MovieChat Forums > Alexis Zorbas (1964) Discussion > i think this movie have some gay conotat...

i think this movie have some gay conotation...


I´m not homossexual or homofobic, but i find in this film some homossexual conotation (by the way, that´s cool, because at that era put anythinng gay in a movie was almos impossible)
But talking with friends, nobody seems to see that way...
my points are:
- Alan bates is clarely gay in the movie (at least in today´s eyes). Is that a proposital choice? The actor is realy good or really bad? ;)
- the movie is about a relation between they too.. but dont seem to me just a ordinary friendship. is more than that. There´s kind of a sensitive way in their interaction, and lot of scenes that show a unusual jealous...
- Bate´s character avoid the contact with the widow justifying himself with the phrase "i´m different", but when he decided to curve to the pressure of zorba, the relation with the widow is clarely maternal.

there´s a lot of little details, like the way he looks and had instant fascination for Zorba, the passive style etc.
someone had this impression too or think it´s possible?

reply

No, he is just supposed to be the shy intellectual who takes the real life lessons by Zorba. This is supposed to be an archetypical Greek story, repeated a thousand times in following novels.
The book is based on real characters and Alan Bates is the writer's alter ego. Today, it is known that Kazantakis, the writer, though married twice, was impotent.


reply

[deleted]

This is interesting to me that the writer was impotent and married twice. This film was deeply disturbing to me in it's treatment of women. Even Zorba's love of life was intertwined with the use of a younger whore while a mature woman longed for him back in the village. While he rose to the occasion a couple of times to honor and try to protect the two women in the village- one from a stoning and the other from the looters- it was short lived and both attempts failed. He and the Bristish man seemed to move on so quickly and create that famous scene that the movie is famous for- the end dance- The women's roles- all of them are so tragic and haunting. Is it possible there was some passive aggression on the part of the writer towards women? Whether the 2 men are gay or not seems a side story. For a moment, I wondered, but realized that the British man didn't have the bravery needed to enter into that game. He seemed impotent symbolically in life-

reply

I agree with both luciok and pontsuella.

reply

no, its supposed to show the empty, bookish-ness of the english, and the kind hearted, warm openeness of the greek.. i think that you may be reading a little too much into it.

reply

The character you refer to as "empty" and bookish is of course another Greek in the book. I have no idea why he has become an Englishman in this film. Furthermore, the boss is himself kind-hearted and warm. In fact his intensity of emotion is the equal of any other. I admit I've never seen this film but I have read the book and it's a towering masterpiece.

reply

I do not think the relationship between Quinn and Bates was meant to be read as anything sexual, but a deeper relationship; Father/son, Teacher/student, Master/mentor. I do believe the director may have eluded to homosexuality with the two priests running from the cove Zorba was rolling rocks down the hill to, but I believe the Bates/Quinn relationship was not meant to have sexual tension.

I also do not believe that asking the question makes one homophobic, just curious.

If their relationship was other, then I bet Zorba would be the "top".

reply

To me it is obvious that this movie is about a "man crush." They do not go so far as the physical expression of their love (as in 'Brokeback Mountain'), however, as pontsuella noted quite brilliantly above, the women are only passing involvements for these two. This kind of relationship is called "homosocial" rather than homosexual. I believe it was the literary critic Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick who explored this concept in British literature. Well, I would say it is certainly relevant to this movie and novel.

reply

There are several hints,but while Basil's real sexuality(even if heterosexuality)is rather closeted, repressed and quizzical, Zorba is to overtly and insatiably hetero.Nevertheless, there are numerous hints that may be interpreted as gay:the fact that Alan Bates acted very convincingly in certain gay/bi/homoerotic roles, the fact that the Greek have a cult for male friendship(both non-sexual and homosexual) and even in Greek mythology, literature and history both examples of friendship do appear often, besides Zorba is a Macedonian and even if he is clerly not gay, famous Macedonians(like Alexander the Great)were clearly gay or bi.However powerful frienship-with jealousy, devotion and all that-can exist without a gay desire, even without a closeted one.I'm not being homophobic, but straight men can develop very strong non-sexual bonds too, while sexuality may be irrelevant or incidental, I think that friendship counts. Besides Zorba is too extroverted, too affectionate, too friendly not to have strong and lasting friendships with anyone, irrespective of their gender or sexual orientation. Zorba is an essentially communicative being always in need of others to express and reaffirm his strong, theatrical, overwhelming ego.
The shy,twisted relationship with the widow might suggest that Basil actually "came out" as a straight man, after a long period of abstincence, non-sexuality and that Zorba was the "little helper" in Basil's pursuit of female sexuality(which might also explain why he is fascinated by Zorba, why he seems so passive etc.).

reply

I hate to go off the topic but you say Alexander the Great was "clearly gay", based on what? A hollywood movie? Have you studied any history on Alexander or ancient Greece for that matter? There is no real evidence to support such a theory, it's just pure revisionism.

reply

I must admit i might be wrong, but yes i do study history and tough most historical movies coming from Hollywood are bad, it does not necessarily have to be like this: if the most recent biographical movie about Alexander had a gay connotation either just to be more sensational or in order to be truly historically accurate, i don't know.
Secondly i said clearly gay or bi, but i guess i overreacted saying "clearly" because that historical period is too remote to have any real evidence
about Alexander's life. Anyway i would like to know more accurate detaills about the subject and thus have a more complex and precise viewpoint than Hollywood or historical revisionism.

reply

Had you actually read any history, you would know about Hephaistion and Bagoas. Therefore you would KNOW that Alexander the Great was homosexual. Imagine that, a gay warrior conquered the known world. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." The Theban Band...

reply

Inhibited does not mean gay. Shy deos not mean gay. Introverted does not translate to gay. Curious does not either.

You have issues.

reply

I think you have issues. Or you are gay and you cannot even tell it to yourself. What is gay about the movie? And even if they are gay, what the hell is your problem with it? Go get your head examined...

reply

hey, hey, is just a chat, not an acusation... so kep your "issues" cool, please,,, ;) and also write is a difficult way of expression, more if english is not your language. is my case..

i think im wrong, mainly before this story about the impotency (thanks!)...
But I also think is not so strange have this *suspicious* (note that, big guys, suspicious, not acusation), for many reasons, and more about homossexuality was so repressed in that era that is normal that show itself in very sutil ways.
thank you for your oppinion.

reply

Good for you for standing your ground! Oftentimes, those who cannot bear to even consider issues such as the ones you raise feel the need to strike back at those who want to examine life as it is -- not just life as some might wish it to be.

With regard to your English -- I wish I could express myself in a foreign language as well as you express yourself in English.

I have not seen the movie in many years and will need to see it again before I can offer any opinions about it, but I do believe that the questions you've raised deserve careful consideration in a setting like this.

Namaste, gtr

reply

gtredshoes says > Oftentimes, those who cannot bear to even consider issues such as the ones you raise feel the need to strike back at those who want to examine life as it is -- not just life as some might wish it to be.
This is a place to read about and discuss movies. I don't think anyone really minds it when someone brings up an issue they might not have considered themselves but the problem I see with all these 'gay subtext' comments is they usually come out of left field and the person proposing the theory cannot support it with anything that makes sense. They grasp at straws to make a point because they know it's a ruse.

It seems there is a concerted effort to raise the gay issue in every forum. It's obvious and insincere. They know full well some people are too afraid to speak up lest they be accused of being homophobic, bigoted, or insensitive. If someone raises an issue for discussion well they'd better be ready to hear other people's thoughts on the subject. They can't get defensive because those of us who disagree speak up. They fact they only want to hear from those who will support their nonsense proves the insincerity of their motives.

examine life as it is -- not just life as some might wish it to be
It's ironic you say that because the people to whom this comment really applies are the ones that keep trying to see gay connotations where they don't exist. If they really are seeing it all around them, something is very wrong. The nature of humans is definitely NOT gay. It would be like seeing clowns everywhere you look. Some movies have clowns but if you see one in every movie, get help!

Homosexuality is an anomaly not the norm. If it was the norm, the human race would have far greater problems than we do now. Our very existence would be threatened. To suggest a gay context in a movie because two men or two women develop a close relationship is absurd. If it were a man and a woman it would make sense for there to be sexual tension. That's not to say all men and all women are attracted to each other but there is an underlying biological imperative. It's ridiculous to suggest it between two men or two women, even if that's what the filmmakers intended it, because it's highly unlikely.

Some people desperately want to normalize being gay but it's not normal, accept it. Like having extra toes or fingers, it is what it is but it's irregular. No one has to mistreat someone with extra appendages but we also don't pretend their situation is like most people. Changing laws and pretending doesn't make one bit of difference.


Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

reply

Dear Tarzan,
HUH?

reply

gtredshoes says > Dear Tarzan, HUH?
Uh-huh!


Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

reply

Geez, what is your problem? The guy didn't say he had a problem with it. In fact, he said if it did have homosexual connotations, that was COOL with him. I haven't actually seen the movie, but I read the book, and I can see why someone might think there were some feelings between the two men. I think it is uncalled for to accuse the poster of being gay and suggesting he get his head examined because he asked this question. Lighten up.

reply

Maybe you are hiding your own hidden fears and agenda's

Who cares, it is a great movie-you flaming *beep*

reply

In India men walk around holding hands. Are they all gay?

No.

It's when you are clearly not gay, and know internally that you aren't, that you can love another man. You love the guy like your brother.

Heterosexuals are best at this because there issues are with the opposite sex and not both sexes.

reply

Actually
I don't know why "Some people " like to say things like this about every single movie they watch , and it really gets on my nerves when the movie is a masterpiece like this movie.

What is this.....?
You distort a great human relation by saying they were living together to sleep together.

I have a feeling that these "some people" wish if the characters in the movie were gays. So they check the movie with a microscope trying to find anything can give this feeling,even if they know that it's wrong.

And I'm sure the same people said this about Godfather characters because of the cheek kisses between men. They know it's common in many countries and it has nothing to do with sex. Butttttttttt...................

They wanna tell people : See?
the movie you liked said it's nothing wrong to be a gay .


So ,I'm not gonna reply such ..........

reply

in the book an older priest fancy a younger novice, but then can't deal with the fact that he fancies him and kills him. this is supposed to be an example of people not dealing properly with their urges. they still retain some of this in the movie, but had to leave it as innuendo because of censorship. there are two scenes where it's slightly visible.

when zorba goes up to the monastery the old priests look at the new arriving novices and all smile.
when zorba is rolling rocks down the hill to test its slope, two priests come out from the bottom of the hill and run away frightened, zorba laughs. that's it though.

reply

It seems some people get into this discussion without reading my points (and understand my POINT), only reading the subject... :/

theres no difference if is a gay relashonship or not. Im just asking if anybody observed this things...

by the way, "gay" is just a label, i dont believe in such labels. Most societies believe in this maniqueism - "gay" or "not gay".. Theres no limits... and is not important too how gay or how macho a person is... the point is not this... please.

reply

I couldn't find any homosexual connotations at all between those two. Just one of a great friendship where people dare to be themselves. They dare to have different personalities and appear the way they want.

I think the interpretation has to do with how old you are. Some people are just not sure of themselves or think in stereotypes. If someone appears to be shy and wears a pink scarf it doesn't mean he's gay. He has courage not to be a sheep.

If you think in stereotypes this is no western-style bourgeois friendship. Reserved, cold and what more. It's one of a more open and liberal culture (when it comes to those aspects).

Men don't have to behave or be interested in sex like animals to be men. No macho. We are all different. And just because we are it doesn't mean we're homosexual. That's utter *beep*

I think the actor did a great job of portraying a guy with a bourgeois western background and too little experience from life outside the books.

That's all.





reply

Nonsense, men can (and do) love each other without being homosexual. This film has absolutely no gay overtone. The treatment of women is based on the primitive culture of the villagers. After this film was released, most of the authentic bars with male dancing closed because the Greeks got fed up with stupid American tourists gawking at the men dancing with each other. How low has the modern age sunk?

reply

No, there was nothing homosexual between Alan and Anthony characters but I bet that 2 (two) monks were busy in sodomy below when zorba is rolling stones from above the mountain to check the so called 'angle'! LOL! I watched them very carefully, one is younger and another one is older with beard!

reply

I did not sense any kind of gay relationship between Basil and Zorba, it was just male bonding. I do, however, believe that Basil is gay or sexually confused, from splashing himself with rose water to snapping at Zorba for trying to push him into a relationship with the widow. Even the night he spends with the widow is somewhat ambigious in terms of whether they have sex or simply comfort each other.

reply