MovieChat Forums > Battle of the Bulge (1966) Discussion > James McArthur the lieutenant

James McArthur the lieutenant

posted 17 years ago by jeffyoung1
18 replies | jump to latest

Are there any U.S. military veterans - especially U.S. Army vets - who can possibly believe the low caliber of the lieutenant that James McArthur portrayed? That lieutenant was an absolute disgrace who should have never been commissioned a second lieutenant.
I realize that the film's producers were trying to make a dramatic portrayal of the inexperience of the American units facing the initial German onslaught, no doubt the hapless 106th Division. But doing so through the portrayal of one movie character underplays history.
In reality, American second lieutenants straight out of West Point, The Citadel, or the Virginia Military Institute would have led and fought with far greater fortitude than the McArthur 2LT character.
The second lieutenants out of the U.S. Army Officer Candidate School would have proven a tougher fiber. I should know, I graduated from the U.S. Army OCS many, many years ago.
The officer candidates at the U.S. Army OCS in Fort Benning were primarily sergeants (E5) and staff sergeants (E6). These were experienced seasoned men who would not have panicked or been negligent. The rest of the officer candidates were made up of corporals or specialist four's (E4), and the rest made up of senior NCOs, warrant officers, and the former civilians, known as college-options - civilians with college degrees going thru OCS. The college-options were the weakest group. Attrition was normally 50%. Out of six college options in my OCS class, only 3 made it to graduation.
That was the purpose of the U.S. Army OCS. It wasn't to produce brilliant tactians like West Point, or even VMI or The Citadel. OCS strived to produce quality commissioned officers who were persistent and would stand their ground and not give up when the going got tough. It wasn't to produce super soldiers, either, like Ranger School. OCS was a mental, psychological, and emotional program designed to cull out those individuals who weren't stubborn or persistent, or who would walk away in the face of difficulty. Hence I saw guys bigger, stronger, and faster than me quit OCS because they didn't have the heart to stand firm and go through with it. Appearances can be deceiving and size and strength and physical prowess are not necessarily the hallmarks of courage and leadership. That's how I saw one tough, 5-foot, 1-inch female officer candidate make it through OCS. She did it on her own skill, intelligence, teamwork, perseverance, and guts, while still remaining a woman and acting like a woman. I never heard her make one complaint once in all of the 14 weeks of OCS.
There's another category, direct commission in wartime. Enlisted soldiers who demonstrate outstanding leadership potential, toughness, battle skill are sometimes directly promoted to second lieutenant.
This McArthur character of a useless second lieutenant was obviously not the product of West Point, the military institutes, Officer Candidate School, nor direct commission. I cannot speak for the college ROTC programs because I have no experience with it and the quality of commissioned officers coming from ROTC programs varies.
Even though the McArthur second lieutnenat character learns courage and leadership in the end, that was not how the U.S. Army intends or builds commissioned officers. Courage and leadership are expected of the man and the woman even before those gold second lieutenant's bars are pinned onto the uniform epaulets.

[–] MadTom 17 years ago

I'm a retired US Army reserve component Armor/Cavalry field grader. I was commissioned through Air Force ROTC, did a few years in the Air Force before I saw the light and defected to the Army. ;-)

I just see 2LT Weaver (MacArthur's character) as a Hollywood stock character with little or no basis in reality, like much of the stuff in this movie.

[–] jkholman 15 years ago

I am a Gulf War veteran. The Lieutenant I worked for reminded me alot of Lt. Weaver from this film. And being an older soldier (forty-two at the time, and a private, if you can believe that), I tended to be like the sergeant with my Lieutenant. I looked after him when he needed it, and was happy and proud to see him grow into a fine officer. The few times I speak with him, I still call him sir (I am a civilian again). By the way, there was another old private and he was even older than me. Old dogs.

- JKHolman

[–] jeffyoung1 15 years ago

Sorry...I can't stop heaping scorn on that cowardly second lieutenant, 2LT Weaver, who stood up and surrendered, when the Germans didn't even see him. I keep wondering, as I'm a military veteran myself, how in the hell did this guy obtain a commission in the United States Army as a second lieutenant? It couldn't have been a battlefield commission. Those are awarded typically to courageous, experienced enlisted men, something Weaver wasn't. Weaver couldn't have been from Officer Candidate School, either. Typical OCS candidates are already experienced enlisted men, usually junior NCOs, although OCS candidates are sometimes former civilians and rarely, senior NCOs, or even more rare, warrant officers. These are the running type, either. I also don't expect to see a West Point graduate, or someone from The Citadel, or VMI, running from a fight as easily as 2LT Weaver. My only educated guess is that Weaver is a recent college graduate out of ROTC. I do not judge or stereotype ROTC. Many excellent commissioned officers come out of ROTC, but because the ROTC programs cover so many colleges and universities, it's easier for an unsuitable person to slip through the cracks. That was the case of 2LT Weaver, who should have been assigned as a combat service support officer, not a line infantry officer. That man was not tactically proficient nor was he inclined to be. No, I'm not against the actor himself, James McArthur, a very good actor. I'm scornful of his movie character, 2LT Weaver.

If I had been 2LT Weaver, and I'll be honest here - Staff Sergeant Dusquene, that strapping, tough, six-footer with the true warrior spirit - would have been my backbone and source of courage at that moment in the forest when there were just the two of us. I would have been buoyed by his fighting spirit to take up two hand grenades and with SSG Dusquene brandishing two grenades, the two of us could have hefted four live grenades at the few Germans from the halftrack before they knew what was happening. Also, I would have made sure that I picked up a Thompson M1A1 submachinegun or a M2 submachinegun and the two of us would be pouring down a hail of .45 caliber bullets onto the surviving Germans. After the hand grenades there would only be a few surviving German soldiers who had only their bolt-action rifles. Yeah, there was a German soldier on the halftrack with a light machine gun but I would have instructed SSG Dusquene to land a grenade inside the halftrack first. We wouldn't have considered ourselves heroes, just survivors who took out a number of the enemy during our escape. The problem is, 2LT Weaver didn't allow SSG Dusquene to be a source of courage. His need for self-preservation was even stronger than his fear. Yes, every fighting man feels fear but good ones keep fighting. Anyone who doesn't feel fear is psychologicall ill. You just have to keep fighting. When Weaver stood up and surrendered, he left SSG Dusquene in a losing position. If Weaver had chosen to fight, then at least the two of them with the element of surpise had a chance. But Dusquene knew he couldn't fight alone, and not with Weaver standing up exposed. I really felt sorry for SSG Dusquene when the German SS murdered him. That was a terrible loss of a brave man. SSG Dusquene should have been given given a battlefield promotion to second lieutenant. He would have been far, far, far more effective than Weaver.

[–] MadTom 15 years ago

Just for the record, I have a copy of the novelization of the screenplay, and it specified that Weaver (actually "Shreaver" in the novelization and, I'm guessing, in the first draft of the script) was an OCS graduate. :-P

[–] SipteaHighTea 15 years ago

During the Vietnam War, the Army had a crash course for young enlisted men to become sergeants. They were known as "Shake and Bake." Some of them became good sergeants while others were complete flops. In his book "Steel my Soliders Hearts", Col. David Hackworth had to get rid of many of his sergeants even though most of them were "lifers", because they still did not know how to soldier and to lead men. They were most likely to get you killed off than help you survive on the battlefield. Many sergeants play office politics like the officers and only care about their next promotion and get a medal. Where were the NCOs during the Walter Reed Hospital scandels? If you can have bad officers, then you can have bad sergeants. Sergeants are human like the rest of the Army and in the rest of the armed forces: Some are good, some are not.

[–] nxgn_not_not 14 years ago

Now I'm Not like saying I can rilly understand all this
but
after seeing "Dan-O" pop up and surrender
I suddenly had a lot more understanding of how some
"leaders"
get popped by thier own troops
I was so like
Uh? Gimme a break!

& then he sees all the like POWs get gunned down
& he's not even pissed
KoJack is like so hot just hearing about the city
& Dan-O is like "U need 2 calm down"

I know passion can like fade
but I think I'd be a tad werked up if I had been the only one that had like ex-scap-ped alive

Dann-O pretty much ruint it 4 me

U can get happy in the same pant U got pissed in. - Sue

[–] jeffyoung1 14 years ago

I'm not griping at you, MadTom, I will be criticising the author of the book you read. Obviously this guy knew only two things about U.S. Army Officer Candidate School: jack and s**t. Of all the people who graduated in my OCS class, 145 men and women out of an original 250 starting students, of the people I personally knew, none would have backed down or ran like the second lieutenant portrayed by James McArthur. To this day I retain an extremely high pride of OCS. OCS second lieutenants used to be NCOs, even a few warrant officers, so the pride of the Noncommissioned Officer is embedded in that class of commissioned officers.

Again, I'm not denigrating the excellent actor, James McArthur. We're talking about his character. Sure, this 2LT rapidly grows a pair and in the end is a tough fighter and leader of his men as if they guy was always like that.

When I came out of OCS as a second lieutenant, I was ready to go to war against the Soviets and the Warsaw Pact. Bring on World War III!!! That's how motivated and nuts I was. Thank goodness the Soviet Union peacefully faded into history. When I was stationed in Germany during the time of the USSR and the Warsaw Pact, I kept saying, go ahead and invade, Russians! My dream was to kill a Russian second or first lieutenant because I scored 'sharpshooter' with my M16A1 in Basic Training and was itching to kill enemy soldiers. Christianity teaches us that it is not a sin to kill enemy soldiers fair and square in wartime. Kill as many enemy soldiers as you can, as long as you did so fairly. I wanted to rip the shoulder epaulets off that dead Russian lieutenant so that I could mail it home to my father. It made no difference that had the Soviets invaded West Germany at the time, it was highly unlikely I would have lived very long with my soldiers, before substantial reinforcements could arrive from Stateside.

If I was that second lieutenant in the movie being urged on my 6 foot 2 inches tall staff sergeant to lob grenades at the German patrol, even though being outnumbered five to one, I would have gleefully gone along with that tough NCO. I can see myself and him lobbing two grenades apiece at the *beep* Nazi road patrol. After the four grenades blow away at least half the German patrol, the staff sergeant and I would have gone at the survivors with our M3 greaseguns, from different directions. (I would have found myself a M3 or M1 Thompson) As a new OCS graduate all I could remember was that I was taught and mentally conditioned to FIGHT! I wouldn't have attacked that German road patrol all by myself. But with that big, mean, tough NCO by my side, yeah, sure, I would have gone kamikaze at the krauts. I can guarantee you that with the element of surprise and casualties, the *beep* road patrol would have assumed they were being attacked by superior numbers and the survivors would have surrendered to me and the staff sergeant.

[–] MadTom 14 years ago

I said up front on this thread: "I just see 2LT Weaver (MacArthur's character) as a Hollywood stock character with little or no basis in reality, like much of the stuff in this movie."

Again, HE'S A FICTIONAL HOLLYWOOD INVENTION!!! The only reason I brought up the novelization of the screenplay and the fact that it specifically mentioned that Weaver/Shreaver was supposed to be an OCS grad is that you brought up your own supposed "educated guess" that he had to have been an ROTC graduate.

You attack the screenplay/novelization writers for knowing "jack and s**t" about OCS, and then you turn around and make the exact same assumption about ROTC that they did about OCS. Where do you get off doing that?

The writers may for the most part be a bunch of hacks who, as Patton put it, "don't know anything more about real battle than they do about f---ing" (and George C. Scott may have said "fornicating" in on screen, but the real Patton used the real F-word). If we take you at your word as to your own credentials, you as an officer and a gentleman should know better!

[–] Bernnard_Black 14 years ago

All I can say is that I was an NCO for 12 years in an armor company, and I saw all kinds of new lieutenants, from the highly competent to the woefully inadequate. MacArthur's character didn't seem unrealistic to me at all.

[–] highwaystar50 14 years ago

You guys are all kind of missing the point of MacArthur's character. His character matured from being a pansy ass in the beginning of the movie to a more take charge guy towards the end. He actually sort of spoke like his Sgt. to those guys that found him hiding in the barn. In short, he grew up and the next thing you know he's taking a stand at the fuel dump directing everyone to burn it.
KS

[–] jeffyoung1 11 years ago

True, 2LT Weaver grew a pair, but it took too long. It was in the middle of a war and in a critical battle. The American Army needed a matured 2LT Weaver now, not later.

You know, had 2LT Weaver been as stubborn and feisty like his companion, the 6'3" Sergeant Dusquesne, both of them could have really torn up that small convoy of three German vehicles, using the element of surprise, tossing a few hand grenades first then letting loose with submachine guns. As a strong leadership team, Weaver and Dusquesne would have been able to round up several survivors around them and not be stuck out in the middle of nowhere in a broken-down jeep, just the two of them.

[–] jeffyoung1 14 years ago

If we former military vets think about it, only the crucible of real combat can prove the courage of men and woman.

Remember my OCS experience many years ago? At the beginning of my OCS training, there were big, tough-looking guys that I judged, based on their outward physical appearance to be shoo-ins for officer commissioning. But as the weeks went by, I kept finding myself astonished by how many of those tough-looking, physically-superior guys dropping out of OCS. They didn't want to put up with the OCS stress anymore. You see here, fellow veterans, no one wants an officer who will cut and run when the going gets tough. That kind of 'gravitas' or 'chutzpah' or intestinal fortitude comes entirely from within and doesn't depend upon how big, how strong, how fast you look.

At graduation time in Fort Benning, you could look at my graduating class and notice, yeah, there's a lot of tough-looking dudes about to be commissioned. And then you would see many physically unimpressive candidates about to be commissioned. But you could have counted upon all of us to give our best and fullest in combat.

World War II was a unique experience. There was a vast insatiable demand for men and officers in the Army. Casualties were high. The Army vetting process for commissioned officers couldn't be as selective as in peacetime. Direct commissioning of proven, combat-hardened sergeants like Sergeant Audie Murphy, were sure bets for competent officers. But in the U.S. Army's mind, a commissioned officer needs to be capable in BOTH peacetime and wartime.

[–] mike-2378 14 years ago

Watch Band of Brothers. Some LTs were completely useless. Read accounts of the time like Charles Macdonald who commanded a platoon as LT. Many were exactly like this macarthur chracters.

As the song goes, the uniform dont make you brave. Many a man who was a perfect soldier, was completely useless when actually in combat.

And a lot of the officers in WWII were 90 day wonders. Same with korea and vietnam. My Lai happened under a LT

[–] SipteaHighTea 14 years ago

In Vietnam, the US Army had a shake and bake program for young soldiers to become sergeants and the program lasted 60-90 days. I don't know whether the program was successful or not. However, I bet you some of the young NCOs couldn't cut it as a platoon sergeant or squad sergeant.

[–] Darknessviking 12 years ago

as far as this character goes it was a reason for him to be at the spot where the massacre was,thus avenging those dead soldiers in the end so we can feel "yeah!revenge!"

[–] movies789 9 years ago

You've just got to switch to decaf! Officers aren't gods - they're human beings, a representative slice of society at large. Especially in wartime, you get the full range: heroes, cowards, stalwarts, wimps, leaders, followers, gentlemen, jerks. The character in the movie could have existed, although his instantaneous character development from twit to tiger was a bit of a stretch. I knew a great many junior and senior NCOs and commissioned officers in Vietnam, and as alluded-to above, some were fabulous and some were horrible - with most somewhere in between.

-- former Sgt. E-5/USA (Infantry/11B40) and former 1LT/O-2/USAR (Infantry/11A, direct commission), 1st Cavalry Division, RVN, 69-70.

[–] joeparkson 8 years ago

I didn't find James McArthur's portrayal to be unrealistic at all. I'm old enough to have known a few WWII veterans. They told me some of the toughest, most physical active guys in basic training (probably ex high school athletes) wilted during actual combat. No one really knows how they'll act when they're under fire. Nothing in life prepares you for that. The character of Lt. Weaver is a bit of a cliche, but it's an old one based on truth. The coward who grows up in battle is the same story as "The Red Badge Of Courage".

Soy 'un hijo de la playa'

[–] jeffyoung1 8 years ago

Touche', sir. Appearances can and have been very deceiving. But it's in our human nature the world over to be easily deceived by appearances. It is reasonable to expect the tough, physical guys from high school to be the natural warrior leaders in combat. But there's no real test for character under combat fire is there?

I wasn't peeved at the actor, James McArthur himself. It was his second lieutenant character I disliked. Yes, I did admire that he gained his courage and bravery when it counted most and I should have given him more credit for that. I still would have liked to have seen him and the sergeant ambush the German patrol with grenades and submachinegun fire, causing a lot of casualties. Yeah, I know there were only two of them. Had there been six of them it would have worked.