MovieChat Forums > Procès de Jeanne d'Arc (1963) Discussion > This one vs. Dreyer's Joan of Arc?

This one vs. Dreyer's Joan of Arc?


I know it is unfair to compare both of the masterpieces. But just out of curiosity, which one do you prefer?

And i would be very grateful if anyone had any piece of information as to how both of them relate. I've read somewhere that Bresson made his movie as a kind of response to Dreyer (which is confusing seeing as Dreyer's work was gone until the 90'ties, i believe). The symbolics and many details from both of the movies might form an interesting dialogue - for example, the use of the crucifix, or the role of a 'white monk (priest?)', and many more.

Would be nice to hear your opinion!

---

I am the character you are not supposed to like. - Alan Rickman

reply

[deleted]

Regarding the status of the Dreyer film before the 1990s - it didn't disappear completely, and Godard uses several large excerpts from it in VIVRE SA VIE (also 1962). I think what was restored in the 1980s was Dreyer's "original cut", which was rediscovered around that time; the film had formerly circulated in a truncated version. Sorry for the trivia - but, for the record, the Criterion DVD of PASSION gives some of the history of the different PASSIONS.

reply

[deleted]

Both Dreyer and Bresson are master filmakers with their own aesthetic taste. Falconetti's performance in Dreyer's film is considered one of the all time greats, yet I am more drawn to the austere Joan in Bresson's film, and think his climax is more powerful. It's like you can almost feel the fire.

reply

I have a visceral dislike of the Dreyer film. All those constant close ups seem like a gimmick to me. I also don't like Falconetti's overly dramatic emotions all the time. Joan of Arc was a FIGHTER. She fought with men in battle. The trial transcripts show a woman who fought back and told the men who judged her that they were wrong. She wouldn't have sat there like a deer in headlights, with tears streaming down her face. I much prefer Bresson's film. It's more realistic and I like its minimalistic style.

reply

Just saw this film for the first time and am disgusted with it, and am shocked to find such radical disagreement here. This is the Passion of Joan d'Arc WITHOUT the passion, not only on Joan's part but EVERYONE. Apparently, if Bresson is to be believed, every person involved in the trial, including Joan herself, needed Prozac.

This film is excreble to the same degree as George Stevens' Greatest Story Ever Told, which likewise seemed to think its characters less than human in the same way; as with Bresson, Stevens had otherwise proven himself capable of some wonderful films (The More the Merrier, Gunga Din, Swing Time, Shane, The Diary of Anne Frank, Vivacious Lady, Penny Serenade, Woman of the Year, etc.)

Dreyer's masterpiece is not only one of the great silent films, but one of the greatest films ever made. In it we are constantly reminded of the carnival-like atmosphere that surround such heralded trials as an integral part of same, as is done to this day, while Bresson's version is content to dub in a few minimalist mild outbursts from the crowd, which sound more artificial than anything outside a '50s B sci-fi picture.

Finally, the death scene is ridiculous. Again NO ONE has any expression AT ALL, neither of face nor voice, whether for or against Joan, not even Joan herself. Ludicrous in the extreme. The Dreyer death scene may be derided for melodrama, but surely any reasonable person can see that such extreme circumstances call for extreme reactions on the part of those involved. Would YOU go to the flames with no expression? If YOU supported the person being executed, would YOU stand by watching as if someone were planting potatoes?

The only thing Bresson has going for him here is fidelity to the trial transcripts, but Dreyer did the same and with much greater effect. I haven't seen his film for some time now, yet many of its scenes haunt me. By comparison this Bresson film will fade quickly, though its bad aftertaste, I fear, will stay with me for quite awhile.

reply

I couldn't agree more, Falconetti's performance was near-divinity

reply

Yes, Falconetti's performance was sublime. IMHO Dreyer's film is the greatest silent film of all time.

Schrodinger's cat walks into a bar, or doesn't.

reply

Just jumping into this thread having *not* seen the Bresson version, but interested in whether any have seen the Voices of Light version of Dreyer's film.
The only reason I watched it was because TCM is hosting a event this coming April, which will include a showing of The Passion of Joan of Arc & I will be taking part in the live choral/orchestral performance of the VOL music that was written expressly to sync with the film.
I've been rehearsing that score for a couple of months in order to be completely off-book by April so I'm very familiar with it; last night I watched the Criterion DVD of both the film & music (lots of extras on the DVD)
This was not my first time seeing the silent version, but I have to say that after this version was over my partner (who had studied it in film school before the score even existed)and I were just stunned.
That's all I'll say. Just wondering if any have also gotten bit by the bug. :-)

reply

I agree with abchulett. It's not a film that reflects reality, but merely recites text. The lack of emotion is because Bresson was not up to the challenge of interpretation. Why have actors at all? Why not just have someone read the script in a monotone?

reply

The film will "fade quickly" but its effects will stay with you "for quite a while"? Perhaps you should explore that contradiction and see how transgressive Bresson's film is. You are "disgusted" by a matter-of-fact interpretation that deals in morality and excludes sensationalism? An odd and deeply personal reaction, no doubt. You post reads as though there is some competition between the films and that your favourite should win. This is a reductionist way to view any art. Open your mind to alternatives and maybe discover what you missed.

I just watched "The Trial of Joan of Arc" for the first time and was transfixed by the emotional depth and subtlety. But I also liked Luc Besson's comic book version. It's possible to enjoy many tellings of the same story.

Of course I would have emotions going to the stake, but I am not Joan of Arc. Isn't that the whole point?

Nonetheless, Joan clearly has emotion in the final scene. She rushes to meet her maker in peace and even joy. In considering the characters "less than human" you also must have missed the scenes in which Jean is in tears, capitulates, despairs, threatens, etc. A most human range of emotions. This is far from a simplistic portrayal, but a rich and rewarding one. In fact, a work of some genius.

reply

I respect people who prefer this version to Dreyer's, because this one by Bresson is a quality movie. The peeping through the walls, the prison theme, the adherance to the text, the tedium of the trial, it's all right up Bresson's alley, and he clearly sought to achieve a supreme level of truth and beauty. With that said, Dreyer's movie is otherworldly. He doesn't only seek to achieve, he achieves. I think part of the magic of Dreyer's earlier version lies in its silence. It connects more directly with our dreams, and the cinematography is breathtaking.


My attempt to list the best movies of all-time: http://www.themoviecanon.blogspot.com

reply

Must admit I've never seen the Dreyer version...but this Bresson masterpiece blew me away on TCM the other afternoon.

Black and white. No incidental music. The repetitiveness of locking/unlocking cells, clerics in a huff rising from chairs and storming out, etc...

...just a stark, raw-boned movie that never let up. Loved it!

"What's wrong with a little good, clean violence?"

reply

Dreyer's, of course.

Clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose.

reply

I'm a little over halfway through this movie for the first time. I've seen several Bresson films, and to those who are frustrated that Bresson's Joan shows fewer emotions than Dreyer's, they are undoubtedly correct, yet isn't that the point? Bresson tries to minimize emotion in his mis en scene so that we might focus on the morality, the dialogue as text, and the reality of words and morals. It's an idealistic approach that I both admire and find difficulty in watching. It's a challenge, but a rewarding one.

Dreyer is a different kind of master. His Joan comes across as incredibly passionate and arguably manic. It speaks of a reality and morality that is just as true as Bresson's. Bresson's says dispassionately "my truth will live on beyond the flesh and history" and Dreyer's says "my truth is here and now in front of you, pay attention!" Both are indispensable.

We must strive to do what is right each and every moment and we must look beyond the moment to consider what will be right in 500 years.

reply

Although the OP recently died, I'll post anyway. I prefer this one and would easily recommend it over Th's (all his friends called him Th) to those who are unaware of the story of Joan. Flo was very effective in the role, despite her beauty. I absolutely loved two unexpected moments at the end - the attempted tripping of Joan as she walked to her fate and the brief appearance of a dog in an open area amongst the crowd. Only one person was shown attempting to trip Joan, which made even more of an impression on me, and that person was two deep into the crowd instead of on the edge, so his/her foot had to extend or "reach around" in front of the person on the edge/front row of the crowd, also making the attempt more memorable. The dog? Maybe it was Bresson's, and he wanted to preserve it on film. Maybe it was a symbol of the ultimate innocence amongst an evil crowd. Two short moments of great film making.

If you put me on ignore, then how can I notify you when I win the lottery?

reply

I just saw this movie, my fourth Bresson, last night for the first time. I've seen Dryer's at least three times; it may be over four (I also watched it again last night/earlier today, when TCM showed it right after the Bresson film).

First off, I just don't agree that Bresson's Joan lacked emotion at all. She didn't have to shout and throw her hands up in the air to show me she was just full of defiance, even arrogance. Her emotion (her whole characterization) was strikingly different than Dreyer's Joan, Dreyer's Joan showed her emotion in an arguably more blatant way, but I saw emotion spewing out of Bresson's left and right.

In a way, actually, Bresson's Joan was MORE emotional than Dreyer's. Bresson's showed real, human, "down-to-earth" emotions. As one other poster here pointed out, Dreyer's Joan maybe manic. What she displays strikes me as something other than, or beyond, human emotion. Something admittedly mysterious, but, for me, that was the point. Dreyer's film was all (or, well, largely) about an unclassifiable, unknowable space of being appearing right before our eyes: Does Joan truly believe she has been touched by God? HAS she truly been touched by God? Is Joan insane?

For me, Bresson and Falconetti purposely and pointedly refuse to tell us the answers to these questions. But something well beyond everyday human experience, for the maid, the commoner, or even the soldier at war, is clearly on display in Dreyer's Joan.

There's basically none of this in Bresson's Joan. The two character's are almost entirely different. Not just how the directors present them, but who and what they acutally are. Bresson's Joan struck me as largely, if not entirely, self-aware and calculating -- and, of course, there is absolutely none of THAT in Dreyer's Joan. Bresson's Joan is at war, while Dreyer's Joan is in some place I could never explain - but it's certainly not on the battlefield.

By the way, for me, Bresson's film (after one viewing, at least...) is a great film, but Dreyer's blows it out of the water. That's saying a lot!

Matthew

reply

Simply put: Dreyer's film is emotional to a point I sometimes expected Charlie the Tramp (Chaplin) to jump into the scene and provide some comic relief.
Dreyer re-used his technique in Ordet to an even greater effect with the idiot/prophet Johannes.

Bresson OTOH achieves in this last part of his prison trilogy his creation of space and movement through discrete sequences that work like a Riemann surface.
In Bresson's cinema, space is time, and it's discontinued. For example you never see a complete room, not even a wall. You never see a full body, only the parts that you need to see to understand who is who or who does what.
The dialogues follow a similar logic of stylization: you hear what you need in order to understand. For example in the first minutes of the film, when Jeanne is brought back to her cell after the first hearing, she's untied and cries.
What you see: her feet and the guard's hand, then her face when she starts crying. Stop. Next scene: the back and head of English soldiers walking out of the prison, etc.
As a viewer, you know exactly what you need to hear and see in order to understand. The "weaker" moment of the soldiers walking out allow you to connect the dots in your mind so that the story happens as much in you as on the screen.

reply

Bresson has essentially (whether intentionally or not) made the exact opposite film from Dreyer using the same source material. Both films are masterpieces however.
Does anyone have a source of Bresson criticizing Dreyer's film?

reply