[deleted] - Star Trek (1966) Discussion

[–] thingmakersback (1183) 4 years ago

I would say the fans who watched TOS first run had become a minority by TNG's debut. I only saw part of one episode in first run but I was a fan via the James Blish books by 1969 so I count myself an original TOS fan.
At first...
There were a lot of fans upset about TNG... If the internet had been a thing back then it would have been full of every kind of venomous anger:
a) No more Kirk Spock and McCoy adventures.
b) 75 years later! What? Why?
c) Miscellaneous bitching.
But the new series turned out to be good. The most annoying aspects of it turned out to be attributable to The Great Bird of the Galaxy himself... (So fans had to deal with the imperfections of the great but far from perfect Gene Roddenberry) And, over time, most fans got used to the Next Generation.

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[–] wearsalan (5554) 4 years ago

There were a lot of fans upset about TNG...

Can't say I recall that

b) 75 years later! What? Why?

Made perfect sense to me and my friends

c) Miscellaneous bitching.

Don't recall that either.

I think there would have been had they remade Star Trek. Over all though TNG was well received.

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[–] thingmakersback (1183) 4 years ago

Hey, you are right... My friends all agreed it was ok (Even with the opener - Farpoint - being pretty weak), but I knew a lot of fans and met more at cons. There was a minority of genuinely pissed off people. Today, they would probably be the loudest, most visible ones with social media bitching and youtube harangues. I'm not overly fond of Discovery but I've seen more vicious angry crap about it than I need to. I'm sure TNG would NOT have been beaten on that hard if there was an internet to beat it with... But it would have taken a bit of a punching... for the first season anyway.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 4 years ago

As a sequel, no. The only thing I had a problem with were the stories sucked for the first two seasons in general. I also had a problem with the characters. Their roles weren't fleshed out. It wasn't until Tasha Yar died, did they gave Worf and LaForge a defined role.

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[–] Owlwise (1490) 4 years ago

This, exactly. There might have been a small handful of decent episodes in season 2 (such as "The Measure of a Man"), but the actors & writers were still trying to find the core of the characters. Picard seems lightweight in the first season; somewhere in the second season, he suddenly becomes the strong, compassionate, determined captain that we know from then on. And once they begin to explore Worf's Klingon heritage & develop Klingon culture, he becomes far more interesting as well. Even the various alien races encountered for a single episode suddenly start becoming more interesting, or so it seems to me.

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[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

And some characters never made sense, like Troi... she was the equivalent of a management consultant, someone that just pops up to restate the obvious as if it were some groundbreaking insight. All I could figure was they wanted an actress with big tits to distract the nerds from the the other flaws in the show.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 4 years ago

Yes, being that Troi was a Betazede, which there was no definition, they made her all cold and robotic. Her role as ship's counselor wouldn't be a bridge role either, so she was just there to be there. Although episodes with her and Dr. Crusher were in general, the worst episodes of the show, her character did get better. It was noticably better after Capt. Jellicho told her to wear her standard uniform on duty.

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[–] Owlwise (1490) 4 years ago

When Troi got a rare episode where she had to make hard decisions, she was good. Same with Dr. Crusher. But neither of them got enough strong stories, or even strong moments. All too often, female guest stars got better stories than they did.

Suzie Plakson's K'Ehleyr only got two appearances, but she was memorable in both of them. I wish she'd been at least a recurring character on the series -- she had strength, sarcastic wit, and could hold her own with anyone.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 4 years ago

The episode when Troi was taking her command test stands out for me. I know it was just a B plot of the episode, but it was a good defining moment for the character.

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[–] Owlwise (1490) 4 years ago

Oh, definitely!

I also liked the episode where she woke up as a Romulan aboard the Romulan ship. It would have been interesting to see her carry some of that attitude back with her to the Enterprise!

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 4 years ago

I agree. That wasn't a bad episode either. Now what about Dr. Crusher? The only one I can think of was the one where she was linked to Picard.

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[–] Owlwise (1490) 4 years ago

Yes, that's more difficult, isn't it? Perhaps when she had to take the Enterprise into the corona of that star to evade the Borg? She handled that well.

But what she needed, it seems to me, were some episodes that centered on medical ethics. There was that story about trying a dangerous experimental procedure to help Worf regain his mobility, as well as her raising the issue of genocide in the episode with Hugh. But even in those, she wasn't as forceful as I would have liked. (I can easily picture McCoy's reactions!)

It might have been interesting for her to insist on some risky procedure and have it go irreparably & horribly wrong, fatally wrong. And then to see how she dealt with it afterward. Sometimes future medicine came across as just a little too magical & all-powerful. That hampered stories for her in the capacity as a doctor.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 4 years ago

Yes. The episode with the Ferengi doctor's research is the one that I remember the most. It was okay, because it was like a murder mystery. It was okay. What I didn't like was they used this experimental research to hide from the Borg in another episode, as you mentioned.

The episode when she fell in love with the guy with the trill. Forgettable. I guess the episode Q who, with Olivia D'abo being a Q was a Dr. Crusher heavy episode. I remember it, because i was so amused when Q turned Crusher into a barking dog.

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[–] Owlwise (1490) 4 years ago

A rather lovely Irish setter, wasn't it? :)

I liked both Dr. Crusher & Troi, I just wish they'd been given more depth & more to do. For me, there was never enough sense of personal history, as there was for many of the other characters. Even the ship's barber, Mr. Mott, had a distinct & engaging personality!

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 4 years ago

Yes, I believe it was. Being that Crusher was available, it was heavily hinted that Picard would hook up with her. I know they didn't want to do it too much, but it would've improved her character. I've always had a problem with her in First Contact. When Picard was acting irrational, why wasn't it Crusher in the ready room talking sense to her? It only makes sense and I would rather see cast members being used over guest stars.

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[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

Picard was pretty much a eunuch on the show, especially when compared to Kirk that would bang any alien he could hold onto. Even when Picard was pretty much given a shot at banging someone he never seemed to have the balls to do it.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 4 years ago

Ah. Except the episode with Famke Janssen. Although it was left to interpretation, I think he did. Also, the episode Tapestry. He banged his old cadet friend. What about that piano playing astrophysicist? Didn't he bang her in the J-tube? Maybe not as free loving as Kirk, but he had his moments.

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[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

Yeah, he might have had a few... but I think I would have appreciated the show more if he had gone full blown, "it's good to be the king" and tapped every alien he could. I grew up with the original Kirk that seemed to have been blessed with the free love gene. Hell in TNG the crew should have been running into little Kirk bastards in every other episode.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 4 years ago

That is a good premise to an episode and I would find it extremely humorous especially in the later seasons when his character was established. You'd have all of the crew doing double takes at has decisions. You can even finish the episode with Troi's mother hitting on him as usual and he'll say, "What the hell. Make it so."

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[–] Owlwise (1490) 4 years ago

Oh, definitely! While I can understand that a guest star's character may only appear once, and sothey'd want to focus on that character, all too often it was at the expense of the regulars, as you note.

And you're right about First Contact. With Picard so filled with revenge that he killed former crew members who had been assimilated, it should have been Dr. Crusher calling him on it. Yet Worf got a great moment toward the end, reacting to Picard's accusation of cowardice with "If you were any other man, I would kill you where you stand!" Dr. Crusher should have gotten a similar moment.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 4 years ago

Okay. Your favorite episodes.

For me:

Tapestry
The Inner Light
Q Who
Chain of Command
Future Imperfect

Honorable mentions: Conspiracy, The Drumhead, All Good Things

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[–] Owlwise (1490) 4 years ago

Great choices, and I agree with them!

The Inner Light is at the top of the list for me. I also have a real affection for the Riker episode Frame of Mind, because of my love for head-trip stories (DS9 was great for that sort of thing).

Additionally, The Best of Both Worlds & Darmok, for sure. (I imagine that a select list of favorite episodes would make for a revealing personality profile for each respondent.) Let me think a little more … :)

I'd almost forgotten about Conspiracy, the one real bright spot of the first season. A pity they never followed up on its open ending.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 4 years ago

Frame of Mind is also a good episode. I liked Future Imperfect a little more because of the ending. There are many other good episodes. I would actually downgrade Q Who a bit because Guinan was in that episode. In my opinion, the worst character in TNG. Lower than Wesley Crusher. Fortunately, she didn't affect the episode too much.

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[–] Owlwise (1490) 4 years ago

Guinan was probably at her best in the I, Borg episode, when her amused, I've-seen-it-all demeanor was shattered by her hatred for the Borg & her willingness, even eagerness to kill. It was interesting to see that side of her; I wouldn't have minded seeing a touch of it more often. But many of her scenes could have (and I think should have) been given to Troi.

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[–] kenburke (2280) 4 years ago

Definitely! They did not like Picard (too bald), they did not like Riker (too oversexed), they did not like Wesley (too young), every episode seemed to annoy them. Time passed, though, they mellowed, and became TNG fans mind, body, and soul.

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 4 years ago

I didn't like Wesley because he was too young. I didn't like him because he was too annoying.

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[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

I don't think most ever accepted Wesley, I recall there was a popular usenet newgroup that was titled Wesley must die or something like that. It was in the early days of the internet before the HTTP start so it would have been at a time when only the hardcore nerds were online and those were going to be filled with original Star Trek fans... Wesley was pretty much universally hated by the original fans as he was viewed as a Ewok ( something useless that was only thrown in to attract little kids).

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 4 years ago

And rightfully so. This has nothing to do with Wil Wheaton, but the character of Wesley. He was a know-it-all, for no reason. It was only until Roddenberry passed that they were able to write his character out of the show and it made it better because of it.

Can you recall a good Wesley episode?

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[–] kenburke (2280) 4 years ago

The First Duty. Personally, I have always suspected the motivation to not only include Wesley, but kids in general on the starship, was to attract a kid audience. If the looney tunes in Hollywood had seen the original series they would realize there were never kids on the show to being with (I exclude guest stars).

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[–] Sandman27 (3043) 4 years ago

You're probably right that this is the best episode featuring Wesley Crusher. Why? Because he isn't a smug and cocky know-it-all. He's at fault and the episode is the moral dilemma of doing the right thing or being a rat.

The problem that he just rats his friends out, which is equally uncool. He should've took the responsibility of saying that it was his fault. Even though they all knew the manuever was banned and extremely dangerous, they all voluntarily agreed, but it was him that persuaded the dead cadet the most and he should bear all of the punishment. With his friends also feeling their at fault, they chime in and say it is also my fault as well and so on.

This would've made Wesley's character accept responsibility for his actions while not being a rat to his friends. It shows remorse and sincerity for a loss of a friend and colleague as well as responsibility for his action and growth from an error. Instead, he's a rat that did the right thing for his own guilt.

If he completed Starfleet Academy and you knew about this, how would you feel about being under his command?

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[–] Owlwise (1490) 4 years ago

If Wesley had been more of an average kid, smart but not a genius, eager and determined but still wet behind the ears, it would have been interesting to watch him grow. He needed a mentor on the ship, as Riker was originally supposed to be. And he needed to make some really bad mistakes along the way, face some hard decisions of his own, and learn from them. That at least had potential. But as you say, he was there mainly to satisfy the younger fans … and they're the ones who disliked him the most.

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[–] kenburke (2280) 4 years ago

I often felt the ones who disliked him the most were the old guard Trekkies (the ones who had a cardiac arrest when Shatner did his "get a life" skit).

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[–] Owlwise (1490) 4 years ago

You know, I think you might have something there.

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[–] strntz (10816) 4 years ago

Not first run, but I watched every episode dozens of times in the early seventies, so I don't know if I fit your targeted demographic.

I was thrilled with Next Gen and watched every episode, and continue to do so (other than those with Troi's mother).

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[–] L1 (1316) 4 years ago

This is just a make believe story! But even in that is a heavy dose of reality.

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[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

As an eight-year-old I was a fan of the original series and I didn't care for TNG. Why not?

i. The characters:

Jean-Luc Picard! A bald Frenchman? And with a British accent?! Compared to the womanizing, two-fisted hands-on Captain Kirk the new Captain was a feeble and insipid replacement.

Where was Spock? Oh wait, there he is. He's been replaced by a cyborg Pinocchio with gold mascara and bad hair.

Or is Spock now that ass-kissing smug douche Ryker, since he's the new First Officer?

What's with all the supporting cast carefully crafted to give the show some socially enlightened cred? There's the strong female doctor... but I want my crusty Dr. McCoy back. There's the blind black guy... he checks off two boxes I guess. Scotty is gone... no wait, the guy with the British accent is now a gold shirt who... is responsible for what exactly?

What is a Counselor and why is she there? Nice rack though.

And there's a Klingon?! Okay, sorta cool... but what is with that weird Shakespeare hairdo and those furrows in his forehead?

ii. The look:

The original series had a certain simple look. The planets were clearly the same styrofoam rocks rearranged on a sound stage. The Enterprise had a pretty spartan interior for a vessel that people were going to have to spend five years of their lives on. The aliens were a collection of face paint, stuck on facial appliances and/or masks.

It was all dictated by the simple budget, but for kids -- and a lot of adults too I guess -- the simplicity of it kept distractions to a minimum and the focus on the characters and stories.

The new series looked far too glossy and CGI, sometimes to the point of distraction. How did anyone use those super busy looking LCARS consoles?

Everything was too clean looking, all crisp curves and soothing earth tones. I wanted back my Enterprise with all the bright primary colours.

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[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

iii. The stories:

Too cerebral.

Where were the giant floating heads in space? The vaguely named 'energy fields' that were always threatening in every other episode?

This Picard guy and his First Officer spend too much time TALKING. Yeesh, this Picard guy hardly ever seems to leave the ship.

Kirk... now THERE was a Captain. He was always right there in the thick of the action... he could do that clenched-hands blow thing like a boss... knew how to deliver an awesome flying side kick... was always macking on the chicks -- human or alien... And at the end of every ep he would always lecture the bad guys, or his sidekicks, with a rousing speech in that hammy one-syllable-at-a-time mode.

In short, TNG was too mature (old). It was like when you re-connect with long-lost high school friends at the reunion and discover that the adult world has caught up with you. You're now all deep into mortgages, family responsibilities, demanding jobs... all the unrestrained joy and fun of your youth has been left far behind.

I never really did get into TNG in a big way. I'd watch a stretch of episodes, give it up, return to it a year or two later. It never became 'must watch' for me in the way that TOS did in my boyhood. I watched an ep or two of DS9 for want of anything else, nothing of Voyager or Enterprise.

TNG was Star Trek for grownups. TOS was Star Trek for kids, and adults who wanna stay kids.

(Sidebar: My grade school buddy and I joined the Star Trek fan club back then. It was a huge deal when our 'signed' black and white photos of Kirk and Spock arrived in the mail along with a boilerplate greeting letter.)

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[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

If you're a fan of the original series, check out Star Trek: Continues at

https://www.startrekcontinues.com/

It's a fan made sequel series to the original series. It has an impressive budget and faithfully recreates the look and feel of the original series.

Series creator, writer and actor Vic Mignogna looks vaguely like Shatner. He does such a good job imitating Shatner's over-the-top vocal delivery and alpha-male body posturing that you'll soon forget Shatner altogether.

The rest of the case are good too though they don't look or sound the originals. Several of the episodes are sequels to the eps from the original series. They've also brought on board some high profile talent... Lou Ferrigno (does that guy EVER age?), Jamie Bamber (Battlestar Galatica), John Delaney (Q from TNG) and others.

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[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

They nailed the look and feel for the most part, but the stories are pretty weak.

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[–] Devilman (442) 3 years ago

They wanted the TOS feel for everything including stories. For example the black and white planet was silly but intentional...TOS had decent share of silly stories most of them which were just excuses to use the studios wardrobe room !

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[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

In general TNG was just a precursor to the current wimpy liberals of today, never willing to fight and always trying to make peace. While the original would sometimes dip its toes in the wimpy side of the pool and try to do things diplomatically they would still have enough alien battles that you could enjoy it. That was the biggest problem with TNG, just a bunch of spineless coward trying to talk their way out of a battle every chance they had. They needed more fighting and red shirts getting wasted.

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[–] [deleted] 4 years ago

Yes, a bald captain who is all talk and no action, and surrenders at the first sign of trouble.

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[–] AnubisRaydeen (7897) 4 years ago

I don't exactly count as per OP's parameters (Born in 69 but started watching in 73) but I'll add my perspective.
I did not like it. I liked the look but thought the acting and writing were very bad. I quit mid way through S1. Tuned back in near the end of S2 and remained hooked from then on. I even went back to watch it all with a less critical eye.

Even though I came around, I still did not like Guinan, Troi, Crusher, nor Riker.

Thought DS9 was a D grade show with occasional A+ episodes and Voyager a C- grade show with occasional B grade episodes. Didn't like the feel of Enterprise. Hate STD and nu-Trek. Love Orville. Like and respect "Continues."

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