So you rape a girl ...


... then she kills herself and then you go on a suicide mission to atone for the crime? Someone needed to tell Preminger, "Hey Otto what do you say we go another way"

That is the one thing that drags this movie off my watch whenever it comes on list.

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Personally, I thought it was one of the best parts of the movie. And by the way, nobody (including Duke Wayne) told Otto "Mr. Freeze" Preminger what to do while he was filming his pictures. He didn't take orders...he gave them.

CmdrCody

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I thought it was very well done and if it based on actual event more so the better. I thought he was trying to make right (as impossible as it is) by going on what he knew was a suicide mission. Almost like I caused her to kill herself I will give up my life for what I've done.

It was fitting that Rock refused to put him up for the Medal of Honor.

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No one is letting Cpt. Eddigton off the hook for raping the nurse, Annalee. Even though he was tortured about his whore wife that died after spending the night with another man, his horrible drinking problem, his abysmal career due to the rage related to these issues, this was clearly a criminal act, for which he needed to be punished.

He acted like a thug with this girl. She discovers she is pregnant, confronts him, he decides he can't handle it, and he feels cannot dissapoint the ONE person who believed in him no matter what - Rockwell Torrey, so he climbs into a plane, and tries to set something right, tries to find redemption. He dies a hero's death, but we all know what he already knows. He isn't a hero. He wasn't trying to BE a hero. He was trying to save what was left of his shattered shell of a life.

Preminger knew what he was doing. The movie was based on actual events.

Unfortunately, things like this happen. No one condones rape in any form. But as I stated before, these things happen, and to "soft-pedal" the issue would be to say that it never happened, and that would be disrespectful to the victim. Her part in this story had to be told. It was really very tastefully done for the time (1965)

I respect your decision as a consumer, but I think your logic is flawed.

Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway. John Wayne

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I know the final invasion and battle sequences are loosely based on the Battle of Leyte Gulf, and particularly the Battle of the Samar Passage. But are you all trying to say there was actually some yahoo pilot who discovered the Japanese fleet on a suicide mission atoning for a rape? I figured that was just dramatic license with a character's subplot. But I'm always wildly surprised with what life comes up with sometimes. Any basis for that?

"I'm not from here, I just live here. . ."

-James Mc Murtry

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109,

It's not based on Leyte but Guadalcanal. No single pilot discovered it but that's dramatic license. Remember Hercules and heroics based on atonement for the murder of his wife and children. Scrape the surface and we're all Freudian (if that's your reference) nut bags. Drama like good set lighting can focus a scene but it can never match the profundity and ambiguity of reality.

I'm not saying we won't get our hair mussed!

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Sorry to correct you, but the movie was based on a novel by Richard Bassett. Try to find it someplace, it's a great book, far superior to the movie.

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No problem, and thanks for the head's up - I was under a different impression based on an an interview I witnessed with a person I knew in the business several years ago. I also have no doubt the book was better than the movie. They usually are!

Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway. John Wayne

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dies a hero's death… ???

Looked to me more like he took the coward’s way out of facing responsibility for being about the lowest kind of criminal a person can be.

Sure, sending back helpful information along with some snappy palaver — “Gonna be busy up here for a minute.” — and then taking a step at confronting combat and immediately dieing — SEEMS HEROIC; but it’s a mistake to overlook that he chose to do this only AFTER he KNEW that his criminality was going to be exposed. Not to mention to the very person he supposedly feels he cannot disappoint — Rockwell Torrey.

If this is supposed to be the true moral nature of the character then that thought should’ve been there long before he committed rape.

So far as his so-called heroics is concerned, it’s far too little, far too late. He disappointed his friend long before he climbed into that plane.

i.e. — If you’re supposed to recognize his action as heroism, for any sane person, it doesn’t wash.



“Your thinking is untidy, like most so-called thinking today.” (Murder, My Sweet)

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Read the post again. He isn't a hero, and I stated that. It's true that I should've added quotes around the phrase "died a hero's death," because I obviously followed it up with a clear explaination.

He WAS a coward, and he needed to pay for what he did, but he also did what needed to be done for the good of the cause (remember - no long range recon planes coming in from anywhere anytime soon, and the enemy task force bearing down fast). NOT for redemption, or forgivness, but he knew it wouldn't get down otherwise.

Your point about it not washing as heroism is redundant. It's been covered before.

I don't act...I react. John Wayne

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LOL…

Well, it’s pretty clear the idea of having HIM do it had the intended effect on YOU!

So, he did something that — according to you — wouldn’t have gotten done?

The entire military was filled with cowards; men who wouldn’t dare give or follow an order to do what he did? So he … he alone … among an entire army of servicemen, has to act “bravely” — Not because he is still a coward running from facing the music he truly deserves, but because it wouldn’t get done otherwise?

Very handy for him and you, eh?



“Your thinking is untidy, like most so-called thinking today.” (Murder, My Sweet)

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so he climbs into a plane, and tries to set something right, tries to find redemption. He dies a hero's death, but we all know what he already knows. He isn't a hero. He wasn't trying to BE a hero. He was trying to save what was left of his shattered shell of a life.
Oddly enough, he goes the Japanese way. He sacrificed his own life in order to save face. If we admire him for it, then we also have to give respect to Kamikaze pilots, or at least those Japanese who committed hari-kiri when faced with either defeat or disgrace.

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It's a great part of the film because Eddington discovered the Japanese fleet while on his suicide mission. The irony is that if he had not raped Annalee, he would not had flown the mission, and the Japanese would have (probably) wiped them all out. Those are the crazy kind of events that happen in wartime.

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Boy, you gotta understand the Eddington character. James Bassett did. Eddington is a tortured soul who, through his uncontrollable rage, causes the death of a young woman who is tied indirectly to the man he idolizes and considers his savior. He commits suicide-by-Japanese Zero to pay Rock back for his sins.

Melodramatic, but psychologically understandable.

"You eat guts."--Nick Devlin

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[deleted]

I think Eddington was running away again, this time not to a bottle, but from responsibility and a court martial and, above all, his friend, the Rock.

I don't think he was deliberately seeking death, perhaps he was hoping to get to an island afterwards.


To die is to live, to live is to die

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Eddington didn't consider his suicide mission untill he discovered that she was engaged to Torrey's son. If he hadn't found that out he probably wouldn't have taken the plane on his "mission".

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"If he hadn't found that out he probably wouldn't have taken the plane on his "mission"."

You had a good hint Paul was going to fly the mission regardless, the situation with the nurse simply resolved the final doubts. The invasion force was threatened by the lack of information on enemy fleet movements and Eddington was the one to suggest a one way flight to recon the enemy waters to determine if the enemy was on the move or not.

From the original drunk and feeling sorry for himself Eddington he had become by then a "whatever it takes" type, as illustrated by his physical assault on a US Congressman. Flying the mission was precisely the sort of thing he would do to serve Rock.

The few moments where Burgess Meredith suggests the Medal of Honor for Paul is one of my favorite scenes.

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for mousalope; but also remember that Neal Owynn was no longer a congressman. he resigned his seat to join the navy and was a commander. eddington was a captain and outranked him. and eddington also felt an obligation to Rock for "getting me out of purgitory".

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"but also remember that Neal Owynn was no longer a congressman. "

True but that doesn't tell the whole story. Owynn was no longer a congressman in the same sense LBJ (on whom Oywnn was based I believe) was no longer a congressman when he resigned his seat and joined the navy. It was always understood he would return to congress. Navy service was a political stunt that would guarantee his future advancement in office.

Besides being the admiral's publicity man/political advisor Owynn would be expected to remain a force in US politics. For an ordinary line officer to assault such an powerful person could likely in its own sense by career-suicide. The Owynn's of the world have long memories. Eddington didn't care because it was necessary to protect the mission and serve Rock. It's not such a long leap to see Eddington would likewise seize upon the suicide mission for the same reasons even without the nurse's suicide.

Eddington's whole story is one of self-destruction, but oddly focused to the service of Admiral Torrey. Kirk Douglas should get more credit for the performance.


ps- Sometime look up the story of LBJ's Silver Star for valor in combat. He wore the award's lapel pin the rest of his life.


(edit) I refer to the mission as a suicide mission but that's not totally correct. The bomber's fuel load didn't permit it to return to base but as risky as that was it that didn't automatically doom the pilot. As Eddington discussed when he came up with the idea the pilot would ditch and a submarine or other boat would be sent for rescue. Eddington would have a fair chance to evade the Zeros after reporting the enemy task force. This is the mission profile Eddington would have flown had Dorn not killed herself. That he was responsible for her death is what transformed it from heroic calculated risk to suicide mission by willingly allowing the Zeros their kill.

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for mousalope; "LBJ (on whom Owynn was based I believe)". I doubt very seriously that in 1965 (or 1964 when the movie was filmed) that a character that was so spineless and disliked as Owynn would be based on the current President of the United States. If it was, LBJ would probably have pulled all DoD support from the movie. And several senators, congressmen and other politicians resigned to join the military. LBJ did not join the Navy as a political stunt but because he felt it was his duty as an American after Pearl Harbor. LBJ was not on staff but served in actual combat, (the only way to earn a Silver Star). And Owynn couldn't just return from war and resume his seat in congress. He would have to go thru the election process again in 1946 or 1948 and win the election. When Eddington suggested the mission he didn't consider himself for the mission and at the time the rape hadn't been disclosed yet and Dorn hadn't yet committed suicide. And dialog between Torrey and Powell after he was shot down indicated that he was trying to avoid responsibility for what he'd done. And most career officers during WW II didn't care about politics. Also remember that the only witness to the slap was LT (jg) Torrey, and he had gotten to loose respect for Owynn and stated that "as far as I'm concerned a coconut fell and hit you in the mouth". And, by the way, I know about LBJ's Silver Star. I'm a lifelong Democrat and an admirer of the former President and wrote a term paper on him for my college history class. (My profile says i'm a historian because one of my degrees is in history). But you are right about one thing. Kirk Douglas should get more credit for the performance. He did a great job.

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This reviewer's comments about LBJ are wrong. Read Robert Caro's definitive biography series of same. Johnson joined the Navy after Pearl Harbor because he made a campaign promise to do so in his 1940 reelection race. He got near combat exactly once, when he made the mistake of taking a "tour" of the front lines in New Guinea as a sort a jaunt in connection with staff-type work. He flew on a large Army bomber with probably 9 other guys and according to one of them spent the whole combat phase of the mission with his head between his knees. This large bomber came back with about one bullet hole in it. However, at the time it landed Douglas MacArthur happened to be at the airfield passing out Silver Star medals like Halloween candy, something to which the general was prone at that early stage of the war (and which has been noted and criticized in many sources). Johnson accepted his medal and at his first opportunity skedaddled back to the States for the duration. He later misrepresented it and his wartime service membership generally for political purposes (John Kerry was true hero compared to this guy). Incidentally, I am from Texas, so this historical correction is in the spirit of Nixon going to China.

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I don't agree about Johnson. In the first or second volume of Robert Caro's biography of Johnson he relates that Johnson had made a campaign promise in 1940 to join the service if war came, and he got caught in it. As it was, like so many others like him he managed to spend the war fighting "The Battle of Washington" despite his one naive and terrifying jaunt to the South Pacific. Read Caro for the details. It is all there, and well-documented.

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for mousalope; here is the citation for LBJ's Silver Star;

LIEUTENANT COMMANDER LYNDON BAINES JOHNSON,
UNITED STATES NAVAL RESERVE

"For gallantry in action in the vicinity of Port Moresby and Salamaua, New Guinea on June 9, 1942. While on a mission of obtaining information in the Southwest Pacific area, Lieutenant Commander Johnson, in order to obtain personal knowledge of combat conditions, volunteered as an observer on a hazardous aerial combat mission over hostile positions in New Guinea. As our planes neared the target area they were intercepted by eight hostile fighters. When, at this time, the plane in which Lieutenant Commander Johnson was an observer, developed mechanical trouble and was forced to turn back alone, presenting a favorable target to the enemy fighters, he evidenced marked coolness in spite of the hazards involved. His gallant action enabled him to obtain and return with valuable information."

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Whoopie. All medals come with a citation. The problem with this one is, as one aquainted with the underlying facts would expect, it never describes the alleged "gallant action" supposedly taken by Johnson, whose propensity to physical cowardice is well-documented by his biographer in a number of episodes far short of war. Rather, this citation is as bland, general, and vague as, say, any press release issued by a politician who doesn't want to be quoted as saying something because he doesn't have anything to say. In other words, it is like the form letter you get from your Congressman in response to one of your own in which he says he is doing everything reasonably possible to alleviate the suffereing of the unemployed during the current economic difficulties when in fact he votes consistently against extending unemployment benefits. It sounds nice but is really just plain meaningless.

A more typical citation would say something like, "after LCDR Johnson's plane took more than 100 machine gun bullet hits and two of its designated gunners were taken out of action by severe wounds, and despite being hampered by a shrapnel wound himself, on his own initiative Johnson voluntarily manned the right waist .50 caliber machine gun and returned fire until he himself was unable to continue due to loss of blood, showing fortitude in the face of fire consistent with the highest traditions of the armed forces of the United States . . . " You don't see anything like this here, because nothing like that happened. See the aforementioned biography series. The author researched it thoroughly and interviewed at least one other person on the mission. He didn't make it up.

The fact is, you don't get a silver star medal just for being in combat, which, lacking the pertinent details, is basically the only thing the citation really says about Johnson's conduct. That is not the standard. If it were then everyone who ever served in combat would be wearing one. However, one clear and well-documented exception to this principle was if you happened to be in the vicinity of Douglas MacArthur during this period when he was still trying to assuage his personal pain over having lost the Philippines to the Japanese and for leaving tens of thousands of U.S. and Filipino troops behind to be captured while he, his wife, his child, and his wife's Filipino maid, along with various military staff people, were evacuated. (Also see the MacArthur biography AMERICAN CAESAR, by William Manchester, where this practice was also described.)

By the way, it was interesting how Johnson seems to have entered the service as a lieutenant commander (pay grade O-4) despite having no previous military experience or training of any kind. Your normal officer would have been an ensign at that point in his career (Pay Grade O-1). There is little doubt in my mind that he or someone similarly situated inspired the Neil Owen character in the film.

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You had some American CEOs become generals during World War II and they had no military experience and the only reason why they became generals was supposely because they knew how to run large organizations

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"Amateurs study tactics; professionals study logistics."

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***Eddington didn't consider his suicide mission untill he discovered that she was engaged to Torrey's son. If he hadn't found that out he probably wouldn't have taken the plane on his "mission".***

I probably missed some minor bit of information given in the film, but how does a Navy man know how to fly a multi-engine, (what was it a B-25?) aircraft? I mean it's not like jumping into a duece and a half for a joy ride.

Found that a little too far beyond reality.



When a man assumes a public trust, he should consider himself as public property - Thomas Jefferson

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for mgbphd, "I probably missed some minor bit of information given in the film, but how does a Navy man know how to fly a multi-engine, (what was it a B-25?) aircraft?" You Did!
1. at the beginning of the movie in Eddington's first scene Torrey mentions that Eddington has been transfered out of Naval Aviation.
2. when Eddington orders the plane he refers to it as a PBJ. that is the US Navy designation of the B25. PB is for Patrol Bomber. J is for 2 engined land aircraft. (PBY is Patrol Bomber Seaplane or Amphibious)
3. the Navy used all types of bombers for bombing and patrol duties during the war except the B29.
4. look up the info on President John F. Kennedy's older brother Joseph Jr. and how he died during the war. Also a Naval Aviator.

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2. when Eddington orders the plane he refers to it as a PBJ. that is the US Navy designation of the B25. PB is for Patrol Bomber. J is for 2 engined land aircraft. (PBY is Patrol Bomber Seaplane or Amphibious)


No, no, no! In USN World War II nomenclature, PB stands for Patrol Bomber, J stands for "Manufactured by North American Aviation" and Y stands for "Manufactured by Consolidated Aircraft". The Catalina patrol bomber was designated the PBY, and the B-24 Liberator, also manufactured by Consolidated (and which Joe Kennedy Jr. flew), was designated by the Navy as the PB4Y.

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to MadTom; well, at least i got the PB part right. i wasn't sure about the rest.

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HueyDoc,

You're absolutely correct on PB. Patrol Bomber. The last letter J, however, refers to the manufacturer, in this case, North American.

A - Brewster
F - Grumman
Y - Consolidated
D - Douglas
U - Chance Vought
M - Martin/General Motors Easter Aircraft
R - Ryan

Etc.



Conservatives shape policy to deal with reality. Libprogs attempt to reshape reality to match their policies.

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"I probably missed some minor bit of information given in the film, but how does a Navy man know how to fly a multi-engine, (what was it a B-25?) aircraft? I mean it's not like jumping into a duece and a half for a joy ride."

That was what made the scene so ironic. He told the seaman "Warm me up a PBJ". All he really wanted was a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, on toast. The course of the war changed by such a simple misunderstanding.

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Yes, these kinds of historical accidents are amazing. Like Patton's soldier-slapping incident in Sicily, or Naploean's kidney problem at Waterloo. Oh, well.

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Douglas was torutred by his wifes' infidelity and death. he slugged the Air Force offcier because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He raped the nurse because she told him she was engaged to another man, pressing exactly the wrong button. It was too much. Wayne wasn't much of a father. DeWilde admired people who turned out to be schemers and cowards before finding out what and who matter...etc...etc. It's all part of the story.

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I respect your thoughts here, but Ensign Dorn does not tell Eddington that she's engaged to Jere Tory, she simply says "I'm not going to let you kiss me. There's this boy, and...." then the rape scene takes place with that hard look on Eddington's face.

Eddington decides to make the flight when he gets both devastating pieces of news - that Ensign Dorn is dead and that she was engaged to Ensign Tory.

It is indeed, all part of the larger story. And I think - as one other commenter observed - very tastefully done for the time.

Still one of my favorite movies. The DVD is one of the few I keep where I can find it quickly.

Cheers.

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It is pretty evident that Preminger was looking for some shock value in this film -- trying to insert "edgy" "adult" themes and plot developments into the film which would have been, at most, subtly underplayed had the movie been made 10 or 20 years earlier. Thus, we wind up with this contrived piece of melodrama, along with all the other baloney about John Wayne's relationship with his pretty-boy son and Patricia Neal and losing his leg and the like. Frankly, as might be expected from anyone with a functional Y-chromosome, I think the movie would be better off without the personal soap-opera elements, and when I get around to dubbing this over to DVD along with all the rest of the VHS tapes I have made off TV over the years I might consider doing a version that edits a lot of this out (as I already have firm plans to do with the film MIDWAY, which suffers similiarly).

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Ooooh, MIDWAY. Good choice for hacking up a bit. Saw this one in theatrical release back in the seventies where they touted the "Sensurround" sound system. This was basically just a heavy bass section when bombs were going off. I thought they did a better job portraying the battle of Midway in "War and Remembrance," melodramatic as that was. But MIDWAY did include some of those patched in and recognizable sequences from TORA! TORA! TORA! and a corny but still presentable Japanese film from the early sixties called I BOMBED PEARL HARBOR. Other than that, I don't think it went much farther than, say, PEARL HARBOR in trying to lay on a little human drama over the actual historical events. As if there isn't enough human drama already. Another disaster romance wrapped around a war story. . . I have spoken.

Although I will say one more thing: Since Hollywood has already kind of run the Pearl Harbor scene into the ground, it's a shame we'll never see an adaptation of the real classic on the event: DAY OF INFAMY, by Walter Lord, who oddly enough, also wrote a classic on the sinking of the Titanic called A NIGHT TO REMEMBER. Hmmm. You don't think that writer has a penchant for things gone horribly, horribly wrong now, do you?

"I'm not from here, I just live here. . ."

-James Mc Murtry

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I skipped PEARL HARBOR just on account of the "personal drama" and the fact that it couldn't possibly have handled the attack sequence itself any better than TORA did (as confirmed by the trailer, incidentally). However, one advantage it did have over TORA is that some of it was shot aboard the battleship TEXAS, an authentic period vessel still in existance on permanent museum duty near Houston. Having some familiarity with that ship (I was once part of its volunnteer docent group) it would be interesting to see how it looked in the film.

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Actually, it looked to me that TORA largely did that, incorporating many of the anecdotes found in INFAMY. NIGHT TO REMEMBER is a terific movie for the same reason - it related the anecdotes Lord collected, something the more recent Titanic movie did not. (Incidentally, my favorite is the yachtsman who shinnied down the boat falls into one of the lifeboats to serve as crew. Unfortunately, no one making the film thought it was worth including the fact that in doing so, he lost his wallet out of his pocket. I say unfortunate because the submersible operators exploring the wreck FOUND this wallet on the order of 90 years later - an event that all recreational boaters on this site will likely find utterly astonishing, for as every boater knows, once you lose your wallet, car keys, wrist watch, etc., over the side, it is gone forever, right?)

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(and i am not saying the girl deserved it) but she was stupid. she wasn't honest at first with him.

Never mind completely abandoning her loved ones and duty by committing suicide by taking sleeping pills instead of staying alive and court-martialing the SOB.

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[deleted]

I don't remember it showing his pickle. Maybe I have an edited version.

http://www.bumscorner.com
http://www.myspace.com/porfle

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Remember, this is a period film. You sound like child of the 1980's, when films made out pregnant 15-year-olds who chose not to have abortions or even put up their babies for adoption, but instead decided to "keep my baby" a la Madonna as great righteous heroines on a level with the Mother Theresa or Amelia Earhart. That mentality remains alive and well today among many people, when self-professed conservative people vociferously defended Sarah Palin's teenaged daughter in exactly the same situation.

The 1950's mentality still alive and well in 1965 when this was released was very much the opposite, however. In 1965 there would have been no chance whatsoever that any woman could have been nominated for vice president of either major party, because women simply weren't necessarily accorded equal footing with men as to anything as a general rule. Moreover, even if she could have been elected mayor of somewhere like Wasilla at that time (not that much of a reach, despite the rarity of such things), her daughter's out-of-wedlock pregnancy would have killed her political career dead right there for many years to come in most white middle class communities in the United States. Indeed, in many places they could have easily been forced to move out of town. For in that day and age the social stigma attached to such events was exceeded by few things (child-molesting is one that comes to mind, with interracial marriage possibly being another) and the ostracizing they might have been expected to face would have been too painful to bear. (I know one woman from from that era from a small New England town who, finding herself in the same way, had to leave the state when she started to show, in order to protect her family's and her own reputations. Eventually she gave birth under an assumed name at a type of hospital expressly set up for the principal purpose of tending to such unfortunates, after hiding out at a remote location until she completed her term. Then she gave up the baby for adoption.)

Moreover, at that time women who were raped were often blamed for bringing it upon themselves (as one well-known political commentator still seems to think in this century, at least sometimes - search for the You-tube clips on that one), and beyond that were often expected to be deferential if not utterly submissive to men in most things anyway, so that making a rape allegation was considered a permanently reputation-damaging event, irrespective of the unintended out-of-wedlock pregnancy.

And if all that were not enough, virginity at marriage was an ideal generally prized to an extent that any medieval religious savant could praise. Even those of us who hit adolescence during the 1970's were raised with a stout dose of this, and it infiltrated the conversation of teenaged boys frequently when sex was discussed during those years.

Naturally, Hollywood during this period often melodramatically exaggerated this type of situation for emotional effect to the point where in accordance with that idiom the only decent thing a girl in Miss Dorn's plight could do was commit suicide. Her conduct makes absolutely no sense whatsoever by modern standards, as it was not written for a modern audience. When you view this movie, and whether you are considering this sequence or many others, remember that what you are looking at is a nice slice of early 1960's mainstream American values (i.e., 1950's values with a dollop of early 1960's mainstream raciness tossed in for spice - the vast upheaval of the 1960's cultural revolution, including the sexual revolution, still a few years away) and that is about all it's worth. Moreover, it was directed by Preminger, who loved this over-the-top stuff in preference to any kind of subtlety or even realism. Even in its time, my guess is that less naive audience members (especially female ones) were rolling their eyes at this particular dramatic foray (the near-striptease by Eddington's wife at the beginning of the movie being absolutely inconceivable at a Navy Officer's Club in 1941 as well). This subject matter, ironically enough, would likely have been dealt with much more realistically in any well-made 1940's or especially a 1930's pre-production-code film.

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The 2012 Invisible War film is a true story about men and mostly women being sexually assault and rape as far back as the 1950s maybe even longer in our American military. Yeah, so much of military rape was covered up by our clean cut, well groom, good all American boys and men, the flower of our American civilization whose job was to enlightened and export our so called American and Christian values to the rest of the world.

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Your version of history here seems weirdly wrong - based on this article:

http://www.heretical.com/costello/13gleftb.html

Wartime Abortions

Neither British nor American statistics, which indicate that wartime promiscuity reached its peak in the final stages of the war, take account of the number of irregularly conceived pregnancies that were terminated illegally. Abortionists appear to have been in great demand during the war. One official British estimate suggests that one in five of all pregnancies was ended in this way, and the equivalent rate for the United States indicates that the total number of abortions for the war years could well have been over a million.

These projections are at best merely a hypothetical barometer of World War II’s tremendous stimulus to extra-marital sexual activity. The highest recorded rate of illegitimate births was not among teenage girls, as might have been expected. Both British and American records indicate that women between twenty and thirty gave birth to nearly double the number of pre-war illegitimate children. Since it appears that the more mature women were the ones most encouraged by the relaxed morals of wartime to ‘enjoy’ themselves, it may be surmized that considerations of fidelity were no great restraint on the urge of the older married woman to participate in the general rise in wartime sexual promiscuity. (pp. 277-278)
Unmarried Mothers

The wartime rise in illegitimacy rates put pressure on the public welfare authorities in Britain and the United States to assume the burden of a social problem which wartime conditions had greatly accelerated. Historically, the unmarried mother had been made an object of disgrace, to be pilloried in the market place or forced to stand at the Church door on Sundays shrouded in a while sheet. In World War II, however, the unmarried mother became a candidate for social welfare rather than a target for moral outrage. (p. 278)
Wartime Delinquency and the ‘Patriotutes’

The impact of World War II was to effect quite dramatic shifts in the behaviour and attitude of society. ‘Total war is the most catastrophic instigator of social change the world has ever seen, with the possible exception of violent revolution,’ was how a leading American sociologist put it. Francis E. Merrill, a professor at Dartmouth College, observed in his 1946 study how wartime duty had transformed the American nation into a ‘people doing new things – grimly, protestingly, gladly, semi-hysterically – but all changing the pattern of their lives to some extent under the vast impersonality of total war.’

Millions of families work out new adjustments, as the wife and mother plays the roles of the absent husband and father. Millions of women go to work for the first time in their lives, often at hard and exacting manual labour in shipyard and aircraft factories. Millions of their children somehow learn to fend for themselves and come home from school to an empty and motherless house. Millions of wives, sweethearts, mothers, and fathers are under constant nervous tension with their loved ones in active theatres of operations. Millions of wives learn to live without their husbands, mothers without their sons, children without their fathers, girls without their beaux.

The universal wartime disruption of family life would have its most profound effect on adolescents, who by the final years of World War II were creating a major juvenile delinquency problem in every warring nation. Arrests of teenagers were up, no matter whether it was Munich, Manchester or Milwaukee. The files of the German SD security police, British probation officers, and juvenile courts across the United States attest that juvenile sex delinquency was one of the most widespread social problems of the war.

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There was nothing inconsistent between what you wrote and what I wrote. Sex out of wedlock was considered a no-no and any female who did it was a slut per se. That didn't mean people didn't do it. They were doing it all over the place, only it was not considered socially acceptable in America and it was generally punished when it was discovered, one way or another. That's why Hollywood would melodramatize this kind of thing to the point of coming up with a suicide which even then made practically no sense outside of an entertainment melodramatic context.

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Why was it so accepted in 1942's "Casablanca"? Ilsa didn't commit suicide - and that poor Bulgarian refugee new bride was willing to literally "be raped" by the lovable Louis to get to America with her husband and obviously NOT contemplating suicide.

Do you also miss that many, many girls and women STILL commit suicide, in the modern sexually liberalized USA, often when romantic relationships don't work out?

https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures

So again - I'm not quite buying your personal interpretation in ANY regards and I have a strong suspicion your own view of the (supposed) Puritanical sexual mores of WWII is not accurate. Did you somehow miss the whole "Roaring 20's" era and all those pre-code 1930's movies which OFTEN dealt with adultery plotlines with no "moral consequence" lesson involved, at all? It is true that then "code" Hollywood started being more moral - but the idea this actually followed real-world morality vs. an ideal that only a small minority was pushing - like Hays himself, may very well be false and merely modern liberal propaganda>>>>>>

The Motion Picture Production Code was the set of industry moral guidelines that was applied to most United States motion pictures released by major studios from 1930 to 1968. It is also popularly known as the Hays Code, after Will H. Hays, who was the president of the Motion Picture Producers and Distributors of America (MPPDA) from 1922 to 1945. Under Hays' leadership, the MPPDA, later known as the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA), adopted the Production Code in 1930 and began strictly enforcing it in 1934. The Production Code spelled out what was acceptable and what was unacceptable content for motion pictures produced for a public audience in the United States. From 1934 to 1954, the code was closely identified with Joseph Breen, the administrator appointed by Hays to enforce the code in Hollywood. The film industry followed the guidelines set about by the code well into the late 1950s, but during this time the code began to weaken due to the combined impact of television, influence from foreign films, bold directors (such as Otto Preminger) pushing the envelope, and intervention from the courts, including the Supreme Court.[1][2] In 1968, after several years of minimal enforcement, the outdated Production Code was replaced by the MPAA film rating system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Production_Code

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LOL. You still don't get it, do you? You said it yourself in your post. Why did Hollywood itself develop the production code? Have you bothered to consider that? The answer is that too much of the public itself wouldn't stand for the "adult" content that the "pre-code" movies were trending toward, and the industry was afraid (this prior to 1960's First Amendment development in the courts) that the government might eventually be pressured into putting them out of business. Moreover (and though I didn't mention it previously) the 1950's reached the pinnacle of these sort of attitudes, with IN HARM's WAY in 1964 coming out at the very tail end of the era of prevailing 1950's sensibilities. I'm sorry if for some reason you can't get your mind around the nuances of what was once understood by practically every rational adult American about what was socially acceptable and what wasn't, but that's the way things were.

Moreover, your comments about CASABLANCA are especially perplexing; Ilsa was never raped in CASABLANCA, and neither was the Bulgarian girl, who instead was being offered a proposition that in modern terms amounted to sexual harassment. Furthermore, it is clear from the film she'd decided in her own mind she could put up with it, her principal misgiving being the guilt she would feel from in effect cheating on her husband, as well as the consequences if he should ever find out. She makes it quite clear in the movie that that is really the only thing that is really bothering her, and that she was trying to get "Monsieur Rick" to help her rationalize her decision, and believe you me brother women are quite capable of being that cold-blooded about something that would seem to be as personal as that. (Indeed, most of the purpose of that sequence was to imply that Ilsa would just about literally throw herself at Rick later in the movie to get what she wanted for her husband, too.) Anyway, that did not amount to forcible rape by a long shot, and is something quite different to what happened to the girl in the movie under discussion, who was just plain physically attacked. I realize here that contrasting and comparing the two distinct scenarios gets us on the slippery slope of what constitutes "rape" and what doesn't, and though I can also guess what an ardent "feminist" might say, and am well-familiar with what lawyers might say, it is at its a root a philosophical question too nuanced to try to debate here.

This is all the more true given that it doesn't matter in this conversation. My post was about the mores of the time, and the way that Hollywood dealt with them in dramatic contexts, which is entirely about playing on the public's typically vague yet readily palpable emotional state than it is about any philosophical ideas. I think that the more realistic or sophisticated viewer of this movie in 1964 (especially the more realistic or sophisticated female viewer, someone who in real life was a lot like the Bulgarian girl in CASABLANCA) would have thought that this sequence was ridiculous in the extreme, while mushier-headed people might have swallowed it whole, while yet others might have taken it as an unrealistic exaggeration of the otherwise very real sense of violation that would have been involved. My guess is that third reaction is probably what led filmmakers like Preminger to stick things like this in the movies of the era - it was probably the main reason truly grown up audiences would tolerate that kind of fantasy, even though they knew from personal observation or experience that in most cases a girl in her kind of trouble would have found a less extreme way out. (I might also add that CASABLANCA is a much more sophisticated movie that this one with much deeper writing; Preminger was going much more for "cheap shot" emotional plot angles than anything you see in the much more intellectually and emotionally refined CASABLANCA. One thing that never ceases to amaze me is how smart the writers of the latter film were; a lot of them were pretty young when they wrote it.)

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Moreover, your comments about CASABLANCA are especially perplexing; Ilsa was never raped in CASABLANCA, and neither was the Bulgarian girl, who instead was being offered a proposition that in modern terms amounted to sexual harassment. Furthermore, it is clear from the film she'd decided in her own mind she could put up with it, her principal misgiving being the guilt she would feel from in effect cheating on her husband, as well as the consequences if he should ever find out.
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Ilsa engaged in an extramarital affair with Rick in Paris. Sure, she thought her husband was dead, then - but it seemed pretty clear to me unmarried sex (at a minimum) did occur between Ilsa and Rick, if not outright volitional adultery. And as you point out - Ilsa was quite willing to sleep with Rick again "because she was so much in love" with Rick, still - as it turned out.

One reason this got past "the code" was because it was all set in Europe and "European morals" just didn't count all that much - but the movie was a huge success with American audiences anyway - hardly a sign the general public was all that concerned with Puritan morality at that time.

Also I am reading right now an excellent biography of Hedy Lamarr and her life during that period of time. Hedy lived a very, very promiscuous lifestyle and her various serial marriages and boyfriends were well covered in the news. Hedy (nor other Hollywood women stars, especially) were NOT ostracized in the least with their lifestyles. Hedy was extraordinarily popular coast-to-coast in innumerable personal appearances she made to sell government war bonds in 1942. During her first two week tour she sold $25 million worth of bonds - and this all after her brief marriage and divorce to her second husband and then quite publicly dating George Montgomery, et. al.

What did you think of the "cheating wife" in "Best Years of Our Lives"? Was SHE terribly ostracized by all her "friends and neighbors" in that movie? I am not remembering that, myself.

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You come across as a comparatively young person who doers not remember the world before the "Sexual Revolution". If you don't know about that, you will almost invariably mostly if not completely misunderstand the sexual content of all of these movies. All the writing in them will be largely over your head. I don't know what to tell you to do about it. Everything I've ever looked up about the subject of the Sexual Revolution was written to make sense of it to people who had lived through it rather than to explain it to somebody who knows practically nothing about it. Maybe you need to find a retired sex education teacher from the early 1960's and she could explain it to you.

The bottom line is that it was a different world before the Sexual Revolution than after; and your posts show no understanding of that, the Sexual Revolution itself, or even why it was called a "revolution". To make a long story short, though, before the Sexual Revolution you simply did not wear your sexuality on your sleeve the way that is so typical today. It was a world 180 degrees different than today's. Sex was considered "dirty" by just about every responsible American alive no matter how many lovers they had or how much they liked it, and so even the most promiscuous people normally did not talk about it out loud except among people they felt would understand their very small minority point of view. The Hugh Hefners of the era were very few and exceptionally far in between. They were seen as out of step with the mainstream at best. Even people who subscribed to his magazine thought he himself was kind of "out there" if they bothered to think about him at all (and that includes even my own father and his friends). Probably his real genius was in finding a way to get his point of view out there without being shut down for obscenity (a word all educated and most uneducated people used to be as familiar with even as today it is practically unknown in popular culture). The fact that the movies liked to titillate people's imaginations with forbidden sex was just because of that - it was not only sexual but forbidden, and therefore exciting for both reasons to many movie-goers. The same was true of the output of "Hollywood gossip columnists" (a cliche of the era) who wrote about the antics of the Stars, something that got rather less play than the entertainment media of today; some women readers of the era got caught up in that stuff, but there at least as much of a tendency to regard Hollywood personalities as a bunch of lowlifes as you can find among many people today. That was also why the authorities in society in general were mistrustful of the movie industry and why the industry felt it necessary to set up the production code as a defense in the first place. The movie industry (gossip columnists and all) had a tendency to encourage people to think thoughts that traditional authorities promoting traditional morals had generally always tried to suppress. And those authorities in turn had the wholehearted support of most of the public (or at least the public that voted, went to church every Sunday, joined the PTA, and mattered the most). I must wonder if you realize how much of contemporary society in 2015 is by even recent historical standards a trash culture that was not only non-existent but even unimaginable to the typical World War II veteran in 1960. You seem to be trying to judge these old movies by modern standards and it makes about as much sense as trying to run a gasoline engine on diesel fuel and expecting it to run.

Take for instance the movie you cited, THE BEST YEARS OF OUR LIVES. I have more than one copy of this movie and have watched it many times. Judging from your comments, you have totally misunderstood the sexual aspects of this movie. Virginia Mayo's character was a stereotypical party girl of the era whom poor dumb Fred Derry (Dana Andrews) fell for because she was probably the first hot blonde that ever gave him a second look in his life. He in turn had been a drug store "soda jerk" (about the 1940 equivalent of a guy working at McDonald's now) who tested high on his military induction exams and so was made an officer bombardier in the Army Air Forces in spite of what till then had been an utter lack of significant accomplishments in his life, and not being bad looking she had fallen for his looks, most especially while wearing his officer's uniform. He then deployed to England (as we would say nowadays) to fight the war in the nose of a B-17 Flying Fortress heavy bomber while with her hot looks and party girl personality she proceeded to have a good time without him while he was gone. This was yet another wartime cliche, and that is why it is in the movie. Practically every grown-up in that era knew, knew of, or had heard about this kind of relationship. That's why it was a cliche.

Party girls are nothing new to the human race. They have probably been around since before Bathsheba decided to bathe where King David could see her. Where you err is in assuming that this was acceptable. It was most certainly NOT acceptable. Even today we would call somebody who treated her husband the way she did in the movie a slut, or even a whore, and even now we would not countenance her disloyal, adulterous behavior. The same is true in the movie (although in those days most people would have referred to her as merely, "that kind of girl", while making an unpleasant face). That's why Frederick March's family doesn't leave Dana Andrews to his fate when he arrives at her apartment and can't raise her with her doorbell, and instead he eventually winds up at Frederick March's home to spend the night. They already suspect what's up, even though they would rather put off thinking the worst. They get it, and the 1946 audience would get it, even if some Gen-Xer in the year 2015 might not. Likewise, they do not need to discuss it. It wasn't something people discussed out loud much in 1946 outside of some place like a really bad neighborhood. It was considered too ugly to talk about. Moreover, classy people like Frederick March and his family didn't need to say anything to each other about their misgivings about what they were hoping the situation would not turn out to be. Everybody knew already what you seem to have missed.

Moreover, the people Virginia Mayo's character hangs around with were again, stereotypical lowlifes. While some poor dumb sap like Dana Andrews is playing target for German flak guns over Europe at 25,000 feet in an effort to save Mankind from the Nazi Menace for a couple hundred dollars a month or so, back home there were guys making ten times the money with no comparable risk doing God knows what in the wartime economy (the implication here being that Virginia Mayo's boyfriend was a black marketeer, bypassing the wartime rationing regime) and screwing the absent warriors' hot blonde party-girl wives in their patriotic absence. Because she is Dana Andrews's WIFE (and not merely his girlfriend), everybody on his side tries to give her the benefit of the doubt, including he himself, before the realization sets in that, in the parlance of the times, "she's just no good."

Moreover, this aspect of the plot also should make you focus on the issue of wartime marriages, as well. Despite her party-girl tendencies, they did get married anyway. During that time it was surprisingly very common for young, naive, frightened and simultaneously excited people like Dana Andrew's character to get married to people they scarcely knew after only three, two, or even a single solitary date. God knows what all was going through these people's minds, but one thing that was clear to the typical person was that you simply weren't supposed to "go to bed with" somebody without being married the way your parents, your teachers, your boy scout leader, your church, and your favorite Uncle Bob had always told you. Countless couples observed this during the war in a way practically unimaginable today, and that's why they did it. They had all grown up being taught that you didn't "shack up" with somebody without marriage unless you were were trash, and they didn't think of themselves as trash. Even where the guys might have more "liberal" ideas, you can bet that most of the young women did not (they were still usually pretty reluctant even in the 1970's or early 80's). Naturally, once they had broken the ice and lost their virginity, some folks then found it easy to stray, as both some guys did once they were deployed overseas to locations offering such opportunities and as some women like Virginia Mayo did back home. Google up the concept of the "Dear John letter" to see what it looked like when the girl wasn't as much of a party girl yet still didn't want to wait for her impulsively-accepted husband to come back home. And then, of course, there were those folks that never had any traditional morals to start with.

So, lots of ugly things happened. But where you are mistaken is in assuming that was because they happened they were considered acceptable. No one thought they were acceptable. They were considered ugly and selfish, and to the morally rectified, utterly immoral at every level. The audiences in 1940's, 50's, and even 60's and 70's knew this already and didn't need the filmmaker to explain it to them. And whenever courts or commanding officers had to deal with them, it was with a tone of disdain or even contempt. A great example dramatized for your edification is in an episode of the TV series *12 O'clock High* that appeared in 1964 or '65, where a B-17 crewman who knocked up his English girlfriend but wouldn't cure the infraction by the normally accepted method of marrying her was grounded by his C.O. The C.O. was a one-star general who was the main character in the show, and he grounded the man saying that he didn't trust a man in combat with nine other lives depending upon him who wasn't responsible enough to know what to do when he got his girlfriend pregnant. He concluded by telling the crewman to come back to him when he made up his mind whether he was a man or a little boy. This would have been a prevailing attitude not only in World War Two but even in the mid-sixties among an audience mature enough to be interested in watching a heavy TV drama about a heavy bombardment group flying missions back during the war, and that's why it was written in there as an example of how the series's main character, the C.O., showed his superior leadership ability.

Maybe what you should be doing if you really want to understand this is to watch a whole bunch of TV shows from the 1960's (including lots and lots of episodes of the major sitcoms) and then do the same thing for the 1980's, and look at the huge difference. Sex was avoided or minimized 99% of the time in old TV shows as much as it is embraced in the later ones. It is yet another reflection of the sexual revolution that is plain to see. In fact, if you have not the time to do what I just suggested, just watch one single show - I DREAM OF JEANIE - and you'll see it all right there. The premise was that an astronaut splashes down off course and washes up on the shore of an uninhabited Pacific island and discovers a genie in a bottle lying on the beach there, releasing her from it after a confinement of about 2,000 years. She turns out to be a hot little blonde who not only explains that since he released her she now belongs to him exclusively, but she insists on calling him "Master" and also immediately falls madly in love with him. He, in return, never lays one single finger on her until they actually finally get married in the fifth and final year of the series. Until then she sleeps alone in her bottle in her silk pajamas every single night (and don't think I was wasn't looking - we were ALL looking). The audience of that time accepted that premise with no problem for five years on a major big-three TV network. It ran from 1965 to 1970. Today, decades post-sexual revolution, that premise wouldn't last five whole episodes (you can just imagine what the producers of *Two-and-a-Half Men* would have done with something like that). I still remember a disc jockey in the early 1980's announcing that the *Cheers* season finale would be airing that night and that a big audience was expected to tune in to see whether Sam and Diane would "finally do it." That would have been unthinkable only a dozen or so years earlier.

One other thing you might do is listen to the hit pop song "Harper Valley PTA" from about 1968 or '69. It's all about how the traditional forces of a small town ("Harper Valley") go after a widowed (even then, they weren't willing to take on the still-controversial issue of divorce) single mother they think is a floozy (Google that, too) but, in the spirit of the 1960's social revolutions, she doesn't take it but instead attacks them back for their hypocrisy, as she exposes publicly all their own hitherto covered-up peccadilloes. (Curiously enough, when that song was finally ready for TV and turned into a TV movie in 1978 and a series in 1981, the same actress who previously played "Jeanie" played the single mother). It's a way to see the pre- and post-sexual revolution cultures crashing headlong into each other in one performance only about three minutes long.

At any rate, the people watching THE BEST YEARS OF OUR LIVES or CASABLANCA in the 1940's knew what they were seeing as much as you clearly do not seem to, and the same would be true of this movie.

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You come across as a comparatively young person who doers not remember the world before the "Sexual Revolution". If you don't know about that, you will almost invariably mostly if not completely misunderstand the sexual content of all of these movies. All the writing in them will be largely over your head. I don't know what to tell you to do about it. Everything I've ever looked up about the subject of the Sexual Revolution was written to make sense of it to people who had lived through it rather than to explain it to somebody who knows practically nothing about it. Maybe you need to find a retired sex education teacher from the early 1960's and she could explain it to you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I was born in 1948 and graduated HS in 1966. I quit college in my Sophomore year to marry my pregnant GF (who was still in HS herself at the time.) I got a job almost immediately with IBM in the St. Louis office but I grew up in a small town only 15 miles from downtown St. Louis - but across the river and much more like a typical midwestern small town than even big city suburb. I WANTED to marry my GF and felt it was the right (manly) thing to do. Also I wanted daily sex - and she delivered. ;-) She was probably forced (or at least pressured) by her much older parents - especially her Mom - to marry me merely because dear old Mom wanted to finally be free of this rather troublesome child born almost 20 years after her own first son. I am currently married (for the 4th time) and have been divorced 3 times.

I spent 30 years with IBM and retired with a small pension at age 49 in 1997. Since then I've kept busy with all kinds of work around the house and various hobbies - including studying history.

Your own stated views of history just seem incredibly simplistic to me. If not outright prejudicial. Like conservative sexual mores are somehow a "bad thing". I would agree that before 1970 sex WAS largely attempted to be kept much more private and more conservative sexual mores prevailed - with benefits FAR outweighing the negatives. The principle benefit was that in 1960 the USA nationwide born OOW statistic was just about 5%. (And this way before RvW and easy abortion.) But the societal "pressure" for young unmarried pregnant/sexually active women to commit suicide just did not exist. Period. At least, not any more than in times like now when sexual liberal mores predominate - as the very statistics on suicides certainly seem to indicate and the one detailed story I already posted.

And BTW - guess who was the Governor of Texas during the "Bonnie and Clyde" era? (Hint: not any man. ;-) Women of ability could do all kinds of things in the USA even before WWII. And, in fact, even before the Civil War - one of the richest women in America in the 1850's was a brilliant Southern widow who managed to accumulate multiple plantations and huge wealth and retain control even when
marrying again.
http://www.womenhistoryblog.com/2014/07/adelicia-acklen.html

And you also mentioned ONE USAAC pilot disciplined for sex in "12 O'Clock High" - LOL. Maybe a few such incidents occurred in real life in 1942 - but by 1944 when literally millions of GI's and USN sailors were in Great Britain - so many pregnancies resulted that adjudication was left to local magistrates to handle - rather than ANY military adjudication - and a common and standard child support was set at 1 pound a week per child. Read Atkinson's brilliantly detailed WWII trilogy "The Liberation Trilogy".

http://www.amazon.com/Liberation-Trilogy-Boxed-Set/dp/1627790594/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1423934756&sr=1-1&keywords=atkinson+trilogy

You might also want to read Thorpe's "The Detective" published in 1965 which has this kind of infidelity as the major subplot - and where "societal disapproval" just wasn't a consideration in the major city locations of that novel. See - that's a major deal in this whole question of sexual politics mores - the urbanization of America that largely occurred in the first half of the 20th century. This meant much more anonymity and privacy for sexual indiscretions and possibly negative consequences of same. Read "Butterfield 8" and other novels by John O'Hara for certainly a more nuanced view of sex and sexual mores of the 1930's and 40's.

And never forget that "societal disapproval" of drinking alcohol was also very strong in 1920 - by the time of Prohibition local laws against alcohol had already been passed in more than 50% of USA counties - which is why Prohibition passed anyway in that very difficult COTUS Amendment procedure. But such "societal disapproval" meant nothing at all regarding ACTUAL alcohol consumption in the next 10 years - principally fueled by urban environs.

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Well, there you go. You should know what I'm saying, then. Yet, you have this funny way of overlooking the obvious. For instance, the main character in *Butterfield 8* had all the earmarks a prostitute (despite her persistent denials) who lost her virginity when she was 13 to one of her mother's boyfriends and "loved every minute of it." The name of the story itself was the answering service number her "boyfriends" used to contact her in an era before pagers or cell phones, and as far as that goes it must be understood that relatively few Americans, and even fewer females, used answering services in those days, which existed primarily for business people's purposes. She was a disaster area on two feet (talk about a "party girl") who ended the story by committing suicide. There was nothing normal about either her or the scuzzy people she hung around with. This was definitely not the girl you would "bring home to mama." For some strange reason you keep conflating the sexual mores of the seamy underbelly and losers of American society with the normal middle-class values system that prevailed not only on the surface but even underneath (at least as long as some people didn't have too much to drink).

I'm also plenty familiar with the "hard core" detective novels of the past 100 years and again you conflate what was always supposed to be a look at the trashier elements of society with regular American middle-class folks with regular jobs and kids in school and the like. I still remember when while young expressing an interest in such matters only to have my father ask me pointedly, "why?" After I became an adult and had a chance to see what that was all about first-hand I saw his point. About the only thing that kind of thing is good for is how it can be adapted to heavily romanticized escapist entertainment you can dip into briefly every now and then while living your real life far away from real prostitutes, pimps, gamblers, drunks, drug dealers, sleazy detectives, crooked cops, and assorted hoods and thugs of various kinds, just as the vast majority of us actually do. It looks infinitely better on Humphrey Bogart up on a movie screen than it does in real life.

Drinking is a whole other subject and since it is at best tangential to sex I won't get into it here. However, at the risk of changing the subject, I might add that your take on Ma Ferguson is yet another distortion. She was put up by the pols of the era who were controlled by her husband's political machine when he was impeached from office as governor and wound up legally banned from holding the position ever again. She thus became his proxy, his stand-in. Apart from that, her fundamental weakness as a candidate is revealed when you observe that the Republican opponents she had did better against her than any other Republican candidate for governor between the end of Reconstruction in about 1870 and the election of of Bill Clements in 1978. In this regard, you have to remember that like other former Confederate states Texas was about literally owned by the Democratic Party during that century so once her husband's pols got her through the primary general election victory was effectively assured. Texas was the land of the "yellow dog Democrat", i.e., a huge majority of Democratic voters who would vote not only for Pa Ferguson's wife but even for a yellow dog before they would vote Republican.

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Again you are just wrong - in this case about "The Detective". Joe Leland has a college degree and meets his future wife AT college. He becomes a policeman - one of the "new, educated" policemen in the fictional city of Port Smith - but think Boston or NYC. He gets promoted to "Detective" in the police force right before Dec. 7, 1941. Shortly thereafter Pearl Harbor he joins the USAAC and becomes a fighter pilot and is sent to England. He becomes a noted ace there and his wife continues her education - pursuing a Master's Degree while also working part time jobs and caring for their infant daughter. This is about as "Middle class" as there is - even Upper Middle Class. While he is away one of her Psychology Professors starts pursuing her, romantically. She eventually succumbs because of some deep-seated psychological problems caused by her childhood as an orphan and bouts with depression. Joe finds out immediately upon his return after the war ends. He doesn't understand it but tries to forgive her and put it behind him when SHE makes the decision not to divorce him and marry the other guy - but she just can't actually do that.

Joe finds out she is seeing "Jerry" again and eventually leaves - not just her but Port Smith - resigning from the police force and moving about 100 miles away to another fictional smaller city "Manitoba" - where he starts work as a private investigator working for "Manitoba Insurance Co."

OK - maybe you would consider this a "hard core" detective story - but it never seemed that way to me - at least not like others I've read. The wife could have years of fairly normal self-control and quite productive work in education administration. She soon follows Joe to Manitoba - with their daughter - and they basically start a "steady dating" relationship while maintaining separate domiciles. Jerry out of the picture for years - even though he desperately wanted to marry her, himself. Lots of women have had such demons and still do - probably more now than ever since so many girls are now raised without ANY "Father figure" in the picture at all, which can lead to almost neurotic flirting/need for male attention as they reach puberty and young adulthood (see "Blue Sky" for one representative movie). BTW - do you know statistically the single greatest category of abuser for kids in the USA? Not natural married fathers - that is WAY down the list. Number 1 is "single mothers" (not just "sexual abuse" but all abuse, including "neglect" bad enough to warrant DFACS intervention, etc.) at more than 50% total - number 2 is "live-in boyfriends", then other boyfriends, other women (step-mothers, father's girlfriends), etc. Yeah - "liberal sexuality" is just SO great!

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I don't think I follow you. That doesn't sound like detective fiction. It sounds like a soap opera. And once more, just because soap opera characters lead soap opera lives, that doesn't mean most real people do. Rather, a lot of real people are attracted to this kind of fiction because it seems more interesting than the much more prosaic real life. And when they DO in fact encounter this kind of thing in real life, only a small percentage really get any amusement out of it. The rest of us mostly try to get away from it. In real life, this kind of weirdness is a turn off - even to a certain extent for the very people who are living it. Why you continually conflate the exceptional with the usual I still don't understand.

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It's a long and complicated best selling book when first published. In fact, it was made into an "A" movie with Frank Sinatra in 1968 "The Detective". It involves many things beyond those personal basics - and the movie, in fact, changes the dates all to late '50's and '60's and ignores the whole WWII aspect.

In any case - can you appreciate (from my perspective) the irony in your own words and thinking? You went off on a whole long screed deigning to explain one young woman's suicide in terms of "all society" of "that age" (actually a mixture of 1965 mores overlaid on 1942 mores) and when I give counter single examples - well, that just doesn't count!

Even today a LOT of murders and suicides result from romance and sex "gone wrong" - because basically these are ALL very complex issues for ALL human beings to deal with. And those sucked into pornographic cartoonish views like "all sex is good", "if it feels good do it", "it's just natural - give in to your body", etc. etc. etc. are doomed to a hard fall into reality sooner or later but generally sooner for most women. (Hint: humans are a SOCIAL SPECIES - and "private activities" - at least sexual ones involving at least one other person - have this way of not remaining private for very long at all.)

I think you mentioned Playboy and Hefner in one of your posts earlier - I really hope you don't think he was any kind of actual "human sexuality" expert - all he was was a man who got rich selling sex and naked women. The purest form of misogyny there is. And women in the USA today (just overall with ever more millions now truly mired in generational welfare poverty) are far worse off than in 1960 - when they ALREADY owned/controlled more than half the wealth then in the USA - merely by remaining in marriages were they literally DID control the household wealth - and would eventually inherit it all by outliving their husbands.

An interesting article here - written by a liberal woman - on the modern history of porn>>>>>>
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2011/11/larry_flynt_hugh_hefner_and_bob_guccione_would_modern_porn_be_less_awful_if_its_founders_hadn_t_hated_women_.html

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For the last time (I hope) -- the "bad" behaviors of people dramatized in movies like this one, or Butterfield 8, or anything else you have cited, were not put into those movies because they were socially acceptable behaviors for people in American society in that time period. They were put there exactly because they were NOT socially acceptable behaviors. They were a glimpse of the seamy underbelly of American life, the one people rarely talked about in public in a society that promoted that sex was something that was to be kept private (and all the more so if it was problematical sex). Putting this kind of salacious material in movies provided a public outlet that mostly did not exist outside of a "red-light district" or anyplace else you might find a seedy "adult bookstore" or "triple-X" theater. About the only other place this kind of material might be put it in a socially acceptable (more or less) way was in sex education (which was nevertheless vigorously opposed by more conservative people) and certain legitimate news stories that would appear from time to time which involved a serious crime or other event with unavoidably sexual content.

And the fact that there was a sizable audience out there who were ready for more frank treatment of the subject doesn't mean that society had accepted that in 1965. The public's mores in that respect were really only beginning to change in a visible way right about the time this movie came out, even if by 1970 what you were seeing was something vastly more bawdy than in 1965 in a modern manifestation of the spilling open of Pandora's Box, something that still lacked universal appeal. If you are s senior as you claim to be you should recognize these basic features of that era. The fact that people had babies out of wedlock and disguised that in various ways, or did any of the other things they acknowledge freely in public TODAY (2015), did not mean that it was generally acceptable. No, no, no. All you are going to do with this argumentative assertion of yours (and "argumentative" is the word for it) is mislead younger people who might read this about how things actually were 50 or 60 or more years ago. If there is one thing that bugs me it is the spread of misinformation, and it looks no more attractive when it appears in the form of revisionist history as in any other form.

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Since our last exchange I've received two used (out of print) books I had ordered.

"Harm's Way" by Bassett and "Love, Sex & War: Changing Values 1939-45" by John Costello.

I've finished "Harm's Way" and the movie remained amazingly faithful to the book - with but a few minor plot changes. In lieu of this discussion I was interested in any further details on the motivation for Annalee's suicide - and the book did present a few more details, though very sparing. Annalee and Jere were engaged and she was in love with him, but how all that eventuated wasn't detailed. Eddington was interested in her, but only as a masochistic object of his own sadism. For him to be "dating" Annalee was actually a Navy "no-no" because she was merely an ensign and non-fraternization rules applied. OTOH, Maggie was a Lt. Nurse - an officer and socially equal with even Admiral Torrey.

In the book, the beach party was a Chaperoned co-ed group event with Maggie the designated female chaperone and Admiral Torrey actually attended as well. Two other nurses had already stripped to their underwear and gone swimming - when it became obvious the underwear became see-through anyway when wet. Later after dark, Maggie and Torrey, Powell and another Nurse, and Eddington and Annalee all separated for "private time". Annalee had no intentions of having sex with Eddington but refused all warnings about him she had received. Nevertheless she did indeed strip completely nude and go swimming while alone with him "after he turned his back". But then he did steal her clothes and force her to display herself- and then indeed brutally raped her despite her attempts to fight him off. Immediately after this she told him she was engaged to Jere Torrey AND that she was a virgin.

She didn't tell anyone what had happened to her immediately - Eddington said she had tripped and scraped her knees - the immediate damage that was evident to all as the 4 couples boarded the whaleboat to return to base. Later on she wrote two letters right before her suicide - one to Jere returning his ring and stating she still loved him but couldn't marry him and couldn't explain why. And one to Eddington stating that she was pregnant and "only you could save me but when we met this afternoon all you did was laugh. I hope I can come back as a ghost and torment you." I don't think she wanted Eddington to marry her, I think she wanted Eddington to publicly admit he had raped her and got her pregnant. Her own career as a Naval Nurse was over - since she would have been discharged by becoming pregnant, and the only faint hope she had that Jere might still love and marry her was IF Eddington admitted what he had done. Her own accusations could never have been proven, otherwise - since she HAD gone to that party voluntarily as Eddington's "date", been drinking, got alone with him, and undressed totally - all voluntarily. And Eddington was the known friend of Admiral Torrey. So yes - the known rules were stacked against her (and all young and naive women) of that time - but to blame her suicide ON those rules, instead of the lawless Eddington himself and his brutality is where I take exception to your own ideas initially stated. And in the book it is quite clear that Torrey was indeed going to courtmartial Eddington and end his own Naval career and probably send him to the brig, with the letters and suicide and his own observations at that beach party as all the proof needed. Which is ALSO why Eddington committed his own suicide - not "general social shame" but the fact he had betrayed Torrey (through his uncontrollable indiscretions - his hatred of young pretty girls caused by his own wife's sadism against him) and was going to lose his chance to fight - which is what he most wanted to do.

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I'm not going to get into the argument between yourself and Gatorman except to say I tend to side with him. Some of your arguments do have merit, but you're taking them to a wrong conclusion.

What I do want to address is a factual error in you post. It's either an error on the part of the novel's author, if you're relating accurately... or on your part, if you're interpreting wrongly. I haven't read the novel so I cannot say. I will assume the author.

The part is this:

For him to be "dating" Annalee was actually a Navy "no-no" because she was merely an ensign and non-fraternization rules applied. OTOH, Maggie was a Lt. Nurse - an officer and socially equal...


Ensigns are officers too. and she's a nurse. the same as Maggie, just lower in rank. So either the author's or your explanation as to why Annalee is "off limits" is factually wrong.



I joined the Navy to see the world, only to discover the world is 2/3 water!

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I am pretty sure I read it (and am remembering it) correctly. I got the impression it was more of a "social convention" than any strict rule. And the major idea was to provide SOME level of protection by a paternalistic Navy for it's youngest and least powerful members - and female Nurse Ensigns certainly meet that criteria. Admiral Broderick (in the book) was "entertaining" the head Nurse on the Hospital Ship in his harbor, and Cmd. (Senator) Owen was interested in Maggie (Maggie dated both Torrey and Owen at one time - while sleeping with neither) - but when Torrey requested that Hospital ship be moved closer to the upcoming "Skyhook" campaign - Broderick sent the ship but kept "his" Nurse on his island and instead ordered Maggie to the ship as head Nurse.

Of course, all of these things are very complicated in real "normal" life and doubly so in a war and on foreign lands and islands.

I am trying to do further research on some of these issues - like actual USN "regs" for Nurses in that period - and came across this interesting autobiographical article by one of the most highly decorated USN Nurses in WWII:

Did you have to take some kind of examination?

No. This was in '36. What was happening after World War I, like always, is like we're doing right now, cut, cut, cut. Somewhere along the line, I had heard that there were only 325 nurses in the Nurse Corps. Some had resigned after World War I and some had been furloughed. They were slowly calling them back. And they were also accepting new applicants. It seems that I went for the physical exam on the first of September, and on the 25th, I was on my way to the Naval hospital in Chelsea, MA.

How did the Navy brand of nursing differ from what you had experienced before?

First of all, I had been working in the operating room which meant my job was different from a regular staff nurse that was out taking care of patients. in those days, when you joined the Navy, you were on 6 month's probation. That was the stipulation. For those first 6 months, you wore the uniform and hat you graduated with and had in civilian life. They put you on a ward with an older nurse and you just learned the language and the routine.

Of course, that was the era before Navy nurses even had ranks. You were probably addressed as Miss Bernatitus.

Right. In those days we were neither fish nor fowl. We were not officers and we were not enlisted. We were in between. We did not get the pay of an officer but we got more than the enlisted.

So there you were at Chelsea, a provisional nurse. How long were you there?

I was there the first 6 months. Then the Navy would decide whether to keep you or throw you out. New nurses were coming into the Corps roughly every 2 to 4 weeks. I found myself supervising the corpsmen and keeping the books. Every morning you went on duty and had to count all the blankets, the thermometers. I think we had to count the glasses. And then you had to scrub the floors. You had to keep the curtains at the windows just so.
...
When was that?

In 1938. The Navy was a real nice place in those days. The nurses lived separately; they had their own mess. You were served; the food was always good. Life was good.

Was it as good when you got to Annapolis?

Yes. Annapolis was a smaller station. In Chelsea, the building we were quartered in was at least 100 years old. The rooms were enormous with big, high ceilings and big windows. At Annapolis, we all had individual rooms. The place was beautiful. We could date the midshipmen. Some midshipmen would get their eye on you and then you were "dragged" to the hops at the Academy. You had to walk from the nurse's quarters across the drill field to get to the dancing place. It was very nice. You learned a lot. I was exposed to things I had never been exposed to before. The older nurses would feel sorry for you and take you places. It was such a nice, close group all the time. You knew everybody in the house.
http://www.history.navy.mil/research/histories/oral-histories/wwii/navy-nurse.html

The complete article is very interesting.

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BTW - this very sad and tragic young woman's suicide occurred in 1995 and really does parallel the story subplot in "In Harm's Way">>>>>>>

On August 4, 1995, Kristin went with a group of friends to watch movies at another friend's apartment. All the people went home, but Kristin chose to remain. The boy was her friend of two years. She had no reason to worry. But she was wrong. We don't know what led up to it, but she wrote she felt safe and trusted him ... then, he raped her. She told a good friend the next day, but in spite of her friend's encouragement, she would not go to the police or a counselor and would not tell us. Her friend had been a suicide peer counselor in high school and knew how serious this could be. Kristin would not tell us because she felt we wouldn't believe her, that it would disappoint us, or that we would make her go to the police. (Experts estimate 90 percent of acquaintance rapes are never reported.)

Kristin wrote a "practice letter" to her boyfriend, saying she wanted to tell him but was afraid of his reaction. According to her journal, she did tell him, but he couldn't deal with it and broke up with her. This may not have been the only reason he broke up with her, but in her mind' it was. A Psychologist called this "secondary wounding." She had suffered the trauma of rape and then was abandoned by the love of her life.
http://www.kristinsstory.com/wp/

Personally, I think there are some universal human emotions involved here involving the very important one on one bonding of human romance/sexuality that supercede many other memes - including religion and even secular humanist "scientism".

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You are making all of this way more complicated than it is. It's just a movie (and by no means one of the greatest ones anybody ever made, either).

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I agree.

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