At the start of the Film James Garner's character says Time magazine predicts D Day will happen in the first week of June. Is this true? If so i'm amazed they were allowed to be so open about it.
I also remember reading that most of the D Day codewords appeared as answers in that day's Times crossword, though it was thought to be coincidence.
i'd be surprised if anyone or any magazine would put such a thing in print in those days. Found the review of this movie in Feb 5, 1965 issue of "Time" in their archive - they liked the first 1/2 of the movie .. didn't like the 2nd half.
-- ksf-2
The Times of London did indeed have the names of the Normandy beaches (Gold, Juno, Sword, Utah and Omaha) in a couple of crossword puzzles (not in one puzzle) many weeks before the invasion (not on the same day). Scotland Yard and military intelligence investigated this coincidence thoroughly and found it just that -- a series of weird coincidences. There was time to change the code names if there'd been anything to it so the fact that they stayed the same shows this was just some wild chance. Cornelius Ryan wrote of this in his book "The Longest Day".
It was not really strange that Time or other outlets predicted D-Day for early June. Everyone knew it was coming, including the Germans, and the length of the days and need for favorable weather conditions for fighting across Europe (which meant invading in time for summer) all pointed to an invasion at around the time it in fact occurred.
Another coincidence: most of the top German staff officers, from Rommel on down, were away from their posts the night of June 5-6, on leave or off for a day or two (Rommel was in Germany for his wife's birthday, June 6). Even Hitler eventually noticed this, in the invasion's aftermath, and ordered an invesitgation. Fortunately, the invesitgation was an honest one by Nazi standards, and no one got blamed (= shot) by Hitler for desertion or other dereliction of duty.
Another coincidence: most of the top German staff officers, from Rommel on down, were away from their posts the night of June 5-6, on leave or off for a day or two (Rommel was in Germany for his wife's birthday, June 6).
Not random, true, but still, the confluence of events and happenstance -- call it coincidence or something else -- was strikingly favorable to the Allies, as things turned out. No one planned to invade on Frau Rommel's birthday; it was sheer good fortune that it happened to be the same day as the invasion. Similarly with the German military exercise, and the absence of so many officers. Even though the attack was expected across the Pas de Calais I'd hardly call the mood among the German command in northern France "relaxed". They may have felt no invasion would come right then because of the weather, and may not have guessed the landing site correctly, but regardless of where or when it occurred, the Germans knew a massive invasion was imminent and they were apprehensive about it, given the uncertainites as to time and place and because they knew of their relative weaknesses vis-a-vis the Allies.
shareGood point. I meant to say that, given the poor weather and less than optimal landing conditions, the Germans were relaxed enough for the time being to allow their commanders to scatter. As you point out, they had no illusions about the invasion eventually happening.
shareAmazing, isn't it, how a seemingly smart military leadership can be so sharp at one time and so oblivious at another -- naturally, critical -- time? The Germans were great early on at springing sneak attacks, but were indeed completely unawares and disengaged from taking action when D-Day finally came. Like the western allies before the German strike into the Low Countries and France in May 1940, or the US before Pearl Harbor, or the Japanese about the secureness of their Code (and all its attendant disasters), or the Soviets before the German invasion...the list goes on and on, war after war, and people never learn.
shareI think Hitler was running the show and said where the defenses would be. By this time, Hitler was well addicted to meth which had him behaving pretty psychotically.
shareTrue, but even Rommel and the High Command never believed Normandy was a likely invasion site, and definitely thought they were safe in June '44 because of the weather. No one was arguing with Hitler, Rommel or anyone else that they had to pay attention to Normandy because of fears of a pending invasion there. They all thought the Pas de Calais would be the place.
shareThat may be accurate- but nonetheless, there was still enough enemy firepower and defensive fortifications at Omaha Beach to kick the crap out of the U.S. 1st and 29th Infantry Divisions. Imagine what would have happened if the German 15th Army at Pas de Calais had been mobilized to Normandy instead.
shareYes, imagine if that had happened...although even had the Germans accepted what was happening and moved their forces from the Pas de Calais, this would still have taken a lot of time (PdC isn't right next to Normandy, after all), and the Allies would have established a foothold by the time reinforcements arrived -- though certainly the fighting would have been tougher than it was after that. (Also the Germans had virtually no air cover available, which would have proven decisive against them in any case.)
But I take some exception to your phrase that the Germans "kicked the crap out of" the 1st and 29th. Yes, these US troops took heavy casualites and came close to asking to be withdrawn, but ultimately they did prevail. To say "kicked the crap out of" implies a defeat, which of course it was not -- just much bloodier, tougher going than we would have liked.
Note that even as the invasion was underway, the German high command thought it was a ruse and the big invasion was still to come at Calais.
zgran,
Quite right! Hitler insisted for weeks that the Normandy landings were a diversionary tactic, and that the "real" invasion would eventually come at Calais, so he held back divisions that were badly needed in Normandy. Rommel and other commanders grew almost suicidally frustrated as the allied forces advanced, and Hitler STILL held to the idea that Calais was the place.
As if he wasn't psychotic before!
shareHi InfoBabe,
I heard one suggestion that Hitler's irrational behavior may have been due to Syphilis.
I don't know of any evidence to support that.
However there was a documentary and they had documents about Hitler's medical history. The doctor was always giving him those feelgood shots and his staff's observations of his behavior was recorded in diaries and it was consistent with meth. It was a common stimulant in those years It is what the Kamakazi pilots got stoked up on. Furthermore, Hitler was also believed to have Parkinsons. His gate and and tremors were unmistakable
Hi InfoBabe,
You bring out some strong points. Thanks for your reply.
Thanks for being civil. I am not used to that on these boards.
shareHi InfoBabe,
You're welcome.
Perhaps you would give me your opinion of my review of 36 hours.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057809/usercomments?start=20
BTW: I had a little trouble with the IMDB site in sending this reply. Seems to be OK now.
Best.
You did a nice job.
Those days leading up to the invasion are interesting. There was so much deception trying to mislead Hitler on where we would make a landing and we were successful because he thought we were landing in Calais. There were, and still are, Germans who speak perfect English/American English. Some just through education but many lived here and in England and went back to Germany to fight for their fatherland at the beginning of the war. There were so many recent immigrants as a result of massive German immigration to the US and other countries after WWI and the following depression.
The TV is still so full of WWII info. Why are we still so fascinated? I guess because there is so much documentation and the Nazi rise to power incomprehensible in an educated, sophisticated country, until you know the history of the previous 30 years.
If you are really interested in all this, the definitive bio on Hitler is in two volumes by John Tolland.
There has been a very good documentary that has been shown a few times on the History channel called Hell in the Pacific. It is presented in military but also human terms with interviews of both allied and Japanese soldiers. Far superior to HBOs The Pacific.
Hi InfoBabe,
Thank you for your reply and compliment on my post.
You also gave some interesting information about German immigrants speaking perfect English and then returning to Germany at the beginning of WWII. My late mother(biological grandmother) used to tell me that Allied soldiers would try to trip up anyone in a friendly uniform (imposter?) who was viewed as suspicious with questions only somebody in from the homeland (ie, U.S.)would probably know. For example, "Who was Harry James' wife?"
One possible problem here is if these imposters were recruited from people who were raised in the country that they're trying to impersonate, then the problem becomes more difficult. In 36 Hours, Major Gerber (Rod TAYLOR) might be a good example of this.
Hopefully, the upcoming generation will show, or is now showing, some sincere interest in U.S. History.
Best.
I don't think Germans returned to Germany in great numbers but those that did were made use of by inteligence.
The policy of the US military was that if a solder was of German origin or had close relatives who were German or even with some relatives still in Germany, those soldiers were sent to the Pacific.
There were big powerful organizations (I think it was called America First) fighting against the US getting into WWII. Many members were German or Irish who also had no love for Britain. We had a lot of new immigrants in those years which made foreign policy complicated. Roosevelt had wanted to get in the war long before we did but could not because of the sentiment in the country. We had to get attacked first.
I know some teachers use movies to inform students about history. If the movie is historically accurate or deviations from fact are easily explained, I think it is a great idea. One movie I know of is the Last of the Mohicans (1993). Kids often post on that board trying to do their homework. Teaching about the French and Indian War could be so dry and boring but the movie brings those times to life.
Hi InfoBabe,
Sending U.S. WWII soldiers with possible family ties to Germany to the Pacific Theater was probably a wise decision.
I have a friend of mine whose parents were from Yugoslavia and spoke Low German migrated to the United States after World War II. When my friend was drafted into the Army during the 1960's, I don't think he could get a security clearance because of his parent's ancestory.
You may want to check out this link about Morris Childs. Both his parents and he were U.S. immigrants and he was a member of the Communist Party until he developed serious heart trouble in his 40s. The FBI then recruited him as a double agent in exchange for medical treatment. I believe this operation was called: "Operation Solo." I think the number "58" is somehow involed in his identity. There was a good TV program about this, but I can't remember who put it out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_Childs
I think if anyone spent any time at all behind the iron curtain, they could not get a top security clearance.
I looked up the wikipedia article on Childs. I don't remember ever seeing the dramatic presentation on it. Have you seen Breach about Hansen who was a spy for the USSR for years, failed lie detector exams but they ignored it. Crazy.
I just watched a PBS doc on the Bhutto family in Pakistan. Such patriots and so brave. Even a very touching love story in it. What a movie that would be starring Angelina Jollie.
Hi InfoBabe,
Got it.
I'm wondering if anybody who has ever spent any time behind the Iron Curtin could qualify for a lower-level security clearance. I haven't heard of Hansen, but it sounds interesting.
Flunking a polygraph should be a red flag. The only trouble is sometimes security can be viewed too lightly. People using weak passwords and/or leaving them in plain sight or easily accessable can be a hacker's holiday. "Loose Lips Sink Ships" and "Need to Know," has to be rigidly enforced. I just hope the TSA doesn't slouch on this.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0401997/
shareHi InfoBabe,
Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.
Best.
People never learn? That they are fallible and can't be on top of their game in every way every day? They know that. :) In wartime that fallibility gets more of their people killed than they had planned. Historians have the leisure to go back and tell all the things they did wrong. There is no evidence that 20/20 hindsight ensures that people do everything right in the present. There are too many unknowns in the present, including the biggest unknown of all--human behavior. On the other hand, there might be no end to war until all life is extinquished if one side didn't make big enough mistakes for the other to win and stop the destruction. Certainly the US can be grateful that for all of George Washington's mistakes he was able to finally take advantage of a huge British/Hessian mistake. That's how wars are fought. That's not a matter of not learning. It's a matter of strategy.
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