MovieChat Forums > Akahige (1968) Discussion > sexism - a major flaw

sexism - a major flaw

posted 19 years ago by walkenandtalken
58 replies | jump to latest

kurosawa is aruably one of the best film directors. he made some great films.

however, in red beard, he uses female characters that are 'wacko' and dangerous.

one woman apparently seduced and killed three men, and is shown nearly seducing and killing
a 4th.

another woman marries one man, then abandons him, and marries a different man, and has a baby with him. then she commits suicide by pulling husband no. 1 into her body as she holds
a knife against her abdomen -- and therefore abandons husband no. 2, and her baby she had with him.

another woman is depicted as a sadist prositute manager who is trying to force a young girl into
prostitution.

and the young girl is depicted as 'wacko'.

another woman is depicted as somewhat irresponsible in watching over her sister, the 'wacko' seducer/killer, when she gets distracted by having an affair, and her 'wacko' sister gets loose.

i like this film, but the depiction of women seems to fit a negative stereotype. since kurosawa
was born and raised in a sexist society, one could expect that he would portray women in a sexist way, which he sometimes does.

i find it disappointing though. but humans are biased, and flawed.

[–] CastAFew 19 years ago

What do you suggest we do about it? I'm not about to dislike this movie based upon our modern perception of political correctness. Many older movies can seem offensive to us in one way or another. Try to appreciate the art and try to overlook the antiquated social viewpoints.

[–] walkenandtalken 19 years ago

most of it i like, but when it portrays negative stereotypes, i can't go with it.

it has nothing to do with generic PC views.

[–] CastAFew 19 years ago

Admittedly, Kurosawa is not known for very flattering portrayals of women, but does that mean we should be ashamed of enjoying his work? Two of the negative character portrayals you mentioned were superbly played. "The mantis" was played by Kyoko Kagawa. The scene where she seduces Dr. Yasumoto was one of the best 5 minutes in any Kurosawa film. The "madam" was played by Haruko Sugimura who was known for her villainous roles, and she always played them well.(See both actresses playing sisters in Ozu's "Tokyo Story"). I respect your views but if you are put off by negative stereotypes in film then you will be disappointed by many, many classics.

[–] mac_alain 19 years ago

The scene where she seduces Dr. Yasumoto was one of the best 5 minutes in any Kurosawa film.

Well, I drink to that.

Watch out for the moment when he cuts for the first time. Masterful

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] chameleonguy33 17 years ago

here, here!

[–] mac_alain 19 years ago

it has nothing to do with generic PC views.

On the contrary, I suggest that it, sadly, has *everything* to do with that. Also, it might be prudent to view the movie on an over all basis instead of homing in on individual characters. My 2 cts.

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] shoe24 19 years ago

I totally disagree with the original poster.

Many of these women were flawed because of Japanese society at the time not because Kurosawa was sexist.

The first woman you mention, "Mantis", would not be a killer of men if she was not raped numerous times. She was treated horribly and began to hate men. Kurosawa is saying it is society’s fault that it allowed women to be victimized like this and if it continued to happen these women would be pushed to far and respond with extreme results.

You forgot to include that the second woman you mentioned was being forced to marry someone she did not loved so she married another man and eventually left him out of shame for her happiness and because she felt guilty disobeying her parents. She then married and had a child with the man her family made her marry. She killed herself out of great shame, as was the custom of the time. Also when she decided to leave her first husband she did it when she thought he would think she was dead so he would think she never left him. With this woman, Kurosawa is again showing a problem with the society of the time.

The third woman, the prostitute boss, is just a shallow villain. Right after that scene we seen a bunch of men ready to fight for the same beliefs of the prostitute boss, so I would hardly say he is depicting women badly as much as he is depicting a certain aspect of humanity badly.

The fourth woman you mentioned is treated so horribly how could she not be a little off. She is once again a victim of cruelty. Her character is eventually cured and becomes much better and helps a small child to survive.

The fifth women was not having an affair, she was not even married. She was just with the man she loved. Yet you don't mention the father who threw his daughter, Mantis, into a hospital and never came to see her again.

You talk about bias yet you can't even look at the context of the situation to understand why the characters are this way.

Kurosawa had many psoitive women roles. In fact, in ‘Hidden Fortress’ the princess was a very strong, caring character (I have never seen I strong female like this in an action movie before this film was made). In ‘Rhapsody in August’ the main character is a woman even though her thoughts are representative of Kurosawa's.

[–] CastAFew 19 years ago

<<Kurosawa had many psoitive women roles.>>

"No Regrets for our Youth" is often cited as having his strongest female role though that was way back in the mid-40's. I think Kurosawa generally concentrated on telling stories about men and men's lives. Ain't nothin' wrong with that.

[–] christomacin (4529) 6 years ago

It's probably not a coincidence that "No Regrets for Our Youth" was one of the few scripts that Kurosawa himself did not pen, the other was "One Wonderful Sunday" (which also featured a positive and prominent female role).

[–] Dasein1 19 years ago

I'm in agreement with shoe24's post. The whole mood of the film is one of critical examination of individuals as molded by society. The people in kurosawas films are, generally, supposed to represent character types, standing in for a wide range of similar characters within the social sphere they inhabit. If they do not do that, then they are just characters, not incredibly important in themselves, that represent obstacles to the journey of the Hero. Moreover, The main plot, as well as a few subplots, draw out the theme of a persons being corrupted by society until a hero/mentor/friend reforms them with their practical humanitarianism. So, it stands to reason that many people are going to be portrayed negatively in this film, but it certainly does not follow that when a particular woman is portrayed negatively in the film kurosawa is somehow being sexist, for when he portrays women negatively, he is doing no more or no less than when he portrays certain men negatively. Kurosawa is never just commenting on an individual or a sex, he is almost always working on more levels than that. Indeed, by portraying the prostitute boss in such a negative light he is explicitly critisizing the prostititution. given that 1) this is something very often glossed over by people that like to romantisize japanese history, 2) enforced prostitution has a strange history in japan and for a while enjoyed quasi-moral status, and 3) Kurosawa's set is at pains to make it immediately clear that the scene takes place in a place of enforced prostitution, it is thus clear that kurosawa is forcing the audience to face a sexist aspect of history that is often brushed under the table. Also, as mentioned before, Kurosawa sometimes uses characters as 'types'. the crazy women trying to stab the doctor is not just an example of abandonment by her father and a victim of rape, but also a temptation/impediment in the moral-spiritual journey of the Doctor. Indeed, Kurosawa did much the same thing in Ran. The women that married one of the brothers (i forget which) turns out to be the classed seductress type, which Kurosawa USES as just something to serve as an impediment to the brothers journey (in this case she disrupts the family unity) (and there too, the women acted in that manner because the male-dominated war-like society destroyed HER family, so again Kurosawa traces the roots back to society). Given that the above is the norm in kurosawa movies, and given that Kurosawa is harsher on japanese culture than any other director i've encountered, one would be hard-pressed to think that Kurosawa uses women in sexist ways in his movies.

[–] squeemu 19 years ago

Yes, the woman in Ikiru is also a great character. She helps Watanabe come to his epiphany.

[–] kodave 17 years ago

Also don't forget Sanjuro. I can't think of the character's name now, but the lady and her daughter that Toshiro Mifune's character rescues delivered the central theme of the movie. I think to say that all women are portrayed negatively in Kurosawa's films is inaccurate. There are examples of woman characters showing many positive qualities like loyalty and wisdom. Granted Kurosawa's movies often dealt with male protaganists. Plus, many of his films are historical period pieces where there are rigid gender roles. But many of his female characters are just as complex with good/bad traits as any of his male characters. Which to me is more like the real world.

[–] simbob4000 17 years ago

I'm sorry walkenandtalken but your OP is so stupid it's almost laughable. I mean the statements you're making; at the most, make me think you haven't even seen this movie, and at the least lead me to beleave you can't put any of it into contexts.

walkenandtalken
one woman apparently seduced and killed three men, and is shown nearly seducing and killing a 4th.

Well this character your talking about...the Mantis, seems to be what we would now call a psychopathy. She plays on the emotions of her victoms to draw them in, so see can kill them; and in the movie she is used to show a fault in the main character. But I don't see how her being a killer equals sexism, many movies have male characters that kill, but people don't cry sexism there.

walkenandtalken
another woman marries one man, then abandons him, and marries a different man, and has a baby with him. then she commits suicide by pulling husband no. 1 into her body as she holds a knife against her abdomen -- and therefore abandons husband no. 2, and her baby she had with him.

I'm not seeing the sexism here. You're talking about a character with very conflicting emotions, on one hand she loves her first husband very much...on the other hand she feels obligated to the other man for helping her family. She takes her life as a sign of remorse for hurting the man she loved so much. This all plays into the Japanese views on death and suicide at the time, but I'm not going into that here.

Overall this stories is there because it mirrors what Yasumoto will have to do later in the film, by marrying the sister of the women he was once going to marry. Yasumoto, like the woman your talking about, has no feels for the woman he marries one way or the other.

walkenandtalken
another woman is depicted as a sadist prositute manager who is trying to force a young girl into prostitution.

Yes, god forbid a women be a villain in a movie; I mean it's not like women really did anything like this. In fact I don't think women are even capable of evil act...this character is pure unadulterated sexism. Lets also forget this character is used really to show the ugly parts of sosity...much like a few male characters are in this movie. And lets also forget that this sexest character seems to be running the brothel, and has men do her bidding.

walkenandtalken
and the young girl is depicted as 'wacko'.

The wacko young girl that has just lost her mother; the same mother that tells her she shouldn't trust anyone, and that all people are evil. She is then taken in by a woman, who I'm sure in this girls mind confirms everything her mother has told her, I mean she does beat her all the time, and she is trying to pimp her out.
But I don't see how the character is sexest.

walkenandtalken
another woman is depicted as somewhat irresponsible in watching over her sister, the 'wacko' seducer/killer, when she gets distracted by having an affair, and her 'wacko' sister gets loose.

How is this sexism? And your statement is all wrong, the Mantis gets out when the person watching her...who isn't her sister, forgets the key in the door. The affair, which isn't going on until the end of the movie, is when the Mantis kills herself. Also lets forget about the man who was with her, that says the fault is all his.

Shoe24
The first woman you mention, "Mantis", would not be a killer of men if she was not raped numerous times. She was treated horribly and began to hate men. Kurosawa is saying it is society’s fault that it allowed women to be victimized like this and if it continued to happen these women would be pushed to far and respond with extreme results.

Don't take this the wrong way, but maybe you should go back and watch the movie again (along with a lot of other people here), because Kurosawa isn't saying that at all. In fact the character Red Beard flat out states it's not society's fault that she is like that. Red Beard says something along the lines of, "I'm sure you heard her history, but that happens to many girls." Kurosawa is saying that the "Mantis" isn't a product of society, but was born the way she is. He is saying that many people experience horrible things in there life, the same things the Mantis has, but they don't kill.

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[–] ndc3 19 years ago

I disagree as well. As a previous poster mentioned, I felt the focus on "The Mantis" was on the various failings of the men in her life; how she was mistreated by all. This point is supported when Akahige repremands her father when he arrives after she attempts to hang herself.

I think you also ignore the strength women show in this film. For example, we understand very well that the young girl, in her brief life, has suffered through more than any other person at the clinic has endured or will endure. Yet in a relatively short amount of time, she is nursing Yasumoto back to health and saving a poor, destitute young boy from not only starvation but moral decay. I fail to see the stereotypes you simply explain as "wacko" with this character. She shows as much strength and moxy as Akahige, perhaps even more when one considers her youth and circumstance.

True, the geisha woman is depicted in a negative light, but so is the father (obviously a male) of "The Mantis", so is Yasumoto (a male) at the beginning (he is pompous and arrogant), so is the doctor Yasumoto is replacing (a male), who was so cold and callous that he did not appear to be touched by any of his experiences while at the clinic. You could even mention the rich man, who is guilty of one of the seven sins (gluttony).

Could I also not argue, using your logic, that Kurosawa was playing to the stereotypes that rich males are all fat and lazy because of his depiction of that character? Or perhaps that all young men who are entering the workforce lust after prestige and wealth above all else because of how he depicted Yasumoto? Or even that all older men are gruff, domineering, and emotionally distant from those around them because of how one might interpret the dialogue and mannerisms of his Akahige character?

In the end, it is your opinion, but your point crumbles after a thorough examination of the story and the characters.

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] counterrevolutionary 19 years ago

Why has no one mentioned the women of the clinic staff, who are among the most sympathetic characters in the film?

[–] desh79 18 years ago

Red Beard sexist? Far from it. The Mantis character is psychotic (or 'wacko', as you put it) because of the way she'd been treated by men, thus imploring a definite critique of patriarchal society on Kurosawa's behalf. Next you'll be telling us Mizoguchi's Life Of Oharu is sexist as well.

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] n_x 18 years ago

I absolutely ADORE this film, but you are right, sexism permeates throughout the whole movie, though i am a fan, i am not afraid to admit his faults and flaws, so to those hardcore fans, STOP DEFENDING HIM!!! you can't just simply overlook the sexism aspect of this and other Japanese--actually, Asian films in general. You can't just simply deny the long history of sexism that has existed in Japanese and other Asian societies, just because the director makes great movies.

[–] happinessonline 18 years ago

I am not a woman, therefore sexism in the movie didn't appear obvious to me.

However, in the case of this particular film, I think Kurosawa was doing his job as a director by depicting the situation of a particular moment of Japanese history as it was (not as we would like it to have been).

Let's look at at the different characters:

The pimp. Of course we cannot see her with sympathetic eyes. However, in the Edo area, this job was exclusively held by women. Kurosawa isn't going to make up a male pimp character if they didn't exist.

The madwoman. Kurosawa clearly explains that she was raped when she was a child. She's killing men, but she's a victim: the brutality of men has driven her mad.

The little girl (Otoyo) is the most touching character of the movie. Juts as Yasumoto, she evolves in the movie, opening herself up to other people. Absolutely nothing negative about her.

As for Osugi, the girl who is in charge of watching the madwoman and lets her escape because she is having an affair, Kurosawa doesn't take the madwoman father's side. Red beard scold him on his own carelessness (he never comes to visit his daughter).

The woman who marries a man, abandons him to marry another guy and then comes back to the first one to have him kill her. Another victim. She's not a subject, she undergoes the roughness of her times. Her suicide is her apology to her first husband.

The women working at the clinic show their nice side when they defend Otoyo against the pimp.

I think women in this movie have the same role than most of the male characters. They are shown as victims of a time. They are just trying to survive in a difficult world. therefore, they appear more as objects than subjects.

But lots of the characters change during the movie, thanks to Red Beard's influence. Yasumoto and Otoyo open up to other people's problems. The women of the clinic as well decide to accept Otoyo as one of them and shout in the well to have the little boy come back to life.

Sorry people, the more I think of it, the less I can this movie as sexist (much less sexist than the 7 samurais and other samurai movies in which women don't play any role at all - to the exception of spider web castle maybe).

[–] ndc3 18 years ago

norwegianwood, please be specific and support your argument, rather than offering generalities about the 'history of sexism' in Japanese and Asian societies. You are stating your opinion as a cold, hard fact that sexism is rampant in this movie, when there are those on this board who clearly disagree.

[–] mmo20001 18 years ago

Question: if a particular society (such as 19th-Century Japan)is systematically sexist, and a director (or author or playwright or any other type of artist) accurately portrays the sexism inherent within that society, then how does that make the director (or author or playwright) sexist? It seems that you are casting blame for a sexist society on the one who is portraying the society, instead of the society itself. This is analogous to blaming a newspaper for reporting that a government official is breaking the law, instead of blaming the government official itself ("killing the messanger").

[–] gmwhite 18 years ago

I agree with counterrevolutionary that we shouldn't overlook the female workers at the clinic. They added a lot to the movie in the way of humanity and humour.

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] stephentbailey 18 years ago

I agree with everything people have said in defense of Redbeard, but I'd like to add that the DVD copy I saw had an interview with Alex Cox who also claimed Redbeard was sexist. His argument was that it was a male fantasy because all the patients the doctors treated were female.

There's just one problem with this argument: it's complete rubbish. There's the obese official, the poisoned boy, the dying old man, various male patients you can see in the clinic... when the brothel owner comes to take the girl away, it isn't the men who protect her, it's the women. Would someone creating a male fantasy really have a "sisters doing it for themselves" scene?

Now Alex Cox isn't stupid, and I doubt he was deliberately lying, so I think something psychological was going on. I think some people actually want bigotry to exist, because it allows them the opportunity to condemn someone else, and to satisfy their egos by taking the moral high ground. There are others who seem to like a victim status because it enables them to be beyond criticism. This happens all the time, not just in the arts but also in real life - it happens in politics constantly. Of course accusations of prejudice are often justified, but when I hear an accusation I always pause to make sure it's fair.

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] stephentbailey 18 years ago

"And the men fought Toshiro Mifune's character, not the women"

My apologies if I wasn't being clear, but I wasn't referring to the punch-up, I was referring to the scene later on when the brothel owner comes to the clinic.

[–] 18 years ago

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[–] 18 years ago

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