MovieChat Forums > The Best Man (1964) Discussion > Where was the incumbent president?

Where was the incumbent president?


In the film everyone sets great store by who ex-president Hockstader will endorse. But who and where was the incumbent president in all this? He had to be a member of the same party because Russell was Secretary of State and wouldn't have been running for the nomination of the opposing party. Furthermore, the undertone of the dialogue seems to indicate that the incumbent (whoever it is) isn't too popular because the party whose convention we're at is expected to sweep into power...which implies that it's not yet in power. So from a different perspective, how could Russell even be an incumbent Secretary of State? Wouldn't association with an unpopular party drag him down, not make him the front-runner? A lot of this is inference, I admit, and I could be wrong, but even so -- where was the incumbent president, who had to be of the same party since Russell was his appointee? It probably would have been better and clearer to have made Russell an ex-secretary from a previous administration.

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That's just Gore Vidal and his strange approach to writing. (Hi Hob!) Frankly, I don't believe Vidal's insistence in the forward to the play that he had never read Advise And Consent before writing this because way too much of it is eerily similar (Russell is no different than Robert Leffingwell, who was a Secretary of State nominee, an "egghead" type, and is it no coincidence Henry Fonda played both parts???; plus a blackmail plot that involves homosexuality in the past....Sorry Gore, I'm not buying your denial at all!)

I haven't seen the film in years, so I haven't got much else to say about it. Any other films you want to start an active discussion on? :)

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Hey Hob, go to the board on WWE. I just started a new thread. Thanks.

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Oh, I think Russell is different from Leffingwell -- Russell wasn't an ex-Communist Party member. But I never knew about Vidal's foreword to the play -- yeah, I suspect he'd seen or read A&C, certainly was not in ignorance of it. Does this make Joe Cantwell a right-wing Fred Van Ackerman? Now, they were very similar types, equally well dispensed with. Oh...and both presidents dying of cancer? Hmmm...Eric, I think you're on to something.

And hi back!

(T.T. Claypool = Seab Cooley?)

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I believe they were the opposition party-maybe the incumbent was unpopular.I'd have voted for Cantwell myself.Does anyone know what Messrs Stevenson,Nixon and Truman thought of it?

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You'd have voted for a racist, blackmailing hypocrite? Are there so few decent, principled conservatives out there?

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Racist?And besides-I preferred him to Russell.There just wasn't ienough info about the other three-although I'm for conservation sand against forced integration.

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I disagree that there wasn't enough information about the other candidates, certainly about Russell at least, but anyhow, if you don't believe in "forced integration" -- a term I haven't heard since around 1968 -- and don't object to things like his blackmailing of delegates, then Cantwell's your man. (Or T. T. Claypool.)

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Nobody is perfect.Forced integration means doing away with freedom of choice and association.It meant the legalised kidnapping of forced bussing because some bleedingheart liberals were obsessed with a proper racial balance.The government has no more business telling people who they can have as employers,customers or tenants than it would have telling them who they could have as lovers.

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Well, historically, "freedom of choice" in this country meant white people's freedom to choose. Blacks, particularly in the South, didn't have any freedom whatsoever to attend any school they wanted, eat in any restaurant they wanted, ride anyplace on the bus they wanted, or even drink from whatever water fountain they wanted. (Not to mention the facilities open to them were all vastly inferior to like facilities open to whites only, belying another phony doctrine, "Separate but Equal".) "Freedom of choice" is a discredited, hypocritical phrase, employed as a high-sounding cover-up of their real intentions by racists and their apologists to preserve their hegemony. The same so-called "freedom" did not exist for non-whites. The people who carped about "forced integration" never had any qualms about forced segregation.

You can argue about the propriety or usefulness of specific things like busing, but the notion that everyone was on an equal and level playing field before we were all "forced" to integrate for no good reason is preposterous nonsense.

In any case, I don't really feel like refighting civil rights battles fought and settled over 40 years ago.

And yes, Cantwell and Claypool are racists. They were against equal rights for black people. That is a racist attitude, period.

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Cantwell said that "I agree that all discrimination is wrong...but..people in Mississippi and South Carolina have the right to run their state their their way." I draw a distinction between legal and private discrinmination-a man's property is a man's property and he has the right to say who can or can't enter it.

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That's what Goldwater said in his 1959 book "The Conscience of a Conservative". In his chapter on integration (which focused almost entirely, and narrowly, on schools), Goldwater was so negative about the very concept of civil rights legislation that it was decided he had to add a coda at the end of the chapter stating that he happened to agree with the notion behind Brown v. Board of Education, that allowing blacks to attend schools with whites was a good thing, and that preventing it "carried with it strong implications of inferiority." ("Strong implications"?! Gosh, ya think so?) But he said the same thing you just did, that he had no right to tell the people of Mississippi or South Carolina how to run their own state, etc., etc., etc.

Apart from the fact that the problem of legalized discrimination went far beyond the issue of schools, the fact is that "the people" of those and other states meant, to Goldwater, "the people" and apparently you, the white people -- the only ones who had the right to vote, who outnumbered the blacks and who exercised absolute control over the political processes of their states. How can a minority deprived of any right of expression effect change or make their voices heard?

You may argue about "forced integration" and the like but the right to vote is guaranteed by the fifteenth amendment, and the right to the full, unfettered enjoyment of the rights of all citizens is guaranteed under the fourteenth -- both of which were not only ignored but explicitly violated by the South for nearly a century after the Civil War. The Voting Rights Act and Civil Rights Act essentially only made more explicit what the Constitution had long guaranteed, though for a hundred years nobody bothered to address the flagrant violation of those rights in much of the country.

You say you draw a distinction between legalized and private discrimination, but don't make the connection that legalized discrimination was born out of private discrimination: the majority who wanted to discriminate constructed their state governments to expressly carry out their private agendas. How can you end the one without ending the other? And what constitutes "private" discrimination? You seem to limit that to your right not to allow a black man into your house -- but no one says you can't do that. This is another straw man set up by die-hard racists. What you can't do is prevent people from using a facility open to the public on the basis of their race, color or ethnicity, or discriminate in hiring, renting, etc., on that basis. This is what you're defending, and that is not simply "private" discrimination, even if the facility in question is privately owned.

It may be that things such as busing and quotas go too far in attempting to remedy discrimination but the alternative, to do nothing, was what we had for 100 years, and that didn't address the problems at all -- it caused most of them.

By the way, in the 1990s, William F. Buckley, Jr., who in the 50s and 60 had vociferously opposed civil rights legislation and even specifically stated that he felt blacks were inferior and needed whites to control local governments, wrote a long mea culpa in The National Review, in which he recanted his earlier racism and said that the civil rights measures enacted in the 60s had not only been constitutional but necessary and that they relieved the country of a terrible burden it had had hanging over it for centuries. With all the triumphs of the American conservative movement in the late 20th century, he wrote, its one glaring fault was its failure to support the civil rights movement, whose goals, he now said, were in line with what he called the true values of conservatism.

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Goldwater-one of my political heroes.I'd have enforced full voting rights for blacks in free and fair elections-ewqual boundaries,for instance-and left it at that.

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But Goldwater was opposed to enforcing full voting rights for blacks. He never even, as far as I know, made a statement to the effect that he thought they should have equal voting rights, even if he disagreed with the federal government taking action to enforce what is, after all, a constitutional right.

I met Barry twice, and my mother's family in Arizona knew him fairly well, voted for him and liked him personally. I don't think he was a racist or prejudiced in any way. But his hands-off attitude toward discrimination was appalling and ridiculous. His notion that the federal government could not take steps enforce a constitutional amendment (specifically, 14 and 15) was preposterous. His naive belief that people could be persuaded to act "better" was foolish and in any case guaranteed that injustices and violations of the law would continue. Barry himself always made a point of telling of how he got a Jewish friend of his admitted to the Phoenix Country Club in 1949, when it was otherwise restricted (he did so by threatening to quit the club himself). But while the club admitted his friend, it did not change its policy, and Goldwater did nothing to try to make it do so. It finally lifted its anti-Semitic restriction only in 1964, when Goldwater ran for President and the club's leadership felt that having the man they supported belonging to a club that banned Jews would harm his image.

But I agree that drawing districts to guarantee the election of an African-American is condescending at this point unnecessary. As long as no effort is made to draw districts that deliberately discriminate against blacks (or anyone else), I think this sort of "help" is actually backfiring on blacks. In fact, Republicans are now leading advocates of racial gerrymandering (their pious protestations to the contrary are lies), because they realize that by creating one or two districts with huge black majorities, which will elect one or two black Democrats, they get to remove these usually Democratic voters from many more marginal districts, which in turn will make them more likely to elect Republicans. They've frequently backed black groups in lawsuits seeking such gerrymandering, even though many black Congressmen understand the detriment to the party and their constituents this sort of thing presents.

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I love this movie. And my only mild criticism is that Gore Vidal's timeline -- and his mixture of reality and fiction -- don't always make sense.
As you point out, hobnob53, the political landscape is hard to figure out. The movie suggests that the Russell-Cantwell-Hockstader party (call it Party A) is almost certain to win the upcoming general election. That leaves me to think that the OTHER party (Party B) is in power, and that the incumbent president must be unpopular.
How then, could William Russell -- a member of Party A -- be secretary of state for a president from Party B? I doubt he crossed party lines, because that seldom happens for secretaries of state. And if he was a non-partisan secretary of state, it would be difficult for him to be a presidential candidate in his own party, since so many of his party's members would see him as a turncoat.
I agree with hobnob's thought that maybe he's a former secretary of state. Granted, nobody calls him that. But even as a former secretary of state, he would retain the honorary title. People would still call him "Mr. Secretary." He could have been secretary the last time Party A was in power. Maybe he was Art Hockstader's secretary of state.
It would be hard for a busy, Cold War-era incumbent secretary of state to run for president anyway. In 1992, James Baker resigned as S of S in order to be President Bush's campaign chairman. He felt he couldn't do both.

It's also very possible that the incumbent president is also from Party A, and he's just so overwhelmingly POPULAR -- and maybe Party B is in complete disarray -- that Party A is certain to win again. Then, Russell could be secretary of state in that incumbent president's administration.

Here's a separate thought: the mixture of reality and fiction. This movie shows every president from Washington though LBJ during the opening credits. There are verbal references to Eisenhower and Stevenson by name. There's an implied reference to JFK (when Hockstader says it's now possible to have a Catholic president).
So where does this fictional universe fit in? When was Art Hockstader president? Four, eight, or 12 years before the movie takes place? How does he fit in, if Eisenhower and Stevenson are real people in this universe?
Some will say, maybe it's set in the future. But I swear, there's a banner or balloon or poster or something in the movie that says '1964.'

These criticisms are minor. It's a terrific movie overall.

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I believe Russell ex-Secretary Of State-probably under Hockstader.

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Russell definitely WAS Hockstader's Secretary of State. When Hockstader introduces him at the banquet, he calls him "my old comrade in arms." If that doesn't mean Russell served in his cabinet, what DOES it mean? I think Russell is still called "Mr. Secretary" as a courtesy. I agree with posters that the timeline and circumstances are shaky, but it's still a wonderful time capsule.

"May I bone your kipper, Mademoiselle?"

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