MovieChat Forums > Persona (1967) Discussion > After My First Viewing, Here Is My Initi...

After My First Viewing, Here Is My Initial Interpretation...


Just watched this for the first time...

For starters – excellent film!

Here’s my take on things:

Alma and Elizabet are one in the same person. The theme of the movie concerns the validity/fragility of the ego. When humans interact, what they present to others and whom they are inside seldom match. All of the human emotions we relay to one another through language are like the scripted lines delivered by actors in a play/movie. Our “true” self yearns for genuine human connection, but our constructed, presented, outward ego is a kind of phony, sugar-coated, agreeable, anxious, shallow, and false representation of ourselves; it’s almost manipulative and arguably the cause of evil/what gives man the potential to do wrong. But, we all do it constantly.


There are moments when our self-reflexivity allows us to witness this semi-conscious process of willful “deception”, and we are forced to question what it means to be a consciousness – what it means to connect with others – what it means to truly love – what it means to truly act and “be” without any “phoniness” – pure, complete, unfiltered. Elizabet is a woman who was suddenly struck by this realization, and she became crippled by this information. She could no longer stand the lie that necessarily accompanies our consciousness – the insurmountable shame of having constructed a PERSONA that so many others (namely her husband and son) genuinely believe to be authentic. So, to prevent herself from further falsehood, she abstains from speaking to anybody. That way, she is safe – she cannot portray her PERSONA, her ongoing burdensome lie.


Alma is Elizabet’s “lie” personified. All of the existential crises that plague Alma are actually plaguing Elizabet’s consciousness – her ego. When Elizabet’s husband is finally shown on screen for the first time, he begs Elizabet to recall what she told him – something like: “We are but anxious little children, subject to forces beyond our control”. The “anxious little children” our all of our PERSONAE – our fragile little self-constructed egos that still harbor the naïve, childish, dream that genuine love and human authenticity are possible. He continues to say something to the effect of: “What we achieve together may not be love, but it’s the effort to achieve it that makes it good.” (Totally paraphrased that, haha – I can’t remember the exact line) The point is: even if true human understanding is doomed to be continually barricaded and prohibited by our anxious little PERSONAE, it’s our genuine will to connect in the first place that makes life worth living. Some may even call this endurance - this beautifully flawed will to truly be and love - “God”. It is this notion that Alma clings to for her survival, and it is this notion that Elizabet rejects as futile.

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tca,

You are entitled to your opinion, of course, but you may get something out of reading the Two Real Women and Possible Interpretation threads on this board.

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Kenny,

Firstly, thank you for the suggestions - I found both interpretations to be fascinating and well thought out. Isn't it great when a film has so much substance, so densely packed within it, that it generates a vast spectrum of possible interpretations? This movie was my very first experience with Bergman, and if his other works are anything like this...Let's just say I have a lot of viewing to do :)

It seems like the main point of contention concerning this film is whether or not Alma and Elizabet are, indeed, different people. Both interpretations you directed me to make compelling arguments for both sides.

One piece of evidence that was cited in favor of the "two real women" analysis, was the existence of the doctor and her dialogues with Alma near the start of the movie. This is definitely a good point.

However, I still feel that Alma and Elizabet are one in the same. It is my belief that Bergman intended this movie to be seen as an artistic medium - he wanted to continually remind his viewers that "Persona" is a movie, rather than ask them to enter the movie's self-contained universe and interact with it on its own terms (like most movies request of its viewers). In other words, we are not supposed to take the events that take place in "Persona" at face value and suspend disbelief in order to accept the movie as reality - we are meant to view the events in the film from a "meta-cinematic" perspective.

For evidence of this, I cite the very beginning and end of the film. We are bombarded with imagery of film reels and projector lights - we are confronted with brief shots that make us aware of the fourth wall (the tarantula shot from below) - we are shown stock film imagery from many different genres and eras. I believe that Bergman starts this movie this way in order to clarify, firstly and above all else, that "Persona" is meant to be viewed meta-cinematically.

Drawing upon my previous point that Alma is Elizabet's fragile ego anthropomorphized, it's as if Bergman is making a very intelligent and complex joke by including the scenes of dialogue between the doctor and Alma. It's like he's saying: "Our egos, our personae, are just roles that we play, like actors in a film. See? Just look at Alma, she's Elizabet's ego personified, and she literally IS a role being played by an actor in a film - THIS film. See? See how she's playing a totally functional character during the film's exposition? Haha, get the joke?"

Further evidence that this movie capitalizes upon a "meta" perspective comes at the end. Not only is the viewer greeted with the imagery from the beginning again (as if reminding us to interpret everything we just watched meta-cinematically), but the audience is also shown a shot of Bergman himself, as well as the crew, filming the movie we are watching.

It is primarily for these reasons that I believe Alma and Elizabet are truly intended to be the same person - Bergman continually gives us cryptic hints by reminding us to keep our meta-cinematic perspective and view this film differently than one would normally watch a film - to watch "Persona" being fully aware of it's artificiality as an artistic medium. We are asked to remain aware of the painter's "canvas" and not lose ourselves in the convincing reality of the "portrait" itself.

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tca,

On one hand I completely agree with you as to the purpose of the opening and closing sequences. They alert us to the way Bergman is telling us Persona is a consciously cinematic exercise. But to be frank I do not at all see how this supports or indicates that Alma and Elizabeth are the same person.

As you may have noticed from the other threads I acknowledged I used to feel they were/are the same. But for some reasons that might seem unrelated, as well as additional viewings of the film, I have come to conclude that viewing of the film is too limiting and ultimately unpersuasive. To summarize:

Persona in the context of other Bergman films. His major work that immediately preceded Persona was The Silence. Many assign more significance to The Silence's being the third, and the close, of Bergman's so-called trilogy where he put aside further ontological and theological explorations of the relation of man to God, or the lack in effect thereof. And it is true that Persona did not continue any overt reference to such relation. But the more direct connection, I think, other than the obvious one where both films concerned primarily the relationship of two women, is how The Silence was also overtly about difficulties of an existential sort in communicating between and among people. This general theme continued after Persona as well, in Hour of the Wolf's quasi-horror film context of a wife's difficulty communicating with her husband while he is suffering a breakdown of his own ability to relate to her and others, a similar increasing dysfunction in Shame's couple attempting to continue as such in the context of civil war and strife, and perhaps most significantly in The Passion. In the latter film the four main characters begin with different perspectives and personalities, and we see them search in each other and in their relationships for meaning and authenticity, against a backdrop of a somewhat unforgiving landscape and unexplained happenings in the surrounding society. In short the focus is on the Existentialist concept of being with others, the more significant consideration if you will than the purely psychological. Bergman's films in this period show an ongoing concern with attempts to find meaning with others by communication, and the limits thereof.

Persona as a social psychological concept. While all recognize that "persona" is a concept identified by Carl Jung, whose field obviously is psychology, it is the social aspect of the concept that is its hallmark. It is the mediating dynamic of the persona that is its most significant feature. The persona is how we interact with others, both each of ours and those of the people we are with. again, the social is primary.

The doctor's assessment of Elizabeth. By showing Elizabeth in the doctor's clinic, Bergman raises the question whether her muteness can and should be seen as a psychological issue. But he disposes of this in the doctor's assessment, instead saying Elizabeth chose muteness for reasons that to her seemed authentic. Again, this is an Existentialist perspective. The doctor's assesment also comes early in the film. The film's structure alerts us to the fact that the film has moved on from a psychological to a Existential-social perspective (being with others).

The Narrative Arc. While I consider Persona to be primarily a thematic work, it does have narrative elements. But if the subject of the narrative was a single person represented by two actors, one would think such narrative would explore tensions leading to some kind of resolution. Why does this follow (I ask since at least in theory it does not necessarily follow that such an examination MUST lead to a resolution)? But then what is the purpose of considering a single person portrayed by two roles or portrayals unless it is to get to some point about that person? In other words the dynamic of the use of two characters to portray a single person would lead to some resolution, either of the two coming together, or remaining apart. On a practical level Persona shows neither. (I appreciate this is a much more complex assessment than my simple conclusion would indicate, but this post will be long enough already! - I assure you I believe I have a mroe than adequate basis for this assessment.) Why then did Bergman chose the narrative elements he did in a film about an individual portrayed by two roles if they do not get to any point about that individual?

Instead the point is social - our personas may limit our ability to find genuine meaning in others, but do so for protective purposes (this is the point of the elements of psychological aggression and even some physical acts of violence or threatened violence in the film).

Of course any viewer of Persona will have to acknowledge that not everything in it is supposed to be viewed literally. But neither is it a film that is devoid of literal elements. To the contrary I think Bergman challenges us to reach conclusions about what is literal, what is not, and what perhaps may be some mix of the literal and something else. But if at least SOME of the film's events and elements are literal, then it does not make sense to view the whole thing as some kind of symbolic representation of the conflicts and developments within a single psyche.

I think it should be obvious, again not just from Persona but from Bergman's other films, that he is trying to explore subjects that have meaning to potentially all of us. While the struggles of a single person to deal with one's own conflicts can have meaning of universal application, it is more persuasive that there is universal application if the subject and primary frame of reference is social.

"This movie was my very first experience with Bergman, and if his other works are anything like this...Let's just say I have a lot of viewing to do"

For myself I am not sure I would recommend Persona as the first Bergman film I would watch. It is relatively difficult, although you seem to have done a very good "job" of understanding the way it challenges us. But it is the first one you have seen. I would merely respond that I think Persona is his best film and not all that similar as a cinematic exercise (even if thematically it relates to other of his films) to his other films. What should you watch next? I don't think his work needs to be seen in any chronological order (not even the so-called trilogy). I might start with The Seventh Seal (not to contradict myself, but I do think one should see The Seventh Seal before Wild Strawberries), perhaps immediately followed by Wild Strawberries ( or not!). Also I would recommend The Passion or The Silence next. Winter Light is also excellent but a bit tendentious. One of his early films like Summer with Monika is also valuable.

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