MovieChat Forums > Zulu (1964) Discussion > Why were the soliders mostly Welsh?

Why were the soliders mostly Welsh?


Was it simply because of a total lack of understanding of the history of the battle on the part of the film makers, or an intentional attempt to undermine English military history and effectively give the glory to Wales?

If the latter was the case, then it worked well. Almost everyone who knows anything about the Battle of Rorke's Drift thinks it was a Welsh battle as a direct result of the misinformation conveyed in this film.

This film is anti-English crap for the most part. I'm suprised it's so popular amongst English people.

reply


Because in times of stress the Welsh sing, which makes for wonderful theatre.

In reality, most of the squaddies were West Country lads and probably the nearest they got to musics was something on the lines of .."owh, you, chocolate drop, you are going home in a f^cking ambulance."

The latter was no doubt more accurate, but lack the cinematic appeal of Men of Harlech.

reply

Simple answer?

Stanley Baker was a Welshman and Zulu was his baby.

reply

No it isn't. It lampoons the traditional 'Rupert' (upper-crust junior officer), but only in a mild way which any British squaddie, from any of the nations of our islands, would endorse. For all his foppishness and snootiness Bromhead is shown as brave, honourable, reasonably competent, and respected by his men as 'a proper gentleman'. It actually flatters the real Bromhead, who was only sent to command Rorke's Drift because he was so deaf and so dim that the 24th reckoned he was a liability on active service!

There is no purely 'English military history' after 1707, only British military history; and indeed there hasn't really been since the 13th century, since all the great longbow victories of the Middle Ages included Welsh troops.

As for giving the glory to Wales, the English simply don't feel threatened enough by the Welsh to be upset by their getting all the credit for something. 'Let the Taffs have their day in the sun' is about the size of it.

reply

Hey taffs don't need day in the sun.
I'm a Taff and very proud of Wales, welsh people are the best.
English are stuck up snobs who look down their noses at everybody, hence Michael Caine acting like A proper gentleman in this.................a snob!!! Stanley baker rocks

reply

No, we just look down out noses at monumentally stupid bigoted folk like you.

Trust me. I know what I'm doing.

reply

Exactly what I just stated.
You just proved how English you are!!!!!!!

reply

I only said I look down on cretins like you, kelly, not because you're a Welsh cretin. And as I said a bigoted cretin judging by your anti-English drivel on here.

Trust me. I know what I'm doing.

reply

Will you agree to a Scot seconding your comments, Hotrodder?
Great ambassador for Wales is she not? 0))!

reply

Hey Scott's aren't meAnt to defend the English. Bloody hell, I am a great ambassador for Wales and Scotland and Ireland cos everybody I've met in Ireland and Scotland and Wales are warm and lovely people. As stated in my below answer, I've never met a polite English person.......ever. Even the ones I work with are arrogant, rude and bloody ignorAnt

reply

Scots (most) defend the English when it is the right thing to do. Just you wait until the referendum result next year and note well the numbers who will vote NO!
The ignorance seems mostly on your side, my dear.
I used to live and work in London (over 10 years) and about a year in the North East (of England) and can say hand on heart, never met any more arrogant, rude or ignorant English people than I did elsewhere in the UK.
Suggestion - ditch that sack of potatoes you seem to have on your shoulder.

reply

I'll defend anybody if it's right. I'm sorry I'm very happy you've met nice English people.
I haven't yet and I pray I will one day. My opinion of the English is due to years and years of meeting arrogant ones, they are very stuck up. The ones I have met are rude, they insult everybody. There's one in my work place and I asked her for help on something recently because it w busy, her attitude was no! I'm busy myself.
I've known some that are so intent of being perfect they slag everybody off, they snap their fingers and expect you to jump. I've know some that push you out of the way so they can get to the front. I haven't chip on my shoulder, I just don't like them and as I said I hope one day an English person will prove me wrong. I'll gladly eat my words then but I've met about 200 English people and all 200 were ride and ignorant.

reply

I'll defend anybody if it's right. I'm sorry I'm very happy you've met nice English people.
I haven't yet and I pray I will one day. My opinion of the English is due to years and years of meeting arrogant ones, they are very stuck up. The ones I have met are rude, they insult everybody. There's one in my work place and I asked her for help on something recently because it w busy, her attitude was no! I'm busy myself.
I've known some that are so intent of being perfect they slag everybody off, they snap their fingers and expect you to jump. I've know some that push you out of the way so they can get to the front. I haven't chip on my shoulder, I just don't like them and as I said I hope one day an English person will prove me wrong. I'll gladly eat my words then but I've met about 200 English people and all 200 were rude and ignorant.

reply

I'm very happy you've met nice English people. I haven't yet and I pray I will one day.

Not likely to happen any time soon, with that degree of hostility radiating off you. So you have a colleague who said she was too busy to help you (and how do you know she wasn't? Did you have the right to demand that she drop her own job and do yours for you?) - and that somehow proves that the entire English nation 'is rude and insults everybody'.


I haven't chip on my shoulder

True: it's a d*mn great tree-trunk.

reply

I agree.
She must be giving off negative vibes to others, probably body language and tone of voice.
Back 30 years or so, my mother had a friend I didn't like too much, although I stayed polite and reasonably friendly towards her. My mother told me the friend knew I didn't like her much. I asked how she knew as had always been polite, and the reply was "she sensed it" and because she saw I was that bit friendlier with other friends of hers.
I suggest again this poster looks within herself, if she has the maturity to do it, and if in her heart, she wants to do it.
She should start treating people as people and give them the benefit of the doubt, and disregard old prejudices, based on causes most folks have long forgotten.
Am I supposed to hate the English because of Flodden or they us because of Bannockburn? I most earnestly and sincerely hope not!

reply

My tone of voice is very soft and nice.
There's one English person on work, the rest of us are welsh.
I asked this person once have you seen ........ Whatever it was, her answer was we'll go look for it.
The she went through a file once and said we have a lot of paper in here that can be thrown, so I said oh yes, we'll have to do that when we get chance, her answer was well do it then.
She is very arrogant and your not meant to be rude to colleagues when there are students or customers there.
It's not professional. I help everybody, people ask me to do stuff, I say yes. I help everybody, my body language is fine.
My managers on every job I have had have stated I am the most helpful friendliest person in the office ok so I am never rude to anybody.

reply

Oh for gods sake, I am the least hostile person in the world. When I've met arrogant people I don't do nothing ok, I just sigh to myself and for your information my work colleague who is English decided to have a two hour lunch, and told me you'll have to wait until I come back to have yours. When she came back, I got up to get my lunch at two o clock and people came in to be helped. I was doing my job and dealt with them even though it was my lunch break while she sat on her ass doing nothing except reading the paper. When ten more people cam in, I said excuse me could you help me please if your not busy so I can clear the room then get my lunch and her answer was no, not right now. For the record by the time I got rid of the customers, it was to late for my lunch ok.
She had two hours, I had none.

And a few weeks previous to this the same thing happened but I helped her. I was about to go for dinner and she was at same time cos had people to cover. People came in and she served and asked for my help. I said ok to help her, but I served for her to give her a hand and she disappeared. She went for dinner whilst I was still serving for her. Again she had her break, I didn't.

For the record, it's not a shop it's a university and students come first.
And thee are the type of people I have encountered, so please show me a nice English person And I will be happy.
And I don't have a chip, I give everybody the benefit of the doubt and what I feel for people I don't show so nothing radiates off me. I help everybody and am nice to everybody even when people are horrible to my face.

reply

Let me be brief -
what you wrote on this board was extremely hostile towards the English. Had I been English, I would have been annoyed.
It was a sweeping,and bigoted, generalisation, far removed what I know to be the truth.
I am middle-aged now, have worked in management positions, across the globe, with numerous nationalities, and have learned long ago, we should treat all people as individuals and make character judgements on how we are treated by them, and not referring to others' nationality alone. Yes, there are very vague and general national character traits, but one can often prove these stereotypes wrong!
Quickly, here's one -
the Scots are mean.
SOME Scots of course are mean, but ALL?
Think about it my dear.

reply

Yes I know, not all English are like that.
I'm just rather unfortunate to have met horrible ones and I know there must be some nice ones out there.
This argument can go on for ever. I don't judge people really, if an English man was in front of me, I wouldn't immediately think he's arrogant, I'd wait for him to do something and it's just unfortunate that the 200 or so I have met have all been the same.
I have been treated terribly by the English ones I've met so yes maybe I have come to the conclusion that they are all like this, but again I would like to be proved wrong. But even when this one in work is being completely rude and arrogant, I don't bite back, I just smile nicely and be polite because that's just the way she is and she isn't going to change.

I've met some scots and yes they are mean but I don't think of them all like that because I've met others and they are lovely. Same with the Irish, they are nice the ones I've met. As I said if I'd met some nice English people maybe my attitude would change but so far it hasn't happened.

Nice talking to you though :)

reply

Yes, alas, it could go on and on, because you don't want to, or are unable to learn anything, but the bigotry you have learned thus far in your short, narrow life.
I wish I could admit I have enjoyed our exchanges, but have not.
Go back to your valleys or as Jean Brodie uttered,keep wrapped in "the foetid frustrations of the petty provincial".
From your rants, available now to an international readership, you have done nothing to promote your little Principality, in fact, sadly, the reverse.
Yes, sad, for you.

Now, we (the rest of normal contributors to this board) can return to discussing this splendid little film, and the wider aspects, and impacts, of the unfortunate war (in some ways) of 1879.

reply

Well I may as we'll act like you say I do, get lost you egotistical ass hole.
I don't live in the valleys, I do t live a narrow life, I have these opinions
of people because of people like you!!!!!!!!!

reply

I don't live in the valleys, I do t live a narrow life, I have these opinions


Ouch.

Touched a nerve there. Never tell a valleys girl that she is a valleys girl, especially when she is.

reply

It was supposed to be felt - did you read her bigoted views about the English? I had to defend my English friends from nonsense as hers, and I am not even an Englishman!

reply

as Jean Brodie uttered,keep wrapped in "the foetid frustrations of the petty provincial".


I wish I had said tht and, come to think of it, I probably will.

reply

You're welcome, hahaha!
Lots quotable lines in "The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie", so wonderfully and ideally delivered too by the incomparable Dame Maggie Smith.

reply



"as Jean Brodie uttered,keep wrapped in "the foetid frustrations of the petty provincial".


No, the above was not uttered by Jean Brodie .One would have thought a pair of self -satisfied, smug gits like you and "da doo ronron" ,(the great pretender) could have got a simple quotation correct.Other than being a bit of a snob and a prat I know little about you ....but ron on the other hand, he is just one big mis -quotation .



This is what was said :-

"One must never succumb to provincial ignorance." ....." I will not stand quietly by and allow myself to be crucified... by a woman whose fetid frustration has overcome her judgment!"




So much for your foetid quotation ... Pompous! Pretentious! Prats!




reply

I'm not anti English mate. I've just never met any nice ones and judging by your insults on here I'm right in my judgement.
The day I meet a nice English person is the day I'll celebrate. Every English person I have ever met are rude, inconsiderate and very very ignorant. I don't look down on anybody, I may not like people but I'm very polite to everybody even English people and even when they are as I said rude ignorant bastards and I've met millions of them and they all the same. I smile and ignore them being rude and ignorant.n

reply

A tip, my dear, swearing on this board will not strengthen your arguments.
(I can swear like anyone else but I do often have to take a deep breath on IMdB, but still, it works!)

reply

I am English, but I'll try not to be rude to you. Have you met any nice and polite Welsh people? I am sure there are plenty, but I myself have yet to meet one.

Gentlemen, England will be playing 4-4-f---ing-2

reply

Oh dear, well you know what I mean then.
I hope to meet a nice english person and it's never happened.
If you've never met a nice welsh person, well I'm very sorry but they are out there trust me.

Peace :) x

reply

Thanks
I live in hope ;-)

Gentlemen, England will be playing 4-4-f---ing-2

reply

Well as your English my view of them has lifted slightly.

Thanks

reply

Oh well, pleased to know that! Thanks

Gentlemen, England will be playing 4-4-f---ing-2

reply

I'm working class English, educated and I'm proud of the brilliant four nations that make up the UK.

Why the retarded bigotry, and that goes to anyone?

reply




"working class"


Dont you have to have had a job at some time ,to be working class ?Clown

"English,""


That goes without saying


"educated"


Educated? Have a look at your most recent post on the Braveheart board ..Prat



Even junglecats sit doon `n huv a wee purr tae themselves now and again, likesay, usually after they've likes devoured somebody

reply

Almost everyone who knows anything about the Battle of Rorke's Drift thinks it was a Welsh battle

I don't.

But then I do voluntary work two afternoons a week in the Royal Engineers Museum (http://www.re-museum.co.uk/) and have been in the Hallowed Presence (the actual Webley revolver used by Chard in the battle) (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Webley%20and%20oth er%20revolvers/Chardsrevolver.gif) so I tend to think of it as an Engineers battle.


The church may shout but Darwin roars

reply

The company defending Rorkes Drift were part of the South Wales Borderers Regiment. The British Army was made of regiments from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland in addition to English regiments. Those lands have been part of Great Britain since The Act of Union around 1708.

The movie is based upon a true story and the makers were considered to be faithful to that history.

You might want to read up on the history of the Zulu Wars.

reply

The company defending Rorkes Drift were part of the South Wales Borderers Regiment.


No they were not. The 24th Regiment was part of the 2nd Warwickshires.

the makers were considered to be faithful to that history.


Again they were not You might want to read up on the history of the Zulu Wars.





"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence"
David Hume

reply

They are the same regiment. The 24th(2nd) ARE The South Wales Borderers. Look it up if you do not believe me. Please note, the narrator at the conclusion of the movie reads off the honors and calls out the Regiment by its then most current name- The South Wales Borderers. Today, the Regiment is known as The Royal Welsh Regiment.

reply

Again, you need to do your research.

The narrator is wrong, which is one of the many errors in the movie.
At the time of the battle the regiment was the 24th Regiment of Foot and the county designation was the 2nd Warwickshires it was an English regiment.

They changed to the South Wales Borderers two years after the end of the war.




"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence"
David Hume

reply

That is true, 1883 as I recall. British regiments are frequently reorganized and refered to in their most current incarnation. Their Battle Honors go back through their entire history including all stages of organization. At the time the movie was made this Company of the 24th was part of The South Wales Borderers. I suggest you visit their museum in Brecon, Walles. BTW, if you refer to them there as an "English Regiment" well, just don't do that.

reply


That is true, 1883 as I recall.


No, you recall incorrectly. It was 1881.



The point you made was:

The company defending Rorkes Drift were part of the South Wales Borderers Regiment.


This is factually incorrect and is the main reason that the movie is not:

considered to be faithful to that history


At the time of the battle they were a Warwickshire regiment which at the time as I recall was in England, in fact it still is.

I have visited The South Wales Borderers Museum in Brecon, if you haven't then I recommend it, while you are there check out one of their factsheets and you will find this


"It was the 1964 film 'Zulu' which suggests the title of the Regiment in 1879 was 'The South Wales Borderers' and that Welshmen formed the major element of the defenders at Rorke's Drift - neither was true."

The question was "Why were the soliders mostly Welsh?" and the answer is they weren't.
The film makers were in error wilfully or not and you are making the same error.



"A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence"
David Hume

reply

Hear hear. I agree, don't visit Brecon and say the soldiers in rorkes drift were English, they may kill you.

reply

Rockets Drift - where's that?

reply

Sigh, I just edited this.
My stupid iPad changed the word as I posted. Sigh

reply

Agreed, thanks :)

People who don't believe they were Welsh needs to vast Brecon & see the graves!
I live in Wales & there's loads of dedications in Brecon because some of the Welsh men came from there!!

I think it's just the English have to say "English vs wales" as usual!

reply

In reality they weren't, but was the way Stanley Baker wanted the movie shot.

Wonderful film, crap history.

reply

"Wonderful film, crap history."

AND that's the way these kind of movies should be, right? I swear, watching this flick make me wanna bust out singing 'Men of Harlech'....

reply

AND that's the way these kind of movies should be, right? I swear, watching this flick make me wanna bust out singing 'Men of Harlech'..

Exactly. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the cry of the lads of B Company, 2nd Battalion, 24th (2nd Warwickshire) was probably, "oi, you black bastards, you are going home in a f^cking ambulance."

But Stanley Baker thought Ivor Emmanuel's version was better

reply

Yes but I think that may be the difference between the Welsh & the English.
The Welsh don't call people that, the English are extremely optimistic, rude, think everybody should bow down to them etc & think they are the rulers of everything. Well sod off because they are not!!
I'm Welsh and would never call coloured people what u just did!!!

Stanley baker hated racists so yes his song was much more respectful!!!!!

reply

No racists in Wales then? Yeah sure!
The English(& I'm not) aren't any more rude than most other people anywhere.
You will never win friends by being "rude" yourself. Think about it.
Your own attitudes shown in this post betray you as narrow-minded and out-of date with a more modern outlook. In a word, chippy.

reply

Agreed, Stanley baker made this film beautifully. I love that guy, he's amazing!!!
I always get tearful listening to men of Harlech

reply

This film isn't English crap.
It was a welsh regiment I believe hence most of the soldiers are now buried in Brecon!!
There's a Zulu museum in Brecon and most of the soldiers names are welsh.
There were English there too but the majority were welsh.
The guy in the hospital says that as well.

reply

From Wiki:

Of the 122 soldiers of the 24th Regiment present at the Battle of Rorke's Drift, 49 are known to have been of English nationality, 32 were Welsh, 16 were Irish, 1 was a Scot, and 3 were born overseas. The nationalities of the remaining 21 are unknown.


Trust me. I know what I'm doing.

reply

Well I still bet it was the welsh that said "come on lads let's fight and stand our ground"

The English would have run incase they got their suits dirty,

reply

Well, the English didn't run at Isandhlwana or Kambula or Ulundi!
Do you even know where these places are and their relevance?
And I am a Scot saying that!

reply

Oh for gods sake. I know they didn't really run away, Jesus look up sarcasm will you.

reply

by
kellymariekitty

Well I still bet it was the welsh that said "come on lads let's fight and stand our ground"
The English would have run incase they got their suits dirty,

Strange in that case that of the 11 VCs awarded 7 of them were won by Englishmen and only 2 by Welshmen isn't it? The other 2 VCs were awarded to an Irishman and a Swiss BTW.


Trust me. I know what I'm doing.

reply

Hmmm yes it is isn't it. Have you ever read how England treated Scotland???? I don't like English, sorry just don't. Very rude people, I pray for the day I meet a polite one. Hasn't happened yet and I've met millions of English people.

reply

The welsh guys were probably bloody dead from fighting.
.

reply


The awarding of any medals at all was down to politics.
A good case has been made stating the wrong people got them.
Though undeniably heroic, the importance of the defence of Rorke's Drift was grossly exaggerated by both Chemlsford the generals and politicians to diminish the impact of Isandlwana.
Few remember that the battle of Rorke's Drift was fought on the same day that the British Army suffered its most humiliating defeat at nearby Isandlwana where 1350 men were killed. It suited those responsible for the disaster to exaggerate the importance of Rorke's Drift in the hope of reducing the impact of Isandlwana. The true story of the day is one of unprovoked slaughter, heroes ignored and the guilty protected.









reply

Some hard facts Hotrodder. Thanks.

reply

Ps try going to museam in Wales, Brecon and all the names of the welsh soldiers involved in Rorks drift are there and most of the men that fought there are buried there.

reply