MovieChat Forums > Dai-bosatsu tôge (1966) Discussion > Ryunosuke was a destroyer angel

Ryunosuke was a destroyer angel

posted 20 years ago by rich-106
42 replies | jump to latest

You people missed the whole point of the fascinating movie. Ryunosuke was the destroyer angel of God and as such was hero-like. This angel, who wields a sword of death, is a well-known myth in the Bible but also exists in other cultures such as well. This a famous old story in Japan. During the time in the movie, anarchy and lawlessness are on the rise in Japan. Ryunosuke was sent by a deity to wreak vengeance on the wrongdoers. The irony of the movie was that because Ryunosuke lived amongst people who were weak or of low character so he was thought of being evil. He was not at all “sociopathic” or “pure evil” and a knowledgeable Japanese might take offense at this idea.. He acted upon the honorable principles of the Samurai. He constantly tests people to see if they are honorable.. Each of Ryunosuke’s executions is justified. Remeber that the grandfather, Kamatari, earnestly prays to Buddha for death. Ryunosuke is used to grant him his wish. He rightly kills Bunnojo in the exhibition duel because Bunnojo, as he expressed earlier, was trying to seriously injure or kill Ryunosuke . Ryunosuke would never give away a match because he his true to the code of Samurai which forbids such action. Ohama cheats on her husband and did not deserve any justice by the code. Later she is justifiably killed by Ryunosuke because she tries to kill him. If you pay attention to the movie all the swordsman he kills are planning murders of others or are trying to kill him first. He does not try to kill Shimada when he had a chance because Shimada did nothing wrong or dishonorable by defending himself. Hyoma was fortunate he did not meet up with Ryunosuke, since his revenge motive was unjust. At the end Ryunosuke is troubled, not by his killings, by the amount of evil people that he has encountered.

Compare this film to Eastwood’s “Unforgiven” which has a similar theme. By the way, the rushed ending and skipped episode in the movie was due to the director’s inability to fit in all the material of the story into the normal time length. He expected to make a part 2 and part 3 but never was able to do it.

[–] Sensei_Tohru 20 years ago

Thanks for that. Very interesting.

[–] votok 20 years ago

Thanks for that information.

I always was assuming that he was merely a monster.

My view of his sword style was such that it ONLY worked when someone tried to attack him. Mifune beat his style by simply killing almost all of the assassins who he fought with in the snow and basically sneering at Shimada as unworthy to attack. It really upset Ryunosuke and was the only time his sword style FAILED (to the extreme detriment of his faction). He was unable to adapt to an aggressive style to counter Mifune's utter mockery of him by not attacking. The only way I can justify the ending is that this failure ended up totally consuming Ryunosuke...who finally went insane and berserk in the end, trying to kill the rest of those he had allied himself with (perhaps to blot out the memory forever of his failure). Or the ghosts of his evil deeds caught up to him as is the obvious way it seems to happen...

BUT - I really wished that a different ending might have been done to show the final show-down with the Student who practiced so hard on a fatal thrust to counter the evil sword style. I found the scene of him thrusting into the light beam particularly ironic if Ryunosuke is representative of an angel, as you say. Interesting . . . [The scene itself of this practicing is unforgettable).

The film deserves a DVD release someday over in region 1

[–] 20 years ago

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[–] Sensei_Tohru 20 years ago

Have you seen Sword Of Doom?

[–] lartrak 19 years ago

I might have misinterpreted your post, but the ending sequence where he is attacked by tons of people is only happening in the character's head - at least, in the original story. The character is eventually blinded and stuff later on in the story (I'm not sure what the format of the full story is - legend, fable, novel?), and thusly the character seeking revenge when he finds him is unable to do it.

[–] roninmlb 19 years ago

Uh, besides the fact that it is never mentioned in the film that Ryunosuke was "sent by god" as an avenging angel, what did that old man at Diabatsu Pass do to deserve to die, other than ruefully wish it upon himself?
Certainly Ohama is evil, but, why was it necessary for Ryunosuke to cut down the mother of his child in maniacal cold blood? If in the original novel Diabatsu Toge he is an avenging angel, so be it. In Okamoto's adaptation he is portrayed as a maniacal, bloodthirsty, crazy, swordsmen.

[–] rich-106 19 years ago

The "destroyer angel" explanation is a reasonable interpretation of an otherwise difficult to understand movie. Simply saying that the movie is only about a crazy person and nothing else reduces the movie to a low level. The old man didn't just wish death but prayed aloud for it in the presence of the image of a diety. Ohama wanted to kill Ryunsoke and also wanted to die, as I recall. As far as "deserving" to be killed, none of the victims deserved to be killed in the traditional moral sense. They were killed because a diety ordered it. In the bible God sends the destroyer angel to kill entire armies. Angels are considered executors of God's judgment. Angels were involved in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:1, 12-13). God used angels in bringing the plagues on Egypt (Psalm 78:43, 49),sent the destroying angel to execute the firstborn in Egypt at the Passover” (Exodus 12:13, 23), and King Herod was also killed by an angel (Acts 12:23).

[–] roninmlb 19 years ago

Hilarious. You don't need to quote the Bible to me...I have studied religious history most of my life.

Other than the opening murder of the old man, the fact that Ryunosuke appears after he prays to die, (a weak implication at best) it's never implied in the foggiest bit that "god" has anything to do with Ryunosuke's actions in Sword of Doom.

I also find little connection between the vengeful god of the old testament and Kihachi Okamoto's Sword of Doom.

[–] lordhood 19 years ago

Ryonuske prepares to attack toshiro mifune and even challenges him he is not a destroyer angel he only imagines the people pleeing for their death, if you watch carefully the old man tries to run when ryonuske draws his sword to srtike and the woman is suprised when he stabs her.

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] killaflix 19 years ago

I was wondering if this movie is kind of like SEVEN SAMURAI and Twilight Samurai(both of which I love)? Im searching for more Samurai movies like Seven Samurai and any help would be great THXS.

"Now if any of you sons of b*tch's got anything else to say now's the *beep* time" O-ren Ishii

[–] rich-106 19 years ago

Is it like Seven Samurai (SS)? Well it has many samurai and much sword fighting and death. It has many subplots. It differs from SS in that the plot comes to no firm ending and the central character is enigmatic, unrevealing, and unemotional until the end. He never explains his motives, he just acts. Other characters in the film and viewers think he is either evil, insane, or good. His own father says he must be stopped. Is he evil? Well, he only attacks when others "ask" for it. He waits for aggression and counters it with a perfectly executed killing. Others in the film plan murders for revenge, political advantage, defending honor, or pure hatred. He seems insane since he is like a robot no guilt or emotion. Yet he takes in a mother and child of someone he killed. As you can see the is more baffling than SS which is a great film.

Seems if you read the user comments and discussion board you you could make a decision.

[–] jackmac86 19 years ago

I assumed the boy was his own, a product of him raping her.
Which also supports what you are saying. He raped her, but if I am not mistaken, she wanted him to do it. She was also dirty for wanting to divorce (if she could), and not being married to the man she lived with anway.

What an amazing movie, there is nothing like a black and white widescreen samurai movie, especially one as dark as this one. The cinematography of the snow fight can not be beat.

p.s. If anyone likes Nakadai, Hara Kiri (Seppuku) is another somewhat similar samurai film of his that kicks *ss.

[–] hidden_fortress 19 years ago

If your looking for more Samurai ficks, check out Yojimbo, Sanjuro, Zatoichi, the Lone Wolf and Cub series or even the anime Samurai X Trust & Betrayal.

[–] MovieBro 19 years ago

I can't compare it to Seven Samurai.In my eyes they are slightly differant films atleast pace wise and definitly plot but each are just as great as the other.Both have killer cinematography and plot.I just watched Sword of Doom for the first time and love it.

Anyone know any literature I can look up destroyer angels?other then the bible.

Hollywoods doing a good job at making me wanna see more Independent films.

[–] Nukiuchi 19 years ago

Rich-106: "He does not try to kill Shimada when he had a chance because Shimada did nothing wrong or dishonorable by defending himself."

--

Ryunosuke: "One Day. One day, I promise. ... [in response to Hama's remark about him killing everyone in the world] Not everyone. But my sword will get Shimada Toranosuke one of these days."

It's true that calling Ryunosuke a monster, and completely demonizing him, is a misunderstanding of his character, but I believe that angelicizing him is an equal misunderstanding. Ryunosuke is somewhere in the middle, a man with a set of morals quite different from many others. You make valid points regarding the fact that Ryunosuke lived amonst those who were of weak character, but calling him a "destroyer angel" sent by God/miscellaneous religious deity is overdoing it by quite a large margin.

I don't see any divinity in Ryunosuke's killing of Kamatari, it was just a matter of chance, and probably his only truly unjust kill. It seemed more like Ryunosuke was on the verge of perfecting his style, and the execution of Kamatari was the culmination of this. Do notice that the jingling of Kamatari's bells unsettles Ryunosuke, and it is the reference to the grandfather which opens the final stage of the movie. Ryunosuke believed he was in the right by executing an individual who openly wished to die, and thought nothing of his action afterward, but being reminded of what he had done by Omatsu triggered a confused, violent reaction from his subconscious.

He realizes a flaw in his morality, and in this state of complete confusion, he hacks and slashes furiously at hallucinations of Kamatari, juxtaposed with his more justified kills, while being relentlessly taunted by the words of Shimada.

Is Ryunosuke really -right- in his actions? Is he wrong? The beauty of this film is the ambiguity of Ryunosuke's morality. It's not something that people should just write off so easily by labeling him a monster, and in the same vein, 'sent by God'. He is a mere mortal with his own system of belief, a system of belief that is both unorthodoxically correct, while at the same time open to many holes that eventually confuse and erode his soul.

[–] SnakesOnAnAfricanPlain 19 years ago

Yeah god's always sending his 'angels' to rape women in order to provoke the husband to want revenge. I'd rather 'miss the whole point' and assume he is a confused samurai who doesn't really udnerstand his purpose and lives through his sword. Like many people have pointed out he is certainly not some pure devine force, afterall he DOES want to kill Shimida.

http://www.ymdb.com/user_top20_view.asp?usersid=8136

[–] rich-106 19 years ago

I wasn't going to respond until I saw your personal list of favorite movies. By some freakish twist of fate, your list is very similar to what mine would be. Not many people would put the Passion of Joan and Ikiru on the same favorites' list as Lawrence of Arabia and Reservoir Dogs, but you do; and, so would I. I can't decide what this means but it does bother me. I've made an appointment with a psychiatrist to talk it over. Hopefully he will not turn out to same one you've been seeing.

FWIW I agree that the "destroyer angel" idea is a bit extreme but I don't recall Ryun raping anybody. Wasn't the woman quite willing? It has been a while since I've seen the film.

Happy film viewing.

[–] SnakesOnAnAfricanPlain 19 years ago

No she doesn't seem that willing. She begs for Ryunosuke to let her hus..brother win but never says i'll sleep with you if you do. She meets him at the mill and he tells her to take off her sash, she does but not willingly. Then he advances on her and it is clear she is resisting him. You just sort of see the hay moving and quite a struggle. So I am pretty sure he rapes her and do not believe god would send an angel (even of the destroying variety) who would rape a woman. Good taste in films you have, so I respect your reading of the film it's just not my own.

http://www.ymdb.com/user_top20_view.asp?usersid=8136

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] rich-106 19 years ago

So you think it is farfetched? How could this Japanese movie based on a popular Japanese book be based on a Bibilical concept? Oh ye of little faith, seek the path of enlightenment. Perhaps Nakazato and the movie was more influenced by the West than you think. Read a knowledgeable essay about of Sword of Doom by Geoffrey O'Brien. In it he says:

"...its author, Kaizan Nakazato (1885–1944). Nakazato, a sometime telephone operator and assistant teacher, avowed himself a literary disciple of Fyodor Dostoevsky and Victor Hugo and was deeply influenced by Christianity and Socialism..."
Note the "deeply influenced by Christianity" part.In other words Nakazato was not writing in isolation of the Western World. If you check out Victor Hugo and Dostoevsky you will see references to angels, avenging angels, and fallen angels in their works. Angels were a big deal to novelists in those days.

and

"Ryunosuke is the archetypal fallen angel of early modern Japan, a figure who elicits sympathetic identification by the uncompromising intensity with which he follows his path, even if the path seems to lead into darkness."

http://www.criterionco.com/asp/release.asp?id=280&eid=405&section=essay

Stop insulting people. Try some real research.

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] rich-106 19 years ago

There is too much to do here.

For some reason you can't stand the idea that Ryunosuke might not be evil despite evidence to the contrary and the opinion of others. There are such things as euthansia and self-defense,you know; but it's up to you. Believe what you want. I'm giving up on this one with you.

You claim that "you are missing point" is an insult and that since you think it it is, that calling someone a "crackpot", "idiot", "stupid" in return is acceptable. What's funny about this is that it is a Ryunsoke-like reaction.
When Ryunoske believed he was attacked he felt justified in attacking the person right back in spades. This you called evil. Yet you do it yourself. Could you be a Ryunoske in the making?

Let's move on.
I am curious to check into this idea of yours that I have a "review" on the "main page" ""without spoilers" The facts are that I have no external and newsgroups reviews of this movie on the main IMDB page or anywhere else. I have one user comment that has a clear spoiler warning in it. I have message board posting that does not require spoilers. This "review" that you mention does not appear to exist. Can you tell me where, like a specific page, do you think this "review" is?

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] rich-106 19 years ago

Your reply is reasonable and well-written.

I am currently reading the novel on the which the movie is based. The book i have is a 1929 english translation that is very difficult to find these days. It is fasinating to read and makes the movie even better. It reveals some key details about the plot and characters that the movie inexplicably left out. When I'm finished reading, I'll post the revelations and the startling answers to the many mysteries of the movie. I can say this much. The author did not feel that Ryunosuke was psychopath nor was he inherently evil nor was he a "force of heaven".

Check back in a week or two.

[–] th1a90 19 years ago

He was not at all “sociopathic” or “pure evil” and a knowledgeable Japanese might take offense at this idea.. He acted upon the honorable principles of the Samurai. He constantly tests people to see if they are honorable.. Each of Ryunosuke’s executions is justified.

Where in your theory does Ryunosuke killing Ikaturo (most likely his son) fit in? And if you want to argue that we don't know what was Ikaturo's fate, recall that in the final scene in the movie, when Ryunosuke is being confronted by the ghost's of the innocent people he has slained, we often hear a baby's cry.

Ikaturo's slaying aside, I do agree that the writer and director made it so that all of Ryunosuke's killings were seemingly justifiable and not mearly out of malicious caprice, which is why the viewer simpathizes with Ryunosuke and does not percieve him as a "sociopath" or "pure evil."

But the fact that Ryunosuke unjustly kills his son invalidates your "hand of god" theory and also serves as a reality check for the viewers who were simpathetic to Ryunosuke and reluctant to believe that his reasons for killing were strictly sadistic.

[–] Dantès 18 years ago

This is a question to the original poster.

You said "you people" are misinterpreting the film.

Who people? You're the first poster. Are you just saying that so you have a reason to write your post?

[–] viper2544 18 years ago

SPOILER ALERT!!!

Reading through these posts makes me want to point part of the plot out. People are arguing if Ryunosuke [Ryu] is good or evil, but pay attention to how the story unfolds. The trouble really begins when he is asked to throw the match. This includes Utsuki's wife coming to him and accepting his terms, more or less. This leads to Utsuki divorcing his wife, and wanting to kill Ryu, leading to his own death when he attacks Ryu after the match is declared a draw. Through much of the rest of the movie, Ryu is simply reacting to circumstances around him. He lives his life in the same way he fights: he does not attack, he only ripostes. Much of his destiny through the movie is decided for him in these early minutes when he is asked to throw the match to a weaker opponent. Were he not to have been asked [arguably] the match would not have ended with Utsuki's death, it would have been a draw. Thusly, the remainder of Ryu's destiny would have unfolded much differently.

Painting Ryu as good or evil is moot, for he is generally only reacting to other's actions. This is how Shimada [Mifune] beats him, and why Ryu is so troubled by their encounter. Ryu is useless as a tool of action, he is merely a man who reacts. He could not beat Shimada because Shimada would not attack. Ryu's shadow style is only a defensive style, comprised of parries and ripostes. He became weak because he realized he was not invincible. Whether Shimada set up the entire encounter to weaken Ryu's mental ability is enough for an entire new post.

Anybody have thoughts? Comments?

[–] Schaphra 18 years ago

viper2544, I agree with you :)

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] CappnCrunch 18 years ago

" Where in your theory does Ryunosuke killing Ikaturo (most likely his son) fit in? And if you want to argue that we don't know what was Ikaturo's fate, recall that in the final scene in the movie, when Ryunosuke is being confronted by the ghost's of the innocent people he has slained, we often hear a baby's cry. "
yes but correct me if im wrong because i havent watched this movie in awhile but dont we also hear the cries of the grandaughter after her grandfather is killed.
Anyways, Im not sure if I agree with this angel theory but I think that the fact that Ryunosuke appears right after the man prays is interesting. And the scene where the man is practicing the thrust through the sunlight could be a hint.

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] rich-106 18 years ago

I have read the novel and changed my mind about. I can answer some of the questions about this movie. See my new post in this group:
Secrets of Sword of Doom-I read the novel #1 (spoilers).