MovieChat Forums > Zulu (1964) Discussion > Brits who defend British imperialism are...

Brits who defend British imperialism are much like hicks in America

posted 12 years ago by Archeoterrex
100 replies | jump to latest

The hicks in America are basically the same as brits who defend their own country's imperialism. Both are white, uneducated, have crap jobs, fiercely patriotic, conservative, never seen actual combat in their lives (chickenhaws). Their arguments are also corrupt and laced with logical fallacies mostly due to their lack of a formal education.

I suspect these people have little power in their own lives, so they grasp on to the power (or former power) their own country has and covets it as their own, that's why they support such atrocities.

[–] herbsuperb 12 years ago

British = Good
Zulu = Bad

See....in the eyes of a sane, rational and politically independent person, I probably sound just as stupid as you.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

You certainly sound stupid, you got that right, but no I am quite a bit smarter than you are child. :)

[–] herbsuperb 12 years ago

And with that you've broken a cardinal rule of anonymous internet arguing. Never talk about yourself, and certainly never compliment yourself because it is 100% unverifiable. The fact that you fell into that trap after one round of banter goes a long way toward proving that you are indeed a rank amateur.

Come up with a better argument and perhaps some 'facts' to back it up and perhaps we can exchange an honest debate of sorts, if not, we can continue doing this. Either way is fine because both can be fun, but please try to keep the name-calling to a minimum.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

Hahaha XD, you sure are butthurt! It's the least you deserve, the brits deserve worse, but I digress.

Angry white children never cease to amuse me. :)

[–] daz365 12 years ago

DOH! you fed the troll

"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence"
David Hume

[–] herbsuperb 12 years ago

I didn't see any signs posted. I'll feed what trolls I please thank you very much.

[–] daz365 12 years ago

And I will comment on it as I please thank you very much.

"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence"
David Hume

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

Translation: "I read something on the internet that made me butthurt, then I began to rage like a child because I fit his description of people like me perfectly!"

Lol you angry whites are so predictable. :) Lemme guess, you also think Obama's a socialist right? XD

[–] herbsuperb 12 years ago

Explain to us how the Battle of Rorke's drift, or the Anglo-Zulu war in general constitutes genocide.

Also, please note an example of the British Empire attempting to exterminate a group of people. Quite curious to see what you come up with on that.

Also, please note that I've not said they were NOT "Genocidal Murderers", nor have I said they are. I've not stated an opinion on the matter so you've no right to assume you know what my position is. Though it seems you've already done so, and quite unfairly.

By the by, this is not for my benefit, nor yours. It is for the benefit of any who might foolishly read these boards looking for actual information. So please enlighten them on the history of British genocide.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

*yawn* You sound like a Holocaust denier. Their activities in the Americas and Australia are definitely acts of genocide, but you know that already. I'm sure they would have loved to implement genocide in Africa, but they weren't able to annihilate the population use germs. And then comes the imperialist apologist response: "Spreading smallpox, measles and other infectious diseases wasn't intentional!!!!" Lol yeah ok. Stay in your own damn country.

Then of course there's apartheid which I'm sure you'll be all too eager to blame the Dutch for. The British are just as responsible for that as the Dutch settlers are. Seems like Europeans are good at justifying their actions by saying that other Europeans were doing the same thing so that makes it alright.

[–] herbsuperb 12 years ago

Thank you my friend. Actual information as opposed to unsupported slander. Your most recent post (aside from the first line...which hurts by the way :-() would have made a better original post. All that other nonsense is just pointless. For now I will leave the discussion to any others who may care to partake. Just trying to spread good IMDB habits. A fruitless effort I know, but it's all in good fun.

By the by, I do consider the virtual destruction of the American Indian to have been rife with genocidal acts. Truly regretable ones, but to try to completely discredit the British people as a whole with such broadstroke slanders as are found in your initial post, is simply irresponsible. I truly hope you would agree at least in principal.

Later.

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

Still, Herb, I wonder if the OP considers what the Spanish & Portuguese did & their descendants continue to do the Native Ibero-Americans to be as bad..for that matter does he consider what Native Americans did to OTHER weaker Native Americans to be 'genocide' or not...I can't ask the OP mind you---I already have him on ignore. Personally, I feel: Not as nice as the Canadians but not nearly as bad as the Iberians---but then again, I'm Asia Minor Greek & Armenian so all I can say is 'sometimes bad shyte happens in the world...'

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

"Seems like Europeans are good at justifying their actions by saying that other Europeans were doing the same thing so that makes it alright. "

Hehe, so stupid. :) THINK OF SOMETHING NEW FOR ONCE!

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

Only ONE side during the Anglo-Zulu war went around slaughtering everything in sight and it wasn't the British.

The Zulus didn't even spare camp cooks, child orderlies, pet dogs or horses. EVERYTHING came under the points of their spears.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

Lol so predictable. Here's what I wrote in another thread on this very same forum.

"British people like to rationalize all of the atrocities they have committed by saying that the people they were killing were evil, therefore they were doing a good thing. They also like to pretend that portions of Africa actually belonged to them. Haha. The nazis rationalized in much the same way when they were slaughtering jews. OH NO BUT KILLING JEWS IS WRONG BECAUSE THEY ARE WHITE!!! British people are funny and stupid. "

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

They also like to pretend that portions of Africa actually belonged to them.

At least the British gave it back and are no longer 'owning' the place.

Anybody who lives in the new world (including you)NEVER gave the land back to the indigenous peoples. You are, in fact, actually living on 'stolen' native land to this day.

Thief!

(LOL, to all my other 'new world' fellow posters..........I'm kidding).

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

There's still plenty of brit diaspora living in South Africa dum dumb. Sure, it's still mostly Dutch, but the brits are indeed there, and stubbornly clinging on to whatever power they have left in the country. If they were smart, they would leave.

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

There's still plenty of brit diaspora living in South Africa dum dumb. Sure, it's still mostly Dutch, but the brits are indeed there, and stubbornly clinging on to whatever power they have left in the country.

And they have every right to be there as you do in America.

The blacks mostly run South Africa now.

The 'British' certainly do not.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

Haha, you have no idea where I'm from. Sorry chump. :)

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

Hell, Buddy---the Zulus ruled an empire of about a half million subjects but killed between one & three million to get to that point. I dare say that anybody African who had the Zulus (during their expansionary heyday) as neighbors viewed them with a combination of unspeakable fear & undying hatred

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

Lol I don't believe they killed millions. Demonstrate a citation for that.

What we do know is that the British are responsible for killing the majority of the indigenous populations in the Americas and Australia. They also carried out atrocities in Africa and India. They are bloodthirsty barbarians.

[–] herbsuperb 12 years ago

Hilarious, you spout slanderous unsupported drivel all day long and then demand citation of facts from others.

Tell me one thing, why is it fair for you to disparage an entire nation of people, for things that some of their ancestors did generations ago. No deflections, no counter-questions, no accusations, no trying to justify bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior, just an answer.

I know your just playing troll, but please humor me.

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

What we do know is that the British are responsible for killing the majority of the indigenous populations in the Americas and Australia.

Disease was the reason why most NA natives died off. They couldn't handle European style diseases. It wasn't genocide. And in the USA the British didn't go beyond the Appalachians and even had a treaty with the native Americans to not encroach further. They certainly didn't wipe out the natives in Canada and the British certainly did not go into Mexico and Peru. That was the Spanish.

In Australia the British did not kill off the majority of Aboriginal Australians. In fact there are THREE TIMES as many Aboriginal Australians today than there were 250 years ago. The Tasmanians only numbered 6,000 to begin with and they took decades to die out, again mostly via disease. The last Tasmanian was given her own land and a yearly payment which was quite high for those days.

They also carried out atrocities in Africa and India.

Africans and Indians carried out atrocities in Africa and India. That's the human race for ya. The Romans, Vikings and Normans etc carried out atrocities in 'Britain'.

That's what humans do. It's not and has never been unique to 'the British'.

They are bloodthirsty barbarians.

Is that why they ENDED the trans-Atlantic slave trade? Is that why almost all of their ex colonies decided to remain closely tied to them in the Commonwealth?

[–] ronfirv 12 years ago

Good points ; well answered. This 'newonic' poster has a gargantuan chip on the shoulder and invariably such types have closed minds.
Good point about the Commonwealth nations - worth noting South Africa, with a majority ANC Govt., re-joined some years ago and other African nations not British colonies previously, have also joined, rather than continue their closer links with their former colonial overlords, such as Mocambique and Rwanda.

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

Yes very true. Non ex British colonies have joined the Commonwealth and others want to such as Algeria.

I don't know of an ex Nazi Commonwealth or an ex Spanish Commonwealth.

The French have the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie but it's not on the same level as the Commonwealth.

If the British were so bad then you'd think not a damn one of these ex British colonies would ever want anything to do with Britain ever again.

With regards to Africa some folks don't even know that Bechuanaland (present day Botswana), to name an example, only ever became 'British' because local chiefs actually PLEADED with the British to protect them from encroaching and warring African neighbours and the Boers and asked the British for help. It became the Bechuanaland Protectorate. Not many people know that.

[–] ronfirv 12 years ago

Yes, you are also right.
I lived & worked in Sierra Leone for many months in the 80's, and many of the citizens, older or middle-aged admittedly, said their lives were better under British rule, roads better maintained, very little corruption, disciplined Police Force, no oil or fuel or food shortages, and rule of law. Not the case back then.
I was out in HKG during the Handover in 1997 and a few Chinese also remarked that many in Communist China said they (in HKG) were exploited, but if so, to quote them all, then if this were exploitation, they were for exploitation! We all lived well in HKG,very many Chinese included of course, the very people who made the then colony the Asian miracle it became and the thriving region it remains I am relieved to note.
In general terms, we left our colonies as friends, as Azikiwe in Nigeria testified. All of this is a matter of record, but as I wrote earlier, totally pointless attempting any form of sensible debate with a prejudiced, hate-filled closed mind.

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

All of this is a matter of record, but as I wrote earlier, totally pointless attempting any form of sensible debate with a prejudiced, hate-filled closed mind.

True.

Even the small pox infected blanket mythos has grown and grown. In reality there was only one such example and this was while the British were isolated and cut off by warring native Americans who were trying to kill them. The native Americans there most likely contacted the small pox via mutilation (scalping etc) of the British soldiers who already had the disease. The British garrison was already infected with it and it's not as if the Native Americans in question were innocent bystanders. They were trying to massacre the British.

It was not a widespread practice carried out on peaceful Native Americans.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

Oh man you're so predictable. I already responded to your apologetic several days ago because I knew you would pull it out. You were just too stupid to even read it. Here ya go dummy. :)

"I'm sure they would have loved to implement genocide in Africa, but they weren't able to annihilate the population using germs. And then comes the imperialist apologist response: "Spreading smallpox, measles and other infectious diseases wasn't intentional!!!!" Lol yeah ok. Stay in your own damn country. "

You're so frigging predictable, think of new arguments *beep* :)

[–] bob-1135 10 years ago

I'm sorry does your mummy know you are using the computer? I would suggest you go and educate yourself but that is obviously far out of your reach.

I think it would be best though if you really did stop spouting such racist rubbish until you grow up a bit and then can see for yourself what a lot of tosh you are foisting on us.

[–] ronfirv 10 years ago

Good and appropriate reply, bob-1135.

[–] Hotrodder 12 years ago

Certainly the Shona still hate the Matabele/Ndebele (who were an offshoot of the Zulus) who had treated the Shona abominably in the past. Robert Mugabe- a Shona- has committed numerous atricities against the Matabele/Ndebele.

"Oh dear. How sad. Never mind!"

[–] 12 years ago

[deleted]

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

Hell, Buddy---the Zulus ruled an empire of about a half million subjects but killed between one & three million to get to that point. I dare say that anybody African who had the Zulus (during their expansionary heyday) as neighbors viewed them with a combination of unspeakable fear & undying hatred

Too true. That's why they sided with the British for the most part. The Natal Native Contingent, which fought alongside the British against the Zulus, were volunteers after all.

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

And smart men they were...who'd want to end up 'shivved in the gizzard'?

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

And smart men they were...who'd want to end up 'shivved in the gizzard'?

Not I, sir!

The blacks in NNC were also paid better than the British redcoats in the army.

Go figure.

[–] herbsuperb 12 years ago

Lol. Just read back a bit on this hilarious exchange and found that our friend Newonic seems to believe that simply because he anticipated a line of argument would be used that somehow it is invalid. More often than not it is good arguments that are used over and over, especially regarding things that happened centuries ago. That is for the simple reason that they are good arguments. What "new arguments" are you expecting on an IMDB board. Dumbass. Stop thinking backwards and maybe you'll get somewhere.

You are not going to convince anyone with your age old arguments, and we are not going to convince you with ours. So go do something else for awhile. Granted I'm probably wasting my time for the same reasons you are wasting yours. You obviously enjoy the joust. In that sense I've little right to criticize. I just found it funny that you try to invalidate an argument simply because it's been made before. Normal people don't do that. A decent and fair-minded person would say something like "True, however.....". Get it.

Your debate skills are exceedingly poor. Guess that's why you debate here.

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

Lol. Just read back a bit on this hilarious exchange and found that our friend Newonic seems to believe that simply because he anticipated a line of argument would be used that somehow it is invalid. More often than not it is good arguments that are used over and over,

Yeah his logic is crazy.

Its like asking somebody "what is 2 plus 2?" and then when the answer is "4", saying "ah I knew you'd say that".

Crazy logic.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

Lol you two aren't bright are you? It's not just the fact that I predicted you would make those terrible, and predictable arguments that apologists always rehash, I already refuted them and pointed out the absurdity of them. Grow a brain, k? :)

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

Buddy, don't respond to the OP; put the ignoramus on 'ignore'.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

So says the ignoramus who keeps posting in this topic lol.

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

Good suggestion. He doesn't refute any points anyway. All he says is "I knew you'd say that". Hardly a riposte.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

I refuted the points before you even made them child. For me to address them twice would be wasting my time on a fool who doesn't know how to read.

[–] herbsuperb 12 years ago

You refuted nothing. What you do is more of retort. I read a few of your other posts. My God you are hateful. I really hope you are not like that in life. Quips and needless insults in almost everything you say. Any reason for that?

Anyway, you still never answered my query from long ago. How is it fair for you to cherry pick events from history and use it as an excuse to blindly disparage an entire nation of people. Are all German people bad because of the Nazi's that launched the most destructive war in history. Are all Japanese people bad because of the soldiers that committed horrifying atrocities across East Asia and the Pacific? Are all Black people evil because of the Hutu extremists who butchered almost a million people in less than 3 months using bats, clubs and machetes? These are not rhetorical questions. I'd actually like an answer this time. Just for fun, try to do it without some kind of snide inflection. It can be done believe it or not. Normal folk do it all the time.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

I can't answer that question because I never did what you accused me of doing. My topic is directed only towards a specific group of brits, not all brits. If you want to know which group of brits my topic was directed to, JUST READ THE TITLE OF THE GOD DAMN TOPIC.

Like I said, you don't know how to read.

[–] herbsuperb 12 years ago

All throughout your ravings, 'The Brits' did this, 'The Brits' did that. 'The Brits' are genocidal such and such. Never heard you say one decent thing about the British people in general to know that you are only slandering some and not all. Like I said, hateful. Sadly it's your right to be that way. Not much I can do but point it out and tell you that if less people were like that, the world would be a better place. You're just as bad as those brits who committed all those atrocities you speak of. Can you honestly say that if you were a 3'rd party reading your posts that you would not think yourself and Anglo-hating jackass.

There are civilized ways of having an honest discussion about the merits and failings of the British colonial period. You clearly don't know what they are, and simply want to express your hatred. Several times I've attempted to appeal to your better nature in order to convince you that you don't need to insult, and slander, and make a complete ass of yourself. I try to do that with most like you I've come across, but unlike some I know now that you have no better nature, and will leave it at that. Enjoy being a douchebag.

Like most rational people I will simply say that while some horrible things were done, in many cases the world was made better through British Colonialism. So now take stock of the exchange and rationalize yourself a victory. But please understand that it means very little in the grand scheme of things, VERY little.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

The brits DID do this, and the brits DID do that. Not once was I talking about the british people though. When people complain about the American invasion of Iraq, were they talking about the American people invading Iraq? No. Grow a brain you imbecile.

I have a right to be angry about what they did. They raped, killed, and conquered. You know what your country did, so you need to be tolerant of my anger, and anyone else's anger because we have a right to be angry at what your terrible country did. Insulting, and slandering is the least of what your bloodthirsty country deserves. You, brit boy, have a responsibility to condemn what your country has done, and not rationalize and try to make excuses that mitigate their crimes. No, instead you're going to say that the world is better through British Colonialism. I'm sure the Germans and Japanese would be saying the same thing if they won World War 2.

Seems like your last statement fits you like a glove. It's Britain that is nothing more than a piddly little insect now.

[–] herbsuperb 12 years ago

The British did not rape, kill or conquer you, or anybody you know. Nothing can be done now to change any of it. I have no idea what you are trying to accomplish with your hate-mongering. I'm not British, I have no British blood, nor heritage (to my knowledge). To assume I am shows your arrogance, which is a common thread I've seen in others who use your methods of argument.

If the Germans/Japanese did win the second world war they'd be wrong to say that, but the situations are completely different. If you don't see that, I can't help you. You live in a world of hatred that nobody can snap you out of. It's pathetic. Live YOUR life, not somebody elses that died at the hands of the British generations ago. Let go of this childish, one-sided grudge you've developed and look to the future, not the past. Hopefully years from now you'll understand how useless it is to hate for now reason. For now, why do you insist on hurling insults with every breath you take.

The thing is that most people probably agree with you (that the British government committed colonial attrocities, which did happen), but are perfectly willing to let the past be the past. I don't see the British government conquering, oppressing, exterminating, or enslaving anyone TODAY. Your keeping old hatreds alive is not going to do anybody any good. So why do it? I, nor anybody else reading I'm sure, is clear on what your goal is here, beyond the obvious. What are you trying to change, if anything? The British people are proud of their heritage in spite of the things you've spoken of, and have every right to be. Do you really think that is going to change?

[–] ronfirv 12 years ago

Wasting your time herbsuperb - every time you respond you give this person yet another excuse to spew his brand of bile and hatred, and it's spoiling this board.
He can't debate, just rants and gives vent to his dated prejudice and hatred.
I am a Brit, a proud one at that, and will apologise for nothing. We have made mistakes, like all nations, but in general, the world is a far better place for my country and USA having contributed in so many spheres. This man's hatred is water off a duck's back to me, he's only one of millions living in the past. Leave him to his hate. I refuse to be drawn into any exchange with him and putting him on Ignore now. May I suggest you consider likewise?

[–] herbsuperb 12 years ago

The masochist in me makes me try to change those beyond help. Fruitless I know, but like him I enjoy the joust. Like I always say after a good IMDB dustup, "It's all in good fun". Whether he feels the same, we'll never truly know due to the anonymity aforded by our friend, the Internet.

As a Brit you have every right to be proud of your nations history. I respect few more. I'm an American myself, and of course we yanks have some shameful things in our past. The virtual destruction of the American Indian, the treatment of minorities (most notably black slaves of course), and the treatment of the soldiers returning from Southeast Asia are the ones I feel are the most regretable. Even though I had nothing to do with any of them. But on the whole I think the USA has done FAR more good than harm in this crazy world we live in.

Cheers.

[–] ronfirv 12 years ago

I concur.

(Yes, you're a masochist of sorts I guess - to him, fun it is not. That's the crucial difference between you). Btw, other nations also have their dirty linen but it's better hidden.
Let's just sit back now and toast the special relationship. Cheers indeed!

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

OH! So it has to be someone I know for it to matter? Were dropped on your head as a child, or are you just retarded? I don't care if you are british or not, you're a british apologist, so it makes no difference.

"If the Germans/Japanese did win the second world war they'd be wrong to say that, but the situations are completely different. "

You just proved you are a biased bozo with that. Let go of your biased, childish, one-sided apology. You are digging a grave for yourself here.

[–] herbsuperb 12 years ago

You're really going to liken the motives of the German and Japanese rulers before and during WW2 to the British rulers who established thriving colonies throughout the world for centuries which enhanced trade, cultural exchange, infrastructure development, education, exploration, technological developement and had countless other benefits. Your hatred must run deep. What did they do to you? Oh...like you said....nothing. Once again I'll ask. What is your goal here? What are you trying to accomplish that is going to improve anything? What do you want to see change?

Just out of curiosity, whom else do you hate which such baseless vigor besides the British? It may give some clues as to why you are as the way you are, which frankly, isn't good. I know you don't realize that, and probably think you are doing the world some good with all this nonsense. What good is that exactly? And for once, try answering without insults. A baby-step I know, but a good step to take.

For the reader's benefit, I've seen this sort of mentality before, as I'm sure most of you have. In developing countries in Latin America and Africa it's very common. Uneducated people who are very quick to adopt a lifelong hatred based on the rantings of a few very loud and misguided people like our friend Newonic. One-sided grudges with no real purpose other than to give people something to fight against no matter how useless it really is. It's a sad thing to see, but they see it as normal, as if there were no other way to live. I tend to think that the prevalence of such mentality is the reason why these places never seem to advance and in fact are getting worse. They have nothing to do but hate and fight against other people that they feel have committed some mortal sin against them when in reality the origins of that hatred are generations if not centuries old. The hateful rantings of a few eloquent individuals can turn an entire nation of more or less passive and peaceful people into absolute and remorseless butchers. My point is if you're going to hate somebody with the vigor displayed here, have a VERY good reason for it.

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

Newonic is speaking in English in a great first world country called the USA.

He is welcome to thank the British for his current lifestyle. The founding fathers of the USA were British influenced.

If it wasn't for the British he'd be living in a third world catholic basket case country speaking Spanish or living in a country akin to Quebec.

The British Empire was the most benign major empire ever. It actually did far more good than harm.

FACT.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

Oh you're such an apologist, and not a very bright one. :) I mean honestly, you're going to try and say that what the brits did was any better than what the Japanese and Germans did? Sorry, YOU ARE JUST AS BAD AS THEY ARE. The only reason why you don't believe so is because you're a biased bozo like I told you.

You suffer from a condition called cultural bias. The countries that win wars, write the history books. It's as simple as that. You will always demonize your enemies, while glorifying yourselves. The fact that you don't realize that, proves you are an ignoramus.

As for your little psychology diatribe, it seems pretty clear that you are the one with pent up issues. You are resentful towards those who point out the reality of the situation and then you rage about it. You should really get some help for your anger problems.

[–] herbsuperb 12 years ago

Yes...the British were, and are better than the Nazis. On that point there is no honest debate.

200 years ago the British were my country's mortal enemy. Do I demonize them, no. I understand their point of view. I'm glad my country won it's independence, but the British and Americans have become close friends and strong allies since, so forgiveness is in order.

I suffer from nothing. Cultural bias is not necessarily a bad thing. When evil is done, you acknowledge it, but you needn't hate the descendants of those who perpetrated it.

I am not raging, I've been as calm as anybody should be when discussing anything with you. Though in plain text that is hard to know for sure. I probably think you are 'raging' more than you really are.

And by the way, you've still not answered the questions from my previous post. Please do so before hurling more insults and diatribe. I'm civil enough to answer your questions. One more time, what are you hoping to accomplish by being an ass all the time? Nobody is going to convinced of anything you have to say when you approach it the way you are. What do you want to see happen? And don't give me that 'I already said it' line. You may live on these boards but I don't. Just say it in plain English. Nobody is going to convinced of anything you have to say when you approach it the way you are.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

Nope, they were just as bad as the Nazis, if not worse. You're simply suffering from cultural bias.

I don't care where you're from and I don't care how you feel about them. You're an apologist, I think we already established that.

You are raging, that's why you came to this topic and went on a bitch rant about how you don't like what I'm saying about the brits and those who defend imperialism. You're the one who is quite upset. You do need help because you don't realize how angry you are. That's why you are sick. The fact that you even defend genocidal murderers is sick enough, you have issues which exacerbate even that.

As for your idiotic question, I'm simply here to tell the truth. That's it. The brits were no better than the germans or japanese, and those who defend their actions are basically identical to the hicks of america who defend american imperialism. Whether you are convinced or not is irrelevant. The truth is the truth whether you like it or not. Cope.

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

Nope, they were just as bad as the Nazis, if not worse.

The British never tried to deliberately and systematically wipe out an entire race of people.

The brits were no better than the germans or japanese,

Um the British ended the trans Atlantic slave trade, put an end to Arab slavery on the coasts when they colonised east Africa (Zanzibar was a major Arab slave trading port before the British got there), tried to end the caste system and bride burning practices in India, made the Proclamation of 1763 agreement with the Native Americans to not encroach over the Appalachians and mostly gained their colonies through trade and treaties rather than war.

The fact that almost all of Britain's independent ex colonies chose of their own free will to remain closely tied to Britain speaks volumes.

India is one big country with a centralised governing system, the worlds largest democracy, the railways are it's lifeblood, English is the most widely understood language there and the people adore cricket....all thanks to the British.

Now tell me things that the Nazis and Japanese did to their 'colonies' and occupied territories which were of similar benefit.

[–] ronfirv 12 years ago

Thanks for saying that BuddyLove63 as it needed saying.
I will repeat - hail to the special relationship between my country and the USA.
All the forces of badness in this world can not break us asunder.

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

Thanks for saying that BuddyLove63 as it needed saying.
I will repeat - hail to the special relationship between my country and the USA.

As I said, Americans I know are happy that it was the British were who the most major influence on their country and are glad the USA is not akin to Mexico or Quebec.................which it would have been if not for the British. Just look at the rest of the 'non British New World' and spot the difference.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

LMAO. I love how you said "FACT." at the end. That made me burst out laughing. Not with you, at you. :)

[–] DD-931 12 years ago

And everyone else is laughing at you. Note, Newonic, how not a single poster has come on this thread to agree with you.

One question: if in your paranoia you believe everyone else is buying into a biased version of history, how can you possibly know the version of history YOU are buying into isn't biased?

How can you KNOW you are right and everybody else is wrong? What proof do you have?

[–] Squeeth2 12 years ago

Are you mad? Aren't there any Americans of Irish extraction near you? No black Americans descended from the Africans whose slave labour built America?? The British empire made the C20th and C21st Johnny-come-latelys like Hitler, Stalin and Bush look like a birthday present.

Anyway, the Founding Fathers were the British winners* of a British civil war, hence America starting as a good idea then getting a bit out of hand. (biggrin)

*It's not often that I put 'British' and 'winner' in the same sentence....

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

Aren't there any Americans of Irish extraction near you?

There certainly are near me in England. In fact I am of part Irish extraction myself. My Irish great grandfather came to England (at the height of the Empire) for a better life. He got it and didn't find the English to be worse than the Nazis or Japanese of the WW2 era.

[–] ronfirv 12 years ago

Buddylove, and a few others, please, please cease engaging this newonic hate figure - he hasn't the capacity to debate, only rant. Can't you see he delights in each and every response? Any but any excuse to denigrate we Brits and you are feeding his bottomless pit of hatred!!
As Lady Thatcher once said, of a Leftie politician, "he's not so much a chip of the old block, as a block of the old chip"!
Apart from above, these rants are demeaning this board about an outstanding film, with a worthy and much respected, yes, respected opponent, the Zulu nation.
The newonics of this world will not have the intellectual capacity to grasp this but a Zulu possibly would and swat him and his narrow, bigoted views like swatting a mosquito from a wall!

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

Buddylove, and a few others, please, please cease engaging this newonic hate figure

Well I was responding to you and Squeeth most recently.

[–] Squeeth2 12 years ago

Did he emigrate in the 1840s?

Of course if he wasn't one of those who were starved to death he didn't really know what it was like did he.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2012/apr/18/colonial-papers-ugly-leg acy-empire

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

[–] DD-931 12 years ago

No, Squeeth, I'm not mad. A little miffed, maybe, but not mad.

How 'bout you?

[–] Squeeth2 12 years ago

A bit grumpy. (biggrin)

Histories of the Hanged: Britain's Dirty War in Kenya and the End of Empire: Testimonies from the Mau Mau Rebellion in Kenya by David Anderson.

Slavery, Atlantic Trade and the British Economy, 1660-1800 by Kenneth Morgan.

Imperial Endgame: Britain's Dirty Wars and the End of Empire by Benjamin Grob-Fitzgibbon.

The Black and Tans: British Police and Auxiliaries in the Irish War of Independence, 1920-1921 by D. M. Leeson.

Unpeople: Britain's Secret Human Rights Abuses by Mark Curtis.

Mau Mau: An African Crucible by Robert B. Edgerton.

Understanding the British Empire by Ronald Hyam.

The Blood Never Dried: A People's History of the British Empire by John Newsinger.

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

A bit grumpy. (biggrin)

Histories of the Hanged: Britain's Dirty War in Kenya and the End of Empire: Testimonies from the Mau Mau Rebellion in Kenya by David Anderson.

Slavery, Atlantic Trade and the British Economy, 1660-1800 by Kenneth Morgan.

Imperial Endgame: Britain's Dirty Wars and the End of Empire by Benjamin Grob-Fitzgibbon.

The Black and Tans: British Police and Auxiliaries in the Irish War of Independence, 1920-1921 by D. M. Leeson.

Unpeople: Britain's Secret Human Rights Abuses by Mark Curtis.

Mau Mau: An African Crucible by Robert B. Edgerton.

Understanding the British Empire by Ronald Hyam.

The Blood Never Dried: A People's History of the British Empire by John Newsinger.

I see the Mau Mau rebellion gets TWO mentions there and I see the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade example only goes up to 1800.

What happened after 1800? That's right, the British ENDED the slave trade and the Royal Navy patrolled the Atlantic Ocean intercepting any ships they could find who were still engaging in the slave trade.

When Britain colonised East Africa they also put a stop to the Arab slave trade in their areas which had been rife for 1,000 years previously.

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

Did he emigrate in the 1840s?

No but lots of others did emigrate during that time................to England and were not treated like how the Nazis treated Jews.

They didn't all migrate to America, contrary to the myth.

For feck sake, the Paddies were practically given the city of Liverpool in the 1840s. By 1851 around 1/4 of 'Liverpudlians' were Irish born. And those were just the Irish that stopped in Liverpool. Many more thousands spread all over England.

Of course if he wasn't one of those who were starved to death

Only the Irish can manage to starve to death in a country surrounded by the bounties of the ocean. LOL.

But seriously (all joking aside) the potato famine was Europe wide and it wasn't deliberate systematic genocide designed to wipe out the whole Irish peoples.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

>>>>>>The British never tried to deliberately and systematically wipe out an entire race of people.

That's questionable, especially when you read about Australia's history and what they did there. There was also the White Australia policy. Like I told you, history books are written by those who won wars. I'm sure that if the Nazis won WW2, there wouldn't be any evidence that they deliberately tried to exterminate the Jews.

The rest of your post is just a lot of apologetic nonsense to help rationalize what the brits did. Both the Germans and Japanese did a lot of great things as well, I could list them for you but you're a fool and it would be a waste of my time explaining them. In fact if they won, they would be bragging about how they brought their language and culture to other countries and boast like you're boasting about how great India speaks English and plays cricket. Are you honestly this f$&king stupid?

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

I need proof that killing and raping people is wrong? I knew you were dumb, but your last post takes the cake!

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

"As Lady Thatcher once said, of a Leftie politician"

Thank you for proving the title of this topic. :) You fell right into it, and you're so dumb you don't even realize it. Lol.

[–] Squeeth2 12 years ago

A swift trawl through Amazon's book list isn't a thesis and you seem to have overlooked the book on the Einsatzgruppen in Ireland. Your dad isn't a prod by any chance?

Note that the British didn't suppress the east African slave trade, they looked the other way until the 1880's then invented a local form of indentured servitude. Ending the slave trade didn't preclude colonising the countries slaves were stolen from, which amounted to enslaving the territory rather than individual victims. Enforcing the end of other countries' slave trades was the enforcement of a level playing field so that the ex-slavers who were compensated for their crime (the victims got nothing) didn't have a competitive disadvantage. The anti-savery patrols were a subsidy for the benefit of caribbean traders not a humanitarian gesture.

Any comments on 'the most benign empire in world history'?

The last days of slavery: England and the East African slave trade, 1870-1900 by Peter Collister.

Servitude in Modern Times by M. L. Bush.

The Imperial Controversy: Challenging the Empire Apologists by Andrew Murray.

Colonial Justice in British India: White Violence and the Rule of Law by Elizabeth Kolsky.

A Very British Killing by A. T. Williams.

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

Your dad isn't a prod by any chance?

My great grandfather was a Catholic from Cork.

A swift trawl through Amazon's book list isn't a thesis and you seem to have overlooked the book on the Einsatzgruppen in Ireland. Your dad isn't a prod by any chance?

Any book attempting to correlate the British in Ireland to Nazi Einsatzgruppen in the east is not worthy of even commenting on.

That is an insult to the people who suffered under the Nazi Einsatzgruppen.

Over 1 million people in Ireland were deliberately murdered by British "Einsatzgruppen" were they? LOL. Biggest laugh I have ever heard.

If the British treated the Irish like the Nazis treated Jews then the British would never have let so many Irish people into England to settle. The Irish were practically GIVEN English cities like Liverpool.

As I said, already by 1851 around 1/4 of all Liverpudlians were Irish. That just grew and grew over the years. Not just in Liverpool but in many other places all over England. The Irish were practically everywhere in England and other places in Britain by the late 19th century.

Note that the British didn't suppress the east African slave trade, they looked the other way until the 1880's

The Royal Navy actually did much to suppress the trans Indian Ocean slave trade. However the fact is that the British were largely not even deep inland in east Africa until the late 19th century, nevermind having the means to suppress it inland.

But they did stop much of the ocean based slave trade for sure. It was the British who ended Zanzibar's days as an Arab slave trading port.

The fact is that when the British colonised east Africa the Arab slave trade ended in their areas of colonisation.

then invented a local form of indentured servitude.

You mean like what much of the world had at the time?

Indentured servitude gave people food, clothing, accommodation etc in return for their labour.

Hey just like what happened with many white people in Britain. Right? Ever heard of workhouses in England?

Ending the slave trade didn't preclude colonising the countries slaves were stolen from, which amounted to enslaving the territory rather than individual victims.

Bullcrap. Much was put back and the British 'left' their colonies with decent infrastructures and sound footings for their futures. They didn't leave them as dust bowl waste lands. It wasn't take take take.

Enforcing the end of other countries' slave trades was the enforcement of a level playing field so that the ex-slavers who were compensated for their crime (the victims got nothing) didn't have a competitive disadvantage. The anti-savery patrols were a subsidy for the benefit of caribbean traders not a humanitarian gesture.

Again, bullcrap.

The whole abolition of slavery question BEGAN and was CARRIED THROUGH due the Age of Enlightenment and increasing HUMANITARIAN concerns.

Maybe you think Sir William Wilberforce was an English fraud?

Geez, where the heck do you buy your history books from? You do know that anybody can claim anything in a book and claim it as fact right?

Anyone can cite books.

Popular Politics and British Anti-Slavery: The Mobilisation of Public Opinion against the Slave Trade, 1787-1807 by John Oldfield (Frank Cass Publishers, 1998).

The Overthrow of Colonial Slavery, 1776-1848 by Robin Blackburn (Verso Books, 1989)

Bury the Chains: The British Struggle to Abolish Slavery by Adam Hochschild (Pan, 2006)

England, Slaves and Freedom 1776-1838 by James Walvin (Univ Pr of Mississippi, 1987)

Etc etc.

Nobody said the British Empire didn't do bad/wrong things. That's humanity in general. Hardly any country or race of people are pure and whiter than white. But the British Empire for sure was the most begin major Empire in world history and it did more good than bad.

That is why we have a COMMONWEALTH. If the British Empire was akin to Nazi Germany or Soviet Union under Stalin then none of these ex colonies would have wanted anything to do with Britain ever again once they gained their independence.

Is there a Nazi Games taking place in 2 years time?

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

Buddy, apparently the other poster doesn't know that the 'Arab Slave Trade' has been ongoing & continues to this day...but I'm sure he wouldn't want to say anything 'unkind' about 'people of color'...

[–] Squeeth2 12 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Potato_Failure

~~~~~But seriously (all joking aside) the potato famine was Europe wide and it wasn't deliberate systematic genocide designed to wipe out the whole Irish peoples.~~~~~

Turning Ireland into a colonial commodity producer made it more susceptible when the potato blight struck. That wouldn't have been so bad if food exports had been banned as in earlier famines like 1782-1783. Food for two million people was extracted from Ireland during the famine.

"Cecil Woodham-Smith, an authority on the Irish Famine, wrote in The Great Hunger; Ireland 1845–1849 that no issue has provoked so much anger and embittered relations between England and Ireland as "the indisputable fact that huge quantities of food were exported from Ireland to England throughout the period when the people of Ireland were dying of starvation." Ireland remained a net exporter of food throughout most of the five-year famine.[fn 4]

Christine Kinealy writes that Irish exports of calves, livestock (except pigs), bacon and ham actually increased during the famine. The food was shipped under guard from the most famine-stricken parts of Ireland. However, the poor had no money to buy food and the government then did not ban exports."

This reads like a description of the Generalgouvernment 1942-43 doesn't it?

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

[–] DD-931 12 years ago

Very sloppy attempt to avoid the actual question by completely and willfully misinterpreting it. And you don't even appear to know who you're talking to anymore. You are indeed not worth the effort to engage in conversation with.

Keep avoiding the actual question, though. Don't want to get too close to reality, do you?

Buh bye.

[–] Squeeth2 12 years ago

Have you been drinking*? The Einsatzgruppen were the Auxies and the Tans as you should know (unless you're reduced to misrepresentation). Do you want to reduce about 1 million famine deaths and 1 million emigres to a gift of Liverpool to the Irish people?

~~~~~You mean like what much of the world had at the time?~~~~~

Other wrongs make a right?

~~~~~Indentured servitude gave people food, clothing, accommodation etc in return for their labour.~~~~~

What appalling apologetics, you'll be thanking Himmler for a striped jacket next.

~~~~~the British Empire for sure was the most begin major Empire in world history and it did more good than bad.~~~~~

Empires have generic feratures which is why they are called empires, the main one is unfreedom of the many for the profit of the few. This is not benign it is gangsterism.

*If not, why not?
Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

Buddy, apparently the other poster doesn't know that the 'Arab Slave Trade' has been ongoing & continues to this day...but I'm sure he wouldn't want to say anything 'unkind' about 'people of color'...

Yes. Some misguided idiots seem to think the 'white' British invented slavery and were the biggest culprits. In fact the British were behind the Arabs, the Spanish and the Portuguese. More black Africans were transported to North Africa/Middle East and South America than to the British colonies.

The other vital fact is that the Europeans who engaged in the slave trade couldn't even have done it without the co-operation of black Africans. Black Africans were as complicit in the trans Atlantic slave trade as white Europeans. The white Europeans just turned up on the coast in their ships to take the blacks away. It was actually black Africans who went inland to round up their fellow blacks, transport them to the coast and then sell them to white Europeans.

The role that black Africans played in the trans Atlantic slave trade is almost ignored and glossed over.

[–] nickm2 12 years ago

The Africans used to sell their POWs taken during their intertribal wars as prisoners to various European Groups in exchange for money and/weapons; I learned this watching a News Expose show in the US (60 minutes) that was interviewing a British Diplomat who became an honorary tribal chief in Ghana after he retired.

[–] Squeeth2 12 years ago

British slave trading ran the Arab trade a close second in 1/4 of the time. This isn't something to be proud of, it's like boasting that you can crap your pants faster than your rival.

http://ij-poli-blog.blogspot.co.uk/

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

Actually I'm the one who made the original point that British imperialism was immoral because they raped and killed people. So if you rebutted a different point then actually it was you who was arguing a strawman. Sorry, nice try dumbass. :)

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

>>>>>>Yes. Some misguided idiots seem to think the 'white' British invented slavery and were the biggest culprits. In fact the British were behind the Arabs, the Spanish and the Portuguese. More black Africans were transported to North Africa/Middle East and South America than to the British colonies.

>>>>>>Buddy, apparently the other poster doesn't know that the 'Arab Slave Trade' has been ongoing & continues to this day...but I'm sure he wouldn't want to say anything 'unkind' about 'people of color'...

These are both apologist arguments which I already covered and rebutted, but of course you two are both too stupid to read. In short, just because others were engaging in slave trading doesn't excuse or mitigate the British from engaging in slave trading. Your argument is akin to saying, "It's ok if I killed 5 people, because this other guy killed 6! I also never invented killing, and killing still occurs to this day!"

Are you honestly this stupid that you don't realize that your arguments are rife with incoherent logic?

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

British slave trading ran the Arab trade a close second in 1/4 of the time.

Rubbish.

The Portuguese were second to the Arabs. The Portuguese took the largest number of slaves in total to the New World.

This isn't something to be proud of, it's like boasting that you can crap your pants faster than your rival.

Ending the trans-Atlantic slave trade IS something to be proud of.

When many of the major powers of the 'civilised' word had been practising in slavery and engaging in the trade of slaves and when slavery was the norm rather than the exception you cannot single out one country as 'the bad guy'.

The British didn't start it.............but they sure as hell ENDED it.

Ireland benefited from the slave trade too. Ireland got wealthier off the back of the slave trade. Don't kid yourself otherwise.

[–] BuddyLove63 12 years ago

These are both apologist arguments which I already covered and rebutted, but of course you two are both too stupid to read. In short, just because others were engaging in slave trading doesn't excuse or mitigate the British from engaging in slave trading. Your argument is akin to saying, "It's ok if I killed 5 people, because this other guy killed 6! I also never invented killing, and killing still occurs to this day!"

You are missing the point.

The British ENDED what they were doing before and STOPPED it. The younger generation of Brit in the 18th century gained a conscience and started to think they were wrong. This grew and grew and it got to the point where Britain abolished slavery and took measures to end the trans Atlantic slave trade. The British started looking at themselves and decided they were wrong and that it needed changing.

Nobody excused the British role in the slave trade. The point is that it was NOT exclusive to the British. It was pretty much the NORM for every major power. It wasn't so much a British trait as a HUMAN trait at the time.

Black Africans were complicit in the slave trade and indeed were selling slaves long before the British ever set foot in Africa.

By picking on the British and ignoring what black Africans were doing for far longer you show yourself up to be the ignoramus you are.

The BRITISH ended it. This is the point. This is what got the ball rolling. They didn't start it, nor were they the worst offenders...but they sure as hell brought it to a close in their areas of power.

And THAT, sonny Jim is something that other countries cannot say they initiated.

BRITAIN took the lead in trying to abolish the slave trade for good. Nobody else.

[–] ronfirv 12 years ago

Buddylove, you are wasting your time! Newonic and his single follower, are closed minds - sane arguments lost on them, as they don't want to hear it or know, even in their heart of hearts they know what you say is right. They hate us ;it has little or no effect on me. Why ? Because I am British, and know the rightness of our actions in the past and until today. I am unwavering in my allegiance to my country and my peoples, my flag and Queen.
Doubtless, they hate Americans too ; comes with the job, mate! Lol!!
By the way, this subject matter is off thread - we are all supposed to be commenting on a splendid film, actors and settings.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

You are very much like the hicks of America. :) You must be inbred as well, and have no education. Do they also sell trailerhomes in Britain?

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

It seems like you are the one that doesn't understand the point. The whole point of this topic was about brits who defend their imperialistic past. Everything you are saying is doing just that. Defending the brit's imperialistic past. Be a man, own up to their mistakes and condemn it. That's what you're supposed to be doing. Not saying that other countries engaged in that behavior or that the British eventually stopped.

The difference between the Germans and the British is that the Germans teach in their schools that what they did was wrong. The British don't, and that's why you're wrong.

[–] Sheriff_Of_Nottingham 12 years ago

You certainly don't come off as having too much higher education as all you have done is rant, rave, and call names. Much like one from a lower caste. Educated people support their arguements with logic, reason, thought, and facts.

I feel sorry for you Newonic. You don't know when you lost an arguement?

Learn how to think for yourself and stop repeating your fourth rate junior college instructor's politically correct dogma.

[–] Elfminster 12 years ago

Don't worry about this one he's just got a chip on his shoulder.

[–] Archeoterrex 12 years ago

Just speaking the facts sonny. :) The British were genocidal murderers, that's quite a bit worse than a troll isn't it? Lol not too bright are you?

[–] willbrweb 11 years ago

Bravo herbsuperb! There is always a fool out there that resorts to calls of racism. Also, If they can throw in the "evils" of British colonialism and self hatred of being a white "man" then it is a hat trick. I only wish I were able to form as coherant and scathing rebuke of these losers as you. Bravo again. Now back to the movie!

[–] Robert-132 12 years ago

Don't tell that to Winston Churchill...he was highly educated, a renowned historian, a big part in saving the world during WW2, and quite an imperialist...

[–] jglapin 12 years ago

It is those "hicks" who have spilled their blood for you to remain free and able to speak your mind or whatever is in that potato mounted on your shoulders.

A troll is a troll and will never understand.

[–] Milo_Milosovic 11 years ago

Actually, some of the staunchest defenders of British Imperialism are educated conservative types who still hang on to an image of Britain that never really existed.

[–] DeutschlandUberAlles 11 years ago

Out of interest, how do you feel about French, Italian, Dutch and Spanish people who celebrate their colonial history?

Do you feel as much hatred for them as you clearly do for British people who celebrate their colonial heritage?

[–] FascistAnarchist999 11 years ago

The white uneducated ones with crap jobs in the USA voted for Obama.

[–] BuddyLove63 11 years ago

The white uneducated ones with crap jobs in the USA voted for Obama.

My white educated friend with a good job in Dallas voted for Obama.

[–] marktayloruk (2383) 3 years ago

I'd rather be a redneck than a Red!