create a conflagration of fire and flame that would incinerate anything which could possibly burn, and create vortexes of super-heated air which churned with such force as to actually pull people back into the buildings they were trying to escape.
From a survivor:
"The firestorm is incredible, there are calls for help and screams from somewhere but all around is one single inferno.
To my left I suddenly see a woman. I can see her to this day and shall never forget it. She carries a bundle in her arms. It is a baby. She runs, she falls, and the child flies in an arc into the fire.
Suddenly, I saw people again, right in front of me. They scream and gesticulate with their hands, and then — to my utter horror and amazement — I see how one after the other they simply seem to let themselves drop to the ground. (Today I know that these unfortunate people were the victims of lack of oxygen). They fainted and then burnt to cinders.
Insane fear grips me and from then on I repeat one simple sentence to myself continuously: "I don't want to burn to death". I do not know how many people I fell over. I know only one thing: that I must not burn.” —Margaret Freyer, survivor

There is no universally accepted and perfectly accurate number for the dead and wounded. All it seems that anyone could agree on was that the war could not continue in such a manner, lest the Allied forces come to own a land of rubble and ash.

Churchill himself questioned their own terror tactics:
“It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land... The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy.
The Foreign Secretary has spoken to me on this subject, and I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives such as oil and communications behind the immediate battle-zone, rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction, however impressive.” - Winston Churchill

And finally, an absolute truth about total war:
“That the bombing of Dresden was a great tragedy none can deny. It is not so much this or the other means of making war that is immoral or inhumane. What is immoral is war itself. Once full-scale war has broken out it can never be humanized or civilized, and if one side attempted to do so it would be most likely to be defeated. That to me is the lesson of Dresden.” - Robert Saunby, Deptuty Air Marshal at Bomber Command.

Humans have theorized, institutionalized and developed war over the millennia to make it more efficient; with advances in weaponry came advances in thought... and the continuing need to justify the actions of one side (your side, "the good guys") over the other.

As Saint Thomas Aquinas wrote, war was not a prohibited tool of government provided ii was "just" (thus neatly circumventing questions of "morality"), hence "war must be fought by a just means."



"War is hell. -William Tecumseh Sherman

reply

Wasn't Dresden done in response to the fire bombing of Coventry??

reply

The gasoline: The fumes would have ignited for sure which would have gotten everyone, and cooked off the stored ammo.

The grenades: there would be no guarantee that pulling the pin on one would explode the rest. and a lot of the explosion would go up the shaft, (path of least resistance)


You don't have to stand tall, but you do have to stand up!

reply

Probably. But also the use of enemy uniform (only permitted in espionage and sabotage).

This sentence has nothing to do with what I just have written above.

reply

That is why the first thing that Reisman and Walislaw did when they joined the rest of the team in the chateau was to get the German uniforms off revealing their GI uniform underneath.

reply

The gasoline was used to make sure that all in the cellar were dead because that was the Dirty Dozen's mission. The women weren't the wives of the German officers. They were prostitutes, mistresses, courtesans, or whatever you want to call them.

reply

I am not sure if it's a warm crime, but it was a scene that I found to be very uncomfortable with.

reply

No question about it...this was a very uncomfortable scene. Maybe that is why the generals chose killers to go on this mission, rather than just use regular troops. Their mission was after all to kill as many German officers as they could. Even one of the killers balked when ordered by Reisman to shoot the two junior officers they had captured. A lot of those civilians would have been killed as well had the mission gone off as originally planned. No matter what it would have been an uncomfortable scene to watch.

reply

I never thought of that before (the idea that the Dozen were chosen for this mission because regular troops might have been seriously uncomfortable or disturbed by some of the things it required). That's a great theory, thanks for it!

*****
People said love was blind, but what they meant was that love blinded them.

reply

Not really a theory; it's straight from the book (though I don't doubt the poster thought of it him/herself).

The book goes into much more detail about the whole project, and the fact that they ARE rapists, murderers and violent criminals is exactly why they were ideal. The powers that be wanted people who were violent and with minimal scruples so that they could indeed be sent on a mission to raise as much hell and sow as much terror as possible.

Whores will have their trinkets.

reply

"War crime" is a bs concept.

reply

"War crime" is a bs concept.



How's that?

something terribly clever.

reply

It's a concept that seems ridiculous to me, just like taking prisoners. You can't kill the enemy's civilians? YOU'RE AT WAR FFS! Why are there human rights in wars? I don't understand the so-called law of war. It's like "you can kill and massacre each other but do it nicely, kids are watching".

reply

There are different types of war: from low-intensity border skirmishes (Kashmir), to asymmetrical and guerilla war (the Viet Cong in Vietnam), to a war of attrition (the Western Front of WWI) to a war of all-out annihilation.

If, say, during World War 2, the Allies had recklessly and wantonly bombed targets with no regard for civilian casualties, or had actively sought to depopulate cities, then they would have come to own a ruined land of rubble and ash, devoid of life. Then what would the after war scenario look like? Germany wouldn't be an economic powerhouse and it wouldn't have been a check and buffer against the Soviets. The aftermath of a war must be considered from its outset. This is where the recent war in Iraq falls apart, the actual battles were easily enough won, but the was no "General Marshall", whose plan to rebuild Europe after the Axis capitulated is what helped usher in an era of economic prosperity. Contrast this with the Soviet's plan after WW2; having suffered terribly at the hands of the Wehrmacht, they were intent of making Germany "pay". One need only look at the contrast between East and West Germany to see how these two diametrically opposed plans worked. As Machiavelli said, in essence, "the ends must always be considered".

Taking prisoners is "ridiculous"? How so? They provide intelligence and they're used as bargaining chips (id est, if you mistreat or kill my captured soldiers, I will do the same, and worse, to yours). Again, look what the Soviets did to their POWs, most of them had been worked to death in Siberian camps by the mid 1950's. If you offer no quarter to the enemy, then they will be that much more likely to fight to the death, costing both sides dearly (exempli gratia, the Japanese--both civilian and soldier--in WW2 were convinced that the Allies would treat them just as horribly as they had treated the Chinese at Nanking, and thus fought to the grisly death or committed suicide). An army that refuses to take prisoners is that much more likely to find themselves fighting an even more determined and ferocious adversary, as they would view themselves as "dead either way".

For a holistic view on the outcomes of a war, consider the American Civil War. It was a matter of practicality and ultimate goals; Lincoln sought to reunite the nation (he invoked the concept of "perpetual union" as conceived under the Articles of Confederation, America's first attempt at self-governance), the wanton murder of prisoners and non-combatants would not allow the nation to heal and thus was antithetical to his goals.

If you do not understand the rules that govern the conduct of war then you must read about the Hague and Geneva Conventions and why and how they came to be. They cover everything from the treatment of prisoners of war (they cannot be murdered at whim and they cannot be forced to do work which benefits the war efforts of the nation holding them nor can they be pressed into service) to weapons and ammunition (the banning of certain bayonets and ammunition designed solely to increase suffering, and the ban on chemical and biological weapons). And as for the enforcement of these rules postbellum, look at the Nuremburg Trials and the trial of Slobodan Milošević by the Hague (though he died in his cell of a heart attack before the trial ended). Again, compare this to Iraq and the haphazard way the nation was handled after "Mission Accomplished", and the partisan and sectarian violence following the ad hoc execution of Saddam Hussein; it seemed done more to sate bloodlust than out of a desire to heal Iraq.

You must consider what every leader debating going to war does (or at least, should), what the end game scenario looks like, how to get there, and how to achieve a lasting peace after the war is won (e.g. whether The Treaty of Versailles created conditions favorable for a militaristic and populist leader to rise and again agitate for war). Carthago delenda est!**


**As legend holds, after the Roman victory over Carthage, the city was sacked and burned and the ground was sewn with salt so that nothing would ever grown there again....





something terribly clever.

reply

No, it's not a war crime.



WE GOT MOVIE SIIIIIGN!

reply

Would dropping hand grenades and gasoline on top of a combined group of Nazi's and their wives be considered a war crime.


Of course it would be a war crime. Soldiers in the field don't get to make up their own rules and dispense justice as they see fit.

---
Fowler's knots? Did you say ... fowler's knots?

reply

Believe me, people were talking about that scene the way we are on this thread when the moviecame out.

reply