100 yards?


The range that volley fire commenced in the movie was 100 yards. This strikes me as too low. In the American Civil war they would commence volley fire at 100 yards but that was with smooth bore muzzle loaders. The effective range of the Martini-Henry was 400 yards with a maximum range of 1700 yards.

I would think, with the Zulus charging in tightly packed lines, that you could start effective volley fire at 500 yards. even at 400 yards with a firing rate of 12 rounds a minute and assuming 10 seconds/100 yards you would get 4 or five rounds fires versus one or two if you wait until 100/yards.

Or am I missing something?

PS: this (http://www.martinihenry.com/zulu-wars.htm) site says that they presumably started firing at 400 yards. It also says that the number of Zulu dead buried by the British was 351.

reply

I believe most American Civil War firearms were actually rifled muzzle loaders, not smooth bore. They were generally pretty accurate. The Springfield Model 1863, for instance, had a max effective range of up to 300 yards and 1000 max. It wasn't that far off from what was used at Rorke's Drift.

reply

Yes, officially 351 dead, and at least 500 wounded, and no one was sure how many were wounded fatally.
A Sgt. Smith of B Company wrote his wife afterwards, and his estimate was nearer 800 Zulu dead in that action.

reply

Whatever the range and however many charges the Zulus made, the defenders fired more than 20,000 rounds of ammunition according to Morris' The Washing of the Spears.


"I told you it was off." The Jackal

reply

You seem to be right on. I've also read somewhere that they were firing at around 500 yards.

reply

As the British troops were so heavily outnumbered you can bet your bottom dollar they started firing well in excess 100 yards!

reply

I watched part of the film today. The thing which struck me was when the order to volley fire at 100 yards was given and the troops opened fire, within two seconds the first Zulus reached the soldiers - eat your heart out, Usain Bolt!

reply

Why only part????

Yes, having lived in Africa some years ago, and read a bit about iShaka, these Zulu were extremely fit warriors, drilled day in, day out, to as near perfection as possible. Definitely the most athletic tribe then in Africa and militarily, the most competent.

reply

Damned straight! They were like a cross between the Spartans & the Roman legions at their height...uSuthu!!





Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

reply

Shaka demanded the young warriors drill on a field of thorns to toughen their feet - any who dropped out or stopped were finished off, often on the spot!
They were only allowed to marry when the King allowed and then regiment by regiment.
Neighbouring tribes feared them and little wonder. Their fitness and prowess were awesome, and their bravery outstanding.
Go read more about the amaZulu, especially during the early years of iShaka, a fascinating tale by any account, truly will keep you hooked for hour after hour.

reply

The Boers warned the British to treat the Zulus as cavalry since they were so quick and highly mobile. but at Isandlwana the British deployed as facing infantry. this left them too spread out to retreat and consolidate fire against the rapidly advancing Zulus. at Roark's Drift they were consolidated with made their fire more effective. Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain (Isaac Asimov)

reply

Or am I missing something?


Nope.

Zulu is a wonderful movie and historical bollocks. That said, most of the fighting was at night so there probably weren't many opportunities for long range rifle fire.

reply

Wikipedia puts it at 400-500 yards.

reply

Wikipedia? Since when was that the fount of all knowledge??????

reply

It's as accurate as any other source when it comes to historical events. And I'd believe it more than I would a film.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4530930.stm







reply

A Wiki quote might not hold up as evidence in court, but it's good enough to settle an online debate.
Unless of course if you have a contradictory source? If so, simple, go edit that Wiki page.

reply

Both the Civil war and tactics shown in Zulu were influenced by Napoleon. It would be logical for commanders to use the advantages of newer technology, but the generals had trained for smooth bore battles. The one advantage to volley fire at close range would be to break the charge by creating a tangle of dead bodies at the front.

reply

What also has to be factored in when talking about firing distances is the terrain the battle took place in. At the time of the battle the area was criss crossed with gully's and dry river channels some of which came very close to the buildings. The ground also undulated (which was shown in the movie) which made volley fire ineffective as many of the targets would be obscured so even if the Zulu's charged in a solid line only a portion of them would be visible at any one time until they got close to the firing line.

Anyone visiting today would be hard put to confirm this, as the area has been altered over the years with many of the terrain features levelled.

Regarding casualties, this has always been a contentious issue as when relieved the cavalry sweep to clear the area killed dozens of warriors who were too slow to keep up with the main Zulu force but are not counted as casualties of the battle.

A South African friend had family involved in the battle, and according to oral tradition the death toll was far higher than that given in the literature and after action reports by the British officers.

As oral tradition is usually poo pooed as inaccurate it may be remembered that the Sioux warriors involved at the Battle of the Little Bighorn always said the battle was a total rout spread far more than given credence by the US army. It was only after a full archaeological investigation was carried out a couple of decades ago that this was proved to be true and the version given by the US army totally inaccurate.

Apologies for the lost post....

Si vis pacem, para bellum

reply

It may help to put things in perspective. I do not claim to be an expert on 19th century infantry or cavalry tactics; however, I have read a lot about the firearms technology.

The Battle of Isandlwana took place in January of 1879. In terms of weaponry on the Anglo side it was similar to the Battle of the Little Big Horn Rive in America. The British were armed with the .577/450 Martini Henry drop block rifle. It was a black powder weapon (pre-nitro-cellulose) firing a bullet 450 thousandths of an inch in diameter with 85 grains of black powder propellant. The Seventh Cavalry Regiment used the 45-70 Sharp's carbine. It was also a black powder rifle using a drop block. I think that both of them fired a rim fire brass cartridge. In the case of the Sharp's carbine, it used only 55 grains of black powder propellant because it was a carbine with a shorter barrel.

I compare the Martini Henry to the Sharp's because by 1880 (and I do not know how many years before) army sharpshooters had used the Sharp's 45-70 (70 grains of propellant) to fire at targets at 1000 yards. However, this was never used as a battle field tactic.

A study undertaken by the United States Army in the 1950s, which I admit I cannot cite because I read only the secondary references and did not seek out in depth, revealed that since the Civil War through Korea more than eighty percent of rifle combat undertaken by United States troops were fought within 200 yards. Most of them, over sixty percent of the total took place within 100 yards. For over a hundred years they had been stressing the need to train for long distance shooting, but the opportunities to apply that training seldom occurred.

Isandlwana and the Battle of the Little Big Horn are all excellent examples of the advantage of numbers, in the case of the latter the advantage included the advantage of firing rate, over long-range accuracy. At Isandlwana the native Zulu warriors were able to use terrain (describe in an earlier post), numbers, and poor logistics of the British soldiers to negate the long range advantage of the Martini Henry over the Zulu spear. In the case of the latter, the combined Lakota tribal warriors were able to use the rapid fire Winchester Model '73 combined with their advantage in numbers to overcome the range capability of the Sharp's trap door carbine.

The original posting and question was actually about waiting until the opponents closed within 100 yards. I think like one responder mentioned that it is more likely that they would open fire at 400 to 500 yards. However, the land around Rourke's Drift was rolling hills and I recall one description of the battlefield saying that attackers could close within 200 yards while remaining in defilade. It is not unreasonable for the senior NCOs to order volley fire at 100 yards in order to keep their soldiers under tight control.

On the other hand, they were fighting from fortifications and they had ample ammunition. Those conditions encourage the use of free fire or 'fire at will' (poor will, God bless the lad) conditions.

Oh well, Hollywood (neither Pinewood) has ever allowed the facts to get in the way of a good story.

The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank.

reply

Overall a very good post Dannieboy but the 7th cavalry was using 1873 'Trapdoor' Springfield carbines at Little Bighorn, not Sharps. Also the .45-70 and .577/.450 cartridges are both centerfire.

At the Battle of Little Bighorn the .45-70 cases were made of copper. A popular myth is that those copper cases were an important factor in Custer's defeat due to excessive rifle jams. While the copper cases jamming the cavalry's weapons story was exaggerated, brass cases were introduced afterwards and were indeed more reliable.

I'm genuinely convinced that every movie would be better with Arnold Schwarzenegger in it.

reply

Thank you for the correction on the Battle of the Little Big Horn, Doughboy. Good catch.

I have read that there were reports of the copper cartridges getting too soft with the heat of firing, expanding in the breech, and having to be pried out with a knife blade. I don't know if soldiers at the Little Bighorn claimed that as a problem.

I also suspect that a lot of things get exaggerated after the event for any battle.

The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank.

reply

The copper case jams happened but nowhere near enough to have been a deciding factor of the battle's outcome. I think the official investigation only found about 2% of the rifles found had that issue. It turned out to be one of those myths that got repeated so many times that everyone assumed it was true but on the bright side brass is definitely the superior case material.

The Martini round was originally made of rolled brass foil (basically a piece of sheet metal soldered into a tube with an iron base that liked to get ripped off by the extractor) that was prone to similar failures until they switched over to a drawn brass case like what is used today in modern cartridges.

I'm genuinely convinced that every movie would be better with Arnold Schwarzenegger in it.

reply

Thanks Danny/doughboy for the informative posts regarding the weaponry used at the time, as while I do have some knowledge about the battles concerned, regarding weaponry I am in the dark.

Si vis pacem, para bellum

reply

Excellent Post

BUT

The 7th Cavalry had been issued the Trapdoor Springfield carbine just a few months prior to the Big Horn battle

The cooper cased ammunition was a problem as mentioned

Some of the officers had Sharps carbines in the same caliber, 45/70, and had purchased brass cartridges for their use

Beyond the Civil War, the Sharps was not an issue weapon

Previous to being issues the Trapdoor, the 7th used the Spencer Carbine .56 /.56 rim-fire. A serviceable weapon, 7 shot magazine in the stock (a pain to reload for sure)but at least they were familiar with it

Keep in mind The US Army never found marksmanship to be important until after The Little Big Horn debacle

If a soldier put 40 rounds through pistol and carbine in a year they were lucky





You don't have to stand tall, but you do have to stand up!

reply