MovieChat Forums > The Blue Max (1966) Discussion > LIKE BAMBI IN REVERSE

LIKE BAMBI IN REVERSE

posted 18 years ago by rogerc210
30 replies | jump to latest

Sounds rather unbelievable. These may seem like the last 2 movies that would be compared to each other. They do however have at least 1 important thing in common. They both featured protagonists the audience would have a conflicting relationship with in real life, In Bambi, it's deer-whome we hunt, in Blue Max, it's WWI Germans- who were our enemies. From that standpoint, any inclination I may have to route for Stachel or any of the other protagonists had to be tempered by the fact that those were our boys they were straffing & blowing out of the sky.

I liked the way someone described this feature as the Lonely Hero In A Cruel World genre turned upside down. I would agree that most of the characters in the squadron were much more likable & easy to identify with compared to the George Peppard character, Brunno Stachel.Perhaps when the protagonists were our enemies in real life that kind of inversion makes the story by compensation more credible. The squad leader's emphasis on chivalrie may have enphasized the way Germans could have been kidding themselves into thinking they could win the war. WWI seems like a strange war,in that it's hard to tell just how "bad" the Germans were & how "good" the Allies were. Hitler was still in the trenches-later to be taken POW where he writes his famous book. Head of the Luftwaffe' Herman Goering was in the Red Baron's Flying Circus Squadron,later to assume the Red Baron's position upon his death. I'll get back to Goering.

Brunno Stachel effectively qualified as a credible protagonist because his arrogant way of doing whatever it took to win put him ahead of his time as far as THe "Fatherland's" vision of it's future was concerned. Germany's acceptence of it's terms of defeat would soon escalate into a "He who breaks the rules makes the rules" way of waging war.

I liked the part where Stachel saved the Red Baron's bacon, & barely survived getting shot down himself, when another ally got on his "6". Von Richtoven, after treating him to champagn Von Rictoven Offered him a spot on his squadron, which he ironically declined. If he joined the FC, & survived long enough for Goering to succeed Von Rictoven, I have a feeling Goering & the fictional Stachell would have gotten along pretty good. Or not. Maybe their common arrogance would have had them at each other's throats. Otherwise, an alternate sequel in a case like that might be a WWII feature where Stachell & Goering are prominant members of the rear eschelon 3rd Riech.

[–] bazv 18 years ago

The movie had a different ending from the original novel ie the Squadron Commander was the one to get killed in the monoplane.Jack D Hunter wrote a sequel called ''Blood Order''which takes Stachel into Nazi Germany,I dont remember too much about the book other than the opening line which went (something like)''Bruno Stachel is back you sons of bitches''
The book was not such an easy read as Blue Max,maybe because of less flying content,but may be interesting to re evaluate now i have grey hair!

[–] theragtopguy 18 years ago

Jack D. Hunter actually wrote three books taking Stachel all the way into WWII. The Blue Max, The Blood Order, and the Tin Cravat.

I have all three, quite interesting to read.

Man, that Ursula Andress sure was HOT in those days.

[–] bart75028-1 18 years ago

rogerc210

A nitpicking point on Hitler. I don't think that he was ever a POW (though I'm too lazy to research it right now), but I'm very sure that he wrote "Mein Kampf" while cooling his heels in a German prison for a year (give or take)following the failed "Beer Hall Putsch" in Munich, November 1923.

Rolling through the Zen room.

[–] jamescmcd 18 years ago

Yeah, that's right. He was imprisoned after making the Munich Putsch, 1920.

It's funny that should come up, because the reason Hitler made the Putsch was to overthrow the government he believed had wrongly ended the war.

The Germans were not losing the First World War by any means, as suggested earlier. As seen in the film, there were many more German planes than Allied planes, and German pilots were often more skilled. On the ground, the Allies often only won battles by gaining a few metres of extra ground - the Germans could easily have held out for longer. This is why Hitler was so furious when the "November Criminals" signed the Treaty of Versailles - he believed they could have still won.

[–] theragtopguy 18 years ago

Maybe they could've held out for a short period, but the blockade was starting to have a effect by 1918. There were many food riots like the one shown in the Blue Max when Stachel and Heidemann are on their way to see Field Marshal von Klugermann.

Also by summer 1918 the Allies were outnumbering the German Luftstreitkrafte substantially in the air.

[–] petereit 18 years ago

The Germans were not losing the First World War by any means, as suggested earlier.

This is known to historians in Germany as the "stab-in-the-back-legend", and it was created by the Nazis.

The revolution in Germany did NOT put to end a war which could still have been won. This is simply wrong. The Germans were already losing the war bigstyle, and the revolution was the reaction of the German people to that. One of the first big revolts that later on developed into the revolution was actually started by sailors in the German marine who refused to go on an obvious suicide mission that was dreamed up by the admirals who wanted to "go down with a bang".

[–] Tarasicodissa 18 years ago

After the spring 1918 offensive the Germans were spent.

They were exhausted, out of young men, and completely demoralized by the entry of 160 milion fresh Americans into the war.

There were very, very many more Allied planes than German planes. Remember the order Stachel deliberately disobeys not to engage the enemy ? He got the greenhorns in his squadron shot up because he wanted to run up a score for his own greater glory.

The German line in the fall of 1918 was a like a busted pipe springing more leaks than Germany could plug. The Allies, with hundreds of tanks, were punching holes at will clear through the German trench lines to the open country behind and the German Army was staggering back to Belgium like a punch drunk fighter hoping to be saved by the bell (in their case, winter).

I love Stachel's decision to rescue von Richtofen because it was so in keeping with his character.

He knew a Flying Circus triplane when he saw one so this was obviously an ace German pilot. What better way to build up a rep than saving the butt of someone who already has one ?

And to show him up in the process. The first thing every fighter pilot is taught is to keep his eyes open in all directions and Richtofen wasn't doing it. He was making a stupid careless rookie mistake, so intent on scoring his own kill that he didn't notice the two fighters lining up behind him to bounce him. Could someone with as much of a chip on his shoulder as Stachel pass up an opportunity to make a super hotshot ace look and feel stupid ?

[–] artisticengineer 18 years ago

He (Hitler) was taken POW during the war. He was a group of Austrian soldiers captured by the British late in the war. In fact, he was almost shot by a British soldier. The soldier was about to fire when he saw that Hitler has raised his arms in surrunder- the reason why Hitler was a little late in doing so was that his arms were handling his crutches. Hitler was obviously scared, tired, and wounded -which is why the British soldier hesitated in firing just long enough to let Hitler surrender.

In WWII that same British soldier stated that he (the soldier) had missed the opportunity of a lifetime by not shooting Hitler when he could of in 1918. The Brit always wanted a second shot, but sadly never got it. Actually, Hitler and WWII would not even be part of history today had the Allies:

1. Not have been so hard on post WWI Germany. Otherwise the Weimar Republic could have perhaps survivied.

2. Stopped the Germans from rearming in the early 1930s.

Actually this would have prevented the European theater of WWII from ever coming about; the Pacific theater would have been another matter. Nevertheless, it is interesting to think that WWII in Europe could have easily been avoided. Even without having to shoot a certain Austrian in WWI.

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] midnitelamp 18 years ago

stalin might have moved west so a war of some sort may have happened. one thing that is indisputable:Ursula Andress sure was hot back then.

[–] Major-Glory 18 years ago

AAAARGHHH- you kid - hitler NEVER EVER WAS A POW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i study history and am german - i had to read some biographies of that w*nker - so just believe me when i say he was not.
interesting though why you claim to know it - what is your source?

[–] artisticengineer 18 years ago

It was in the first fracas; which is called World War I (I think the British refer to it as "The War of 1914 -1918"; I do not know what the Germans refer to it as); though it was referred to- up to 1940- as "The Great War".

[–] rogerc210 18 years ago

That MAY have been the case.The fact that Germany had higher scoring aces could give a false impression to that effect. High scoring individual aces are -likely as not- a characteristic of a losing side, because pilots on the defensive side face combat more often, have more turnaround options if they're shot down & survive, & therefore can take greater risks. WWII's highest scoring aces Gunther Raol & Eric Hartman were also German. Seems Germany had a long history of effective warfare. I remember hearing in a history class that early Germans(Goths, I believe) humbled the Roman armies.
There's only 1 Yogi Bear. They tried a 2nd time, & they made a Booboo!HeyeyeyhEY!

[–] artisticengineer 18 years ago

You made some good points here. Also to be noted is that most of Messers Roal and Hartmans victories were on or over the Eastern Front against very antiquated Russian aircraft.

The early Germans did humble the Roman armies (what this has to do with the great wars of the 20th century is unknown to me but as you brought it up I will mention it) at the battle of Tutenburg Wild; which was fought when Christ was a teenager (or thereabouts). I mentiond Christ only to give a time frame reference; no religious overtones intended. However, the Geramnic armies did not follow up on their success; therefore Rome did not fall in 14 A.D. Centuries later the Germans did take over the Roman Empire, but that was really due to the decay of that empire; not to any inherent Germanic superiority.

[–] joe-armenta 17 years ago

Re: "He (Hitler) was taken POW during the war. He was a group of Austrian soldiers captured by the British late in the war..."
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In WWI, Hitler was never in the Austrian Army. He reported for duty, but was rejected as being "too weak to bear arms". He then volunteered for service in a Bavarian Regiment; the List Regiment I think it was called, and was accepted. By all accounts, he was a decent soldier (he was decorated with the Iron Cross), but was already slightly loony. He was not considered for promotion beyond corporal. Most of his comrades did not like him very much.

At war's end, he may have been herded into a temporary POW camp, with the rest of the surviving German soldiers after 11/11/18, before being discharged from wartime service, as would have been SOP.

However, other sources say that Hitler was in hospital, recovering from being severely gassed, at war's end. He supposedly wept in his hospital bed, when he heard the news of Germany's surrender.

[–] artisticengineer 17 years ago

Well, he was with some outfit when he was captured. In fact, there was a moment when a British soldier had the corporal in his sights and was about to pull the trigger when he (the Brit) saw that the group of soldiers was surrendering.

That British soldier lived through WWII (though not as a soldier) and said that
not pulling that trigger was the greatest failure of his life!

"Most of his comrades did not like him very much..." Undoubtedly true. Of course, please remember the Allied soldiers did not think too much of his companions either- kept trying to kill them!! ;)

[–] indy_go_blue44 8 years ago

Hitler was in the hospital suffering from a gas attack when the armistice was signed; I can't remember the location off hand but it was in Germany. He writes in "Mein Kamph" of his reaction of going temporarily blind (hysterical?) when he heard the news.

As for the POW story, there was a "documentary" on his life on one of the cable channels sometime in the last decade; it was full of misinformation. I think the POW/British soldier story came from this; at least that was the first time I'd heard it. Probably an urban myth or a soldier's tall tale. There's no documentation in any of the Hitler biographies I've read, including Shirer and Bullock.

[–] tarmcgator 17 years ago

Re: the post by "artistic engineer." Sorry, but I would wager that this story of Hitler nearly being shot in 1918 by a British soldier is the WWI equivalent of an urban legend. Hitler, though born in Austria, enlisted in a Bavarian regiment of the German army in 1914. He was wounded in 1916 but not taken as a prisoner. In October 1918, he was blinded by mustard gas and, when the war ended a few weeks later, Hitler was still recovering in a German military hospital in Pasewalk. Within a few weeks after the war ended Hitler was sent to a German-run POW camp in Traunwein to look after Allied POWs prior to their release. It's doubtful he would have been on crutches nor that he would have come into contact with any armed British soldiers in the last weeks of the war.

On what source do you base this story about the British soldier who missed shooting him and preventing WWII?

Edison McIntyre

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] artisticengineer 17 years ago

Looks like I will have to find the referenced material about Hitler being captured in WWI.

I do agree with your last paragraph; about National Socialism being a product of circumstances. During WWII our psychologists (doing a psychological analysis of Hitler) determined that Hiter was not a Pied Piper leading Germany but rather simply an individual who figured out where the German were going and "got in front of the crowd" in effect and therefore appeared as a "great leader".

That is why I am very dubious about stories concerning "good" Germans; that is, Germans who were not followers of Hitler and were simply doing their job. Such people did exist (White Rose movement is one example), but usually found themselves in concentration camps. The average German soldier was a deep a fanatic as any Nazi and committed the same offenses on the battlefield as were committed in the concentration camps.

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] stevekaczynski 8 years ago

Yes, this is all known historical fact. Hitler was still a citizen of the Austro-Hungarian Empire but served in a German unit, was wounded, never captured and was recovering in Pasewalk hospital from the effects of poison gas when the war ended. By his own account it was the end of his world when he heard the news of the armistice, but he took the decision to become a politician.

"Chicken soup - with a *beep* straw."

[–] rogerc210 17 years ago

Or would another despot have risen in the same place? Was it a case of a nitch waiting to be filled, or a man looking to fill a nitch?

If I'm wrong if I don't & wrong if I do, you're having your cake & eating it too.

[–] joe-armenta 17 years ago

Re: "..would another despot have risen in the same place?"

A scary thought - a communist dictator seizes control of Germany (the Reds were big there right after WWI), joins with Stalin's USSR and then starts WWII. A German-Russian-Japanese Axis would've have been a lot tougher than the German-Italian-Japanese Axis.

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] artisticengineer 17 years ago

The swastika is not native to the Nazi or National Socialist party. It has been used for centuries in the East and West; mainly as a good luck symbol. Various activities (including some sports teams) before the Nazi movement started; such use was always of a benign origin (though it does look odd to see a picture of a Canadian women's lacrosse team wearing swastikas in 1916- that picture is available on the internet). The Friekorps who were using the swastika symbol were not using it, at that time, because of a NAZI association. As you mentioned, they were using it while Hitler was still a corporal in the German Army.

[–] joe-armenta 17 years ago

The bathrooms in the Ahwanee Hotel in Yosemite, used to have beautiful porcelain tilework with Native American swastika motif.

[–] tonymaher8 17 years ago

hi . the swastika laundry was based in dublin from 1912 to 1968. i remember the red vans around the city in early 60s when i work there.google, swastika laundry 1912 dublin, its a strange world.

[–] 17 years ago

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[–] 8 years ago

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