MovieChat Forums > Une femme mariée: Suite de fragments d'un film tourné en 1964 (1964) Discussion > An Inspiration for Bergman's 'Persona'?

An Inspiration for Bergman's 'Persona'?

posted 18 years ago by tim180-2
21 replies | jump to latest

Has anyone else noticed the similarities between the look of Une femme mariée and Persona? All through Godard's film, he has Coutard compose shots that are almost Cubist in nature. For example, when Macha Méril is with Bernard Noel, we usually see only parts of their body. There were frequent shots with only a quarter of Méril's face in the frame, while her lover or husband faces her in profile, a stylistic approach Bergman would employ with Sven Nykvist in Persona. The luscious lighting and film stock also look the same, although that's something which was probably more typical of mid-1960's films in general.

Like in Persona, there is considerable discussion of identity, appearances and reality. Philosophical discussions in Bergman films are pretty common too, but the subject matter seemed to be particularly relevant to Persona. Since Bergman claimed to dislike Godard's films, I doubt he'd ever admit to being influenced by this film. But the stylistic similarities look so strong, it really struck me as a forerunner to Bergman's film.

Does anyone know of other dramas of this era (or earlier) that were shot in a Cubist manner?

[–] devdutt3vedi 18 years ago

Parts of Antonioni's 1961 classic L'Eclisse as well as certain compositions in the two preceding films, L'Avventura and La Notte. The opening frame of L'Eclisse is a typically Antonioni composition, which one may call cubist. Also parts of the last montage in the film definitely point towards Le Corbusier like flat empty spaces.

[–] dr_remlaw 18 years ago

Can't be, Bergman despises Godard.

"I've never gotten anything out of his movies. They have felt constructed, faux intellectual and completely dead. Cinematographically uninteresting and infinitely boring. Godard is a *beep* bore. He's made his films for the critics. One of the movies, Masculin, féminin, was shot here in Sweden. It was mind-numbingly boring."

- Bergman on Godard. Pleasant, huh.

The doctor has spoken.

[–] tim180-2 18 years ago

Right, that's why I said: "Since Bergman claimed to dislike Godard's films, I doubt he'd ever admit to being influenced by this film."

But as I pointed out immediately thereafter, the stylistic similarities are too striking for me to ignore. I appreciate devdutt3vedi's attempt connect the style of Une Femme Mariee to Antonioni's films of the early 1960's, but while these were quite artistic, they retain a naturalist feel that is absent from the scenes to which I'm referring.

[–] dr_remlaw 18 years ago

Right. Actually, the influence could have gone both ways - there's a scene in Weekend right near the beginning that seems to be influenced very much by 1) the scene in Persona where she's describing the orgy on the beach and 2) the famous scene towards the end where she goes on that big monologue. Interestingly, even though Bergman hated Godard, Godard very much respected Bergman. I had a link to his review of the Seventh Seal but I seem to have lost it... anyway, it's a positive review.

The doctor has spoken.

[–] tim180-2 18 years ago

I very much agree with you on the scene in Weekend, and mentioned the same thing when posting several days ago on the "Censoring through music overdubs?" thread for that film. It appeared to me Godard was parodying Andersson's lengthy monologue about the orgy, but perhaps it was more of an homage.

It's my understanding Godard disliked specifically Bergman's films of the early Sixties (The Silence; Through a Glass, Darkly; and Winter Light), despite their critical acclaim and commercial success, so a positive review by Godard of The Seventh Seal doesn't seem surprising to me.

If you ever do find the link for the review, please post it. I'm sure it will be worth the read.

[–] dr_remlaw 18 years ago

My mistake: the review was actually by Pauline Kael, but I thought it was by Godard because the link was from this article, by Godard: http://www.bergmanorama.com/godard_july58.htm

I must agree with Godard's opinion on Bergman's Silence trilogy... Winter Light is completely empty whining as far as I'm concerned, very juvenile, and very...easy, for a man who made such uncompromising masterpieces as Persona, Cries and Whispers and Fanny and Alexander.

I never thought about it being a parody... although of course it could be. In fact, I seem to recall that in Persona the camera is fixed on the face all the time, and in a steady zoom, whereas in Weekend the camera looks (if I recall correctly) at the back of the woman's head, with the man's face quite dimly lit, and the camera moving seemingly randomly between the two. So maybe he's making fun of it after all?

The doctor has spoken.

[–] kriege10 17 years ago

I hate "Fanny and Alexander".

[–] craigbhill 10 years ago

It's a forgettable story of a family and a child who was Bergman. Cinematic masturbation. Using the filmgoer as the psychiatrist. "Here I am---again!---please diagnose Me."

At the base of Bergman's greatness you will find feet of clay.

~ Native Angeleno

[–] kriege10 17 years ago

Godard only liked the early Bergman. He was very nasty about everything Bergman did in the 1960's and parodied him in "Masculine-Feminine" and "Weekend".

[–] beauedson 14 years ago

entirely accurate - though i recall alphaville looking nice. thanks for posting the quote, i hadnt seen it

[–] kriege10 17 years ago

Alain Resnais's "Hiroshima mon amour". Godard's shots of the lovers in "A Married Woman" are a direct and obvious development of the beginning love-making scenes in HMA.

[–] tim180-2 17 years ago

I haven't seen Hiroshima mon amour yet. I'll check it out, one of these days.

[–] craigbhill 10 years ago

The entire film. Godard never dissed the sources of his borrowed brilliance. He never needed to overcome an inferiority complex.

~ Native Angeleno

[–] pete887 15 years ago

I've heard that Persona was a response to Godard and the French new wave, so maybe you have a point.

[–] craigbhill 10 years ago

There are aspects of le nouvelle vague Bergman got around to addressing in Persona (my personal favorite of his). Remember the references to the fact we're watching a movie? Pure Godard, who emphasized it first and not as clumsily.

~ Native Angeleno

[–] Felonious-Punk 14 years ago

Agnes Varda's "Le bonheur" was released the year after "Une femme mariee", and in my opinion takes the technique to the next level. It was simply an amazing time for movies!

*This is a place to write anything I think is important or smart or cute. It ends all my comments.*

[–] The_Coma-Man 14 years ago

Yes, BONHEUR really looks a lot like Une Femme Mariee, even though Bonheur is a lot (LOT) weaker.

As for the Bergman Godard discussion... I take Bergman over Godard any day. But yes, I can't understand Bergman's hate for all of his films - Weekend, Alphaville and Contempt are absolutely stunning, and Une Femme Mariee is also a great film.
--
VOTE JACOB'S LADDER INTO THE TOP 250's!!!
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0099871

[–] Vladdus 10 years ago

I'm actually very curious to hear why do you think Le Bonheur is a LOT weaker than Godard's dull, cold and pretentious film.

Le Bonheur has got to be Agnes Varda's best film and definitely one of the best films from the 60's. From the opening shot to the end it exudes pure beauty. The ending is emotionally devastating and certainly manages to leave a strong impression on you. Like Godard, Agnes Varda likes to make use of innovative techniques, but nothing feels out of its place; everything perfectly blends in with the idyllic, dreamlike atmosphere she creates. On the other hand, Godard's world is monotonous, devoid of emotion. However, I've got to admit that he still created some pretty nice shots, although not as impressing as the ones from Le Bonheur.

[–] craigbhill 10 years ago

I noticed in not just this film, but in other Godard works, a great influence on Bergman's films of the early '70s, with the spare backgrounds. If the liar says he hates them he must have seen them, or some of them, and been green with envy for his aping aspects of them he says aren't there, as he is with Antonioni, whose great films he professes to see nothing in---if Bergman's not a liar then he's an idiot. (There's much less to Bergman the man than most of his groupies, once of which included me, would like to know, as in his collaboration with the Nazis.) Godard apparently was too kind not to criticize Bergman's obtuse opaque qualities, usually of course regarding death, like a child who never grew, where Godard covers the range of human thought in his films, which outnumber Bergman's in theme and variety. And cleverness. And more universal themes, like sex, which Bergman the Scandinavian Prude could barely bring himself to approach on film.

Upon seeing a great part of the body of Godard's work, and likewise earlier seeing the body of Bergman's, i have found superior genius in Godard and childish personality flaws in Bergman, such as his stupid comments regarding filmmakers he didn't have the ken to know how to resemble except superficially, as he does with Une Femme Mariee.

~ Native Angeleno

[–] SherlockVonEinstein 8 years ago

Bergman a prude? His films drip with sexuality.

[–] SickSpazmoid (703) 3 years ago

No idea, because I watched Persona too long ago, but remember it being good and during Godard's movie I yawned too much times. Every yawn substracts 1 from the rating's initial value of 10, you know.