It was Henry VIII who was the baddy here.
The wickedness that was done by others was out of fear of this man.
I have heard that, just before he died, his last words were "Monks, monks, monks!".
Makes me think of those shawled wraiths which appear in 'Ghost' to carry away the wicked!
Spooky!
Not sure if it ever was done but I'd think the psychologist's would have a field day (many I think!) if they did a mental health analysis of the portly King. He had a prickly personality, eh??? And things we'd like to see: Henry..the patron saint of devoted husbands.
shareI`m sorry, but I think it`s wrong to demonise people (or indeed canonize people) who lived centuries ago, and the only things we know about them are things that other people (who often have an agenda of their own), have written.
That being said, you have to take the reign of Henry VIII within the context of the time. England was just beginning to emerge from decades of Civil War that had been brought about by disputed successions to the throne. Henry`s need for a Son was more than just a vanity project, he thought it was essential to ensuring a peaceful succession once he was dead. And its no going saying "Oh, but Elizabeth....." Henry wasn`t psychic, he could only look to the past to see what happened when a woman succeeded the crown (and back then I believe, only Empress Matilda had tried, and that also led to civil war).
KoA could no longer provide Henry with that much needed son, the marraige was dead anyway, and divorce among monarchs was nothing new..why should Henry have expected anything different? He had no idea of the lengths he would have to go to get what he believed he needed.
Most of what Henry did, he did to maintain stability in his Kingdom. He cracked down hard on The Pilgrimage of Grace, because it threatened national security. He executed Katherine Howard because she too threatened the line of succession (just imagine if she got pregnant by Culpeper and passed it off as Henry`s! Oh great, another civil war in the making). I`m not saying any of this is right, I don`t believe in the death penalty, no one deserves to die the way many did back then, but i`m a twentyfirst century woman, not a fifteenth century woman. If I was, i`m sure I`d view things rather differently.
Atheism: a non-prophet organisation!
So maybe will the "real" Harry stand up??? I think that of all the fellows who played the harp and wrote music he put to death more English notables than ever before and since. And maybe that fall he suffered had something to do with it???
shareI`m not claiming Henry was perfect, he was anything but. But we are talking about England in the Middle Ages, and its no pantomime.
I don`t think Henry VIII was mentally ill, poor Henry VI was mentally ill and look what happened there!! But Henry VIII was verging on the despotic.
Nor do I view this in terms of numbers. Its not that he killed more nobles (btw, I should imagine that accolade belongs also to Henry VI, who was king throughout most of the Wars of the Roses, whole noble families were wiped out then!), its` that the reasons behind it seem more despotic.
Henry VIII was a medievally minded King, who presided over a country that was going through the most tumultuos changes in the whole history of the country, and take also into consideration, the length of his reign (aeons, by the mentality of the time). Also, viewing this from a lofty 500 years later, he seems like a monster. We just see him, and not the bigger picture.
Atheism: a non-prophet organisation!
You know the thing that gets me with old Harry is that I can't believe he could practically wipe out a religion soley on the basis of his narcissism! I mean it's just not fair 16th century or 20th century!. He was a man with too much power on his hands....such a daft situation I think... ;-)...
shareHenry didn`t wipe out a whole religion, be fair. Catcholicism is alive and well, even in England. Henry`s faith was a heavily reformed version of Catholicism, he never fully renounced it. The Dissolution of the Monastries, and the capital that that generated was disgracefully wasted on pointless wars with France and Scotland. I`m not denying that, but you also have to admit that the Catholic Church at that time was in desparate need of reform. The corruption, hypocrisy and really, tyranny was rife. Cromwell and Cranmer et al had grand visions of what they wanted the Reformation to be about, I just wish Henry had listened a little more closely to them. But it wasn`t solely narcissism.
Atheism: a non-prophet organisation!
"The Catholic Church at that time was in desparate need of reform. The corruption, hypocrisy and really, tyranny was rife."
No argument there. Unfortunately, Cromwell's 'grand vision' didn't allow him to be merciful when he sent his hit squads in to the monasteries. Still it enabled him to further ingratiate himself with the king by using the plunder to fill Henry's depleted coffers.
The King's good servant but God's first
Very good points both. One thing which strikes me about Harry is that he reminds me a bit like Louis XIV. Both I have to say were cunning in governing but Louis i thought somewhat more subtle (maybe that's the French way??). He knew how to handle the Estates and had them in the plam of his hand. Now Harry practiced tyranny but I thought he wasn't as smooth as Louis was in executing it. Of course perhaps different times and a different culture but personality is a big thing in one how one gets along in life. I don't know but I'd like to argue that maybe Harry could've carried on a bit differently in managing his kingdom and those hangers-on and all who were just seeking stuff at court. Maybe he was a bull in a china shop at times due to his paranoia and stubborness!
shareNo-one could ever accuse the English of being subtle!
The King's good servant but God's first
heh heh or is it well.. being "miserable gits" as an Englishman has told me!!!!.....;-)...Will the real Ingles please stand up!...;-)...
shareAye that sums up the English, or as we Scots would say, the auld enemy ;-)
The King's good servant but God's first
TL...hmmmmm....I tell you I'm intrigued with you Scots. I've got a glimpse of the English and now it's time to check out your neighbors! One of thee days soon I'm going to get to 'Edinburra' and maybe travel around that Border Country of yours. I mean that's where the action was in those wars, eh???...;-)...
shareI`ve been meaning to catch a boat to Troon every summer i`ve lived here (N. Ireland), and I never seem to get round to it. I`m a Stewart myself, so there must be Scottish ancestry there somewhere, and one day, I WILL get there!!
Atheism: a non-prophet organisation!
"England, thy beauties are tame and domestic
To one who has roamed over mountains afar
O! for the crags that are wild and majestic,
The steep frowning glories of dark Lochnagar."
So wrote Byron, and he was English!
Aye, we didn't do so well at Flodden that's for sure! My ancestors came from the Borders, I believe they were murderers and cattle thieves! (Still no-one's perfect!)
Edinburgh is a city of two halves, the old and the new. The old city is by far the more interesting.
You can't come to Scotland and not visit the Highlands. Their beauty will take your breath away I promise.
The King's good servant but God's first
A Stewart? You're of Royal blood.
The King's good servant but God's first
HeHe, I don`t know about Royalty now! There must be Stewarts on every corner of Scotland?
Atheism: a non-prophet organisation!
Probably. Still you never know!
The King's good servant but God's first
My brother investigated our lineage, hoping to discover thanes and kings. (Mackay being a very noble name.) However, he only found sheep stealers on one side of the family and tinkers on the other. Hey ho!
shareOh I always knew we were baddies, we were a sept of the Campbell clan and then I married a Campbell! There are still places in the Highlands where they put up signs that say No dogs, No Campbells!
The King's good servant but God's first
Ah such a lovely place, such lovely people with exceptional backgrounds!...I hope they still offer a drop of tea to "foreigners" or will I end my days at the bottom of a loch from brigands on the borders, eh? .....;-)....
shareWell that might happen in Loch Ness, I mean we have to keep the monster fed ;-)
The King's good servant but God's first
hey TL that was a very good one!...I'll remember that when I'll be wading through Nessie's territory...;-)...but seriously I HAVE to make a pilgrimage to Scotland. I know I will be in Scot nirvana! And the haggis beckons!...
shareAh Ha, Ms. Tudor Lady. So the Catholic Church at that time was in desperate need of reform, however, today it is not? I hate to inform you but the corruption, hypocrisy and possibly the tyranny still exist. Ya know, like they say, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, this may be a perfect example. They did it then and the tradition continues. That is what I dislike the most with the R.C. Church, is their tradition. Ask the many altar boys what they think about their tradition.
shareOk Mr/Mrs/Ms fireandloosechange let's have a look at what you appear to be saying.
"So the Catholic Church at that time was in desperate need of reform, however, today it is not?"
The Catholic Church is constantly reforming, there have been many changes over the centuries although obviously the main doctrines remain.
"That is what I dislike the most with the R.C. Church, is their tradition"
Sadly some non-Catholics distrust Church tradition, although this tends to be due to ignorance of what it actually is.
"Ask the many altar boys what they think about their tradition".
The Catholic Church does not claim to be perfect, nor will it ever be because, guess what? It is made up of human beings with all too human faults and failings. You seem to be implying that paedophilia is something that is taught to priests in the seminary as part of 'tradition'. Yes there have been priests who have abused children, and yes, I am aware that in some cases this was known about by their superiors who did nothing about it. This was shameful and a gross betrayal that should never have happened. However, there are men and women in all walks of life who will use a position of authority to have access to children in order to abuse them. I have known many Catholic priests who are caring, compassionate and hard-working men. It is an insult to them and their faith to suggest that all priests are paedophiles.
Waiting for my Mr Colin Firth Darcy
Ah, the wonderful pedophile slur. I assume you wouldn't argue that teachers are evil because they have a very high incidence of sexual abuse (much higher than Catholic priests, in fact). Or Roman Polanski, for that matter.
"Some men will say we are traitors. Some will say we're patriots. Both will be wrong."
"The Catholic Church at the time was in desperate need of reform.The corruption,hypocrisy and really,tyranny was rife"
It is the same today!!!Religious denominations of any kind fit this bill but more so Catholicism.The world would be a much bet place WITHOUT man made Astral gods and religions.Read the books "One Light" author Jon Whistler and take it from there!!
No thanks.
The King's Good Servant but God's first
Henry wasnot a Midaeval Monarch. he was an arly Modern Monarch.
The 1500's was Early Modern, the Middle Ages ended in the 1300's, or at the latest in the ealry 1500's.
Whiel oem disagrement exists on when the Midle ges ended preiclely, no en described Henry the 8th as anythign but Early Modern.
I`m sorry, but I think it`s wrong to demonise people (or indeed canonize people) who lived centuries ago, and the only things we know about them are things that other people (who often have an agenda of their own), have written.
If Catherine Howard had had a child they'd still.not have been the heir.
shareHenry was a weak willed puppet being manipulated to do these things by others.
"It's not about money.... It's about sending a Message..... Everything Burns!!!"
Your historical opinions regardless, do everyone the courtesy of seeing the film before you comment.
§« The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters. »§
Just a question to the students of the period...
I'm just wondering if anybody or any group tried to assassinate old Henry.
Now I'd think he'd be a fellow that alot of people would like to put away say with a stiletto or a poisoned drink etc. And who was his spymaster? He apaprently did his job well since Henry wasn't bumped off.
I couldn't agree more.
He got his five or six wives killed.
Practically a serial killer,Henry the ripper.
He was one of the wvilest vilain of all time.
Henry VIII who as well being corrupted by power was going mad through syphillis.
Its that man again!!
Most historians now agree that Henry did not have syphillis.
Waiting for my Mr Colin Firth Darcy
If Henry had had sons by Katherine of Aragon, England would still be a Catholic country. Discuss!
share"If Henry had had sons by Katherine of Aragon, England would still be a Catholic country. Discuss!"
The break from the Catholic Church would not have happened then, but it might have happened eventually. Luther's argument was pretty compelling, and British citizens may have been ripe for rejecting oppressive, expensive foreign rule.
Oh, and also, why wouldn't the increasingly effective British power brokers want to increase their power by rejecting distant Rome?
Yep. None of the bloodshed of that era would have happened if not for Henry -- a better ruler would have figured out more sensible ways to solve his problems.
shareHenry has always been to me such a petty and petulant individual. A leader yes but arguably a poor one. AMFAS is great in that it asks would you work or not work for this guy? Problem was Henry always had a bunch who would work for him and revel in their obeisance to him.
shareHenry VIII was a greedy fat a$$ed blimp who exploded after he died. His coffin burst open in the middle of the night at Syon on its way to Windsor for burial and in the morning dogs were found licking up the remains. One witness claimed the coffin 'had been burst by the gasses evolved by the corpse'.
The weird thing is that at the time he was divorcing Queen Katherine of Aragon, he went to Greenwich and heard a sermon by Friar Peto. He compared King Henry to Ahab and Anne Boleyn to Jezebel, and he said if King Henry persisted in his course, then he would become like Ahab, and the dogs would lick his blood after he died.
Supposedly divine judgment for his desecration of the abbey.
If there is a villian in the play (as opposed to history) it is Richard Rich...he does what he does purely for his own personal advantage, and he conciously and knowingly betrays a friend, also for his own personal advantage....(mind you Rich doesnt come off that well in history either)
It is not our abilities that show who we truly are...it is our choices
Cromwell, and that slime-ball, Richard Rich, (I can't believe that was His Name, sounds like a comic book Character). With these two Characters, just proves no matter how innocent a Person is, They'll tell lies, and other things to bring Him down, to silence Him.
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