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'I'd rather see Dave Lee Travis play Macbeth'


Oh dear, oh dear. What a disappointment, an incoherent mess of a movie that sullies Orson Welles' reputation.

I think Roland the student from "Paul Calf's Video Diary" summed it up perfectly;

"How was it? What was it? It was a mess .... I don't think I understood it. Was it a thriller? Was it an allegory? It's like mixing Pop Tarts with caviar. To be honest I'd rather have seen Dave Lee Travis play Macbeth."

The only redeeming quality is in Welles' trademark style and some beautiful cinematography.

I had VERY high hopes for this based upon the director and the highly regarded source material but all it did was leave me as angry and confused as Josef K.

3/10

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[deleted]

Because my opinion differs from yours that makes it immature? That's why it's called an opinion, the film just didn't work on any level for me despite the fact that I really wanted to like it.

Perkins as Josef K was utterly schizophrenic and unconvincing from one minute to the next - a pathetic doormat incapable of asking the most obvious of questions in one scene, then the ultimate rebel without a cause stamping his feet with self-righteous indignation the next. I found it impossible to empathise with such a ridiculously charicatured central character who constantly overlooked the obvious human reaction to a situation, instead behaving in a way that alienates him completely from the viewer. Josef's inexplicably bumbling reactions to the arresting officers in the first ten minutes of the film lent him no credibilty or sympathy and set the tone for the rest of the film. In the absence of any other coherently constructed characters I was left viewing the entire film as outsider, unable to personally relate to anything that happened.

This movie was supposed to take place over the course of one year, yet it may as well have taken place in one day such was the absensce of any mechanic showing the passage of time. I didn't expect a cheesy montage set to a power ballad but some indication of the passage of time might have been helpful, no?

Sure, it denounces the sheep-like conformity of totalitarian regimes and the fact that true "justice" is an irrelevant concept in such societies (if not all societies). Yes it demonstrates how it's impossible to reason with a corrupt system that is inherently unreasonable. Yes, it shows how such a society bends even the sanest of people into paranoia and blind obedience and how our concept of our own innocence or guilt can be manipulated by external events. But these are hardly revolutionay concepts and have been dealt with far more convincingly in other films. It just didn't work for me as a satirical piece, the excellent Russian TV production of "Heart of a Dog" springs to mind as a geniunely thought provoking satire of totalitarian regimes and deals much more competently with many of the same issues as The Trial.

After watching The Trial I spent several hours reading analysis after analysis of the film (and of the novel for that matter) and the one constant amongst all of them was that nobody really seemed to know what the point actually was. They talk about mood, atmosphere and the nightmarish vision the film creates yet inevitably fall back on the safe premise that everything in it is "open to interpretation", presumably to avoid having to admit that they didn't really understand it either. This is all well and good but I found the film so vague in it's meaning as to render it a procession of nice looking but barely related scenes that made little sense when viewed as a whole.

I'm genuinely open to other peoples' interpretations as I'd love to be convinced to give it another chance. Perhaps I'm missing some huge element that would transform the movie for me but I just can't see it and none of my research yielded any results either. If this was a "mood" movie, then the mood it created in me was not nightmarish fear but instead bitter frustration at, and utter indifference to, the endless parade of two dimensional, disposable characters.

Ultimately all I could take from this film was a very shallow denunciation of totalitarian regimes and how anybody unwilling to bend themselves to the prevailing orthodoxy surrounding them, either because of moral indignation, arrogance or genuine conviction, is ultimately doomed. This just wasn't enough for me and, despite the usual flair displayed by the director, I found the experience extremely frustrating and unfulfilling. It was all the more frustrating given the general lack of continuity and unconvincing portrayals of the central characters. It's not that the film didn't produce a reaction, it's just that I don't think frustration and irritation were the reactions Welles was striving for. This was my reaction, that it differs from yours and that I found nothing that hasn't been dealt with better in other films does not make it "immature". I score the film 3/10 because I took nothing from the film other than a sense of wasted opportunity and Welles' usual stylish direction. Had I taken nothing at all from it then I would have scored it 1/10.

If anyone can help provide some better interpretation and specifically the actual point of the film then I'm certainly open to suggestions. I genuinely wanted to like this film but took from it nothing but frustration and indifference to the plight of Josef K.

Although it will no doubt attract some vitriolic responses, I was left with the overwhelming conclusion that this film was little more than self-congratulatory intellectual masturbation.

A very big disappointment, but I'm willing to listen. Convince me.

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[deleted]

In fairness to you, my original post was a bit flippant but the reason for it was because I found it amusing that my reaction to the film was exactly the same as a joke character in a short BBC comedy ("Paul Calf's Video Diary").

I'm still open to any other interpretations of the movie if anyone else can help?

I really did want to like The Trial, but it just made me cross : (

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[deleted]

Yeah, yeah.

Explain why this is the "best movie ever made" and "deserves to be in the top 250". Of course all art is subjective and I'm prepared to accept that I may have missed a crucial element that would greatly expand my understanding and, crucially, my enjoyment of the film.

I've given a rational explanation of all the problems I had with the film, so come on - somebody convince me otherwise.

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The film and the book are existentialist pieces. The message is that individuals need to find their own meaning and purpose, because the universe won't do so for anybody.
The fable at the opening establishes this message; the man seeks admittance to the law, and wastes his whole life waiting before finding out that the door was for him alone. He waited there of his own free will instead of living by his own law.
Likewise, Joseph K. wastes his last year being a self-righteous martyr instead of being productive and providing himself with his own purpose.

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I think it is funny how overly apologetic both Czulinski and Senor Herer were, just as the film's protagonist was early on. And that scene, where Joe K. obsessively apologizes is where I lost all identity with the character. I couldn't relate with either of your opinions, either, however good the 'direction and camerawork' were.

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I just watched it, and I have no idea what I just watched, and I'll never watch that mess again. BTW, I have never read the book. What was he accused of? At the end, he picks up the dynamite and rares back to throw it. Then there's about a five second delay - plenty of time to toss the dynamite - but it appears the hole he's in explodes anyway. Did he actually die?

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Yes, he did actually die. I wonder why you need to know what crime Joseph K was accused of? What bearing does that have on the plot? After all, we never find out in neither the book nor the film what Joseph K.'s charge is. That's the point- he's sentenced to death without ever knowing what crime he committed.

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"That's the point- he's sentenced to death without ever knowing what crime he committed."

Yes, and the viewer simply couldn't care less about his fate because he is such a ridiculous, poorly constructed and unsympathetic character. His reactions to the situations surrounding him are totally inexplicable and not even consistent from one scene to the next (possibly because this all takes place over 1 year - not that the director sees fit to share that information with us). I doubt a malfunctioning automaton like Joseph K could pass the Turing Test, let alone convince anyone of his innocence or attract any sympathy from the viewer.

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* "Interpretation and analysis are meaningless with regard to Kafka's work and - what actually improves Well's adaption - with regard to the film too" *

Come on - "interpretation and analysis" are meaningless for the purposes of discussing the latest tired Jennifer Lopez vehicle, not a piece of work that you describe as "one of the best film's of the 60's".

* "I personally feel that rather this lack of intentional deeper meaning distinguishs both book and film from other exceptional work" *

But why? Is "other exceptional work" not "exceptional" precisely BECAUSE of the "deeper meaning" it contains? Why is a lack of meaning in The Trial a good thing? Why are "interpretation and analysis ... meaningless with regard to Kafka's work"?

I don't think I understand your point, could you expand on it for me please?

But then this is the problem, I didn't "understand" The Trial. It still seems to me that nobody else understands it either, which I now learn is because there actually is no deeper meaning in there anyway. All of which is why I can't understand where scores of 9.5/10 come from - now I like all sorts of strange movies for all sorts of strange reasons but I reserve scores like 9.5/10 for truly exceptional films .... style AND substance. I can't see how a film in which interpreation and analysis are meaningless concepts can be worthy of a 9.5.

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It's pretty hard to miss the point of the film. Welles spells it out quite a few times. It has nothing to do with totalitarian regimes(nor does Kafka's novel- he wasn't interested in government/politics, he was interested in the human condition). Listen to the opening narration from Welles- particularly the last sentance- and what Joseph K says about guilt when he's talking to the dancer and again to the limping woman carrying the trunk. That's what the story is about. Also keep in mind that the characters- none of them- are not supposed to be rational, the reason for which Welles outlines in the begining.

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Well Briab, you've already done better than the rest of them, please expand?

Although I disagree that it's "hard to miss the point of the film". Read the reviews and comments on this site and elsewhere on the internet, everybody has a different explanation.

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I can honestly tell you that I've never felt like Josef K, Axelos. I've never felt like him because I didn't understand him, I didn't understand his constantly changing priorites or character traits, I simply couldn't relate to him on any level whatsoever. And the name's Senor Herer by the way.

If I had to cite a movie off the top of my head that has the nightmarish quality you mention then I would be more inclined to go for something like Gaspar Noe's Seul Contre Tous. That is a film that truly traps you in the nightmarish descent of the principal character, it directly involves you in The Butcher's train of thought and emotionally involves you in his plight even in spite of the fact that he is ostensibly a monster. This is simply because The Butcher accurately refelcts the worst depths to which anyone can sink under the "right" conditions and how his experiences can be contrasted with our own. There is a human reaction there, I can personally relate to this character's rage and sense of injustice even though I may not agree with it. Noe allows the viewer to understand and relate to The Butcher's thoughts and actions through the "stream of consciouness" style narration even if they are abhorrent by any normal standards and even if you can't relate to them directly through your own life experience (well I'd hope not anyway!).

The Trial simply made me angry from the outset, Josef K's reactions to the arresting officers in the first scene were absolutely ridiculous and it just got worse from there. Josef was a two dimensional cut-out, a clumsy mish-mash of schizophrenic personalities which made me as a viewer totally apathetic to his fate as he flitted randomly between rebel/doormat from scene to scene. There was not a single likeable character, nobody that I could even remotely relate to because every line of dialogue sounded like it was being recited by people who didn't have the faintest idea what they were doing or any understanding of what it was that they were trying to convey. I learned after watching the film that this was seemingly intentional on the part of the director, though I'm not sure quite why he felt that having his actors be as clueless as his eventual audience was a good idea. As I said before, the only emotions that The Trial stirred in me were bitter frustration at the inability of the main characters to behave in a way that made any sense whatsoever in human terms and anger at the fact that such a beautifully shot movie turned out to be so vacuous and pointless. I suppose Welles deserves some credit in as much as the movie did make me very angry, much more so than anything I've seen in a long time. That it provoked a reaction must be a good thing, that it was such an overwhelmingly negative reaction can not be a good thing. It made me angry because there was so much wasted potential in such a sloppily constructed film and such pathetic cardboard cut-out characters. In order to understand a character you have to be able to relate to them, how could I possibly relate to such an absurd character as Perkins' Josef K?

I understand that if you were able to emotionally relate to The Trial then you're likely to have enjoyed it a good deal more than I did. But what did you emotionally relate to? What was it about this film that affected you on such a deep level? Was it the characters? Was it the brutality and inherent unfairness of "the system"? Was it your own internal concept of innocence and guilt? Was it that you could personally compare the tribulations of Josef with your own life experience? Without going into personal detail, how did this film tap in to your childhood nightmares?

You didn't really expand on your earlier post or address the points I raised so I'm still unsure as to why you rate this movie so highly. After all, 9.5/10 is nigh on the perfect movie. You say that The Trial does have both style and substance yet you haven't explained to me what actual "substance" the film contains.

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The answer to the lack of meaning is simple. You're not meant to understand, you're meant to feel. Apparently, from your frustration at watching the movie, you did feel, in which case Welles and Kafka did just what they set out to do. Read the novel, not reviews of it. Nothing but the personal experience of Kafka's nightmares can truly communicate what you're missing from this film and this story. After that you can judge. Kafka is like Marmite. You have to try it and then you can love it or hate it at will.

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I could take the time to explain why you're wrong but since it clearly wouldn't do any good I'll just say: screw you.

Who cares about genre? The story is good.

PRIDE

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So let's get this straight ....

You would try to explain "it" except that would be a "waste of your time". So instead you waste your time by writing a pointless post to tell me that you'd be wasting you time by writing a sensible post, and include a juvenile insult for good measure. If it's such a waste of your time, shut up and move along ... there's nothing for you to see here, moron.

And what do you mean by "Who cares about genre? The story is good"?

//sarcasm on// How insightful - I concede defeat, you're absolutely right. This should be lauded as the best film ever made and why stop at 9.5? Let's get it the perfect 10 it so obviously deserves, how could I have been so blind! It's "a good story" after all //sarcasm off//

Come on people, not only has nobody offered anything more than vague, wishy-washy, two sentence explanations of why this is such a marvellous film but now the only people who can even be bothered to contribute simply resort to telling me to screw myself. Oh well ....

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I liked this film, i'll try to explain why. It won't be reasons why this film should be liked though. That would seem to require some understanding of what makes a film good or bad, which i don't have. I'm not even sure what liking a film entails. Perhaps saying i enjoyed it would be more accurate, but sometimes it wasn't pleasurable in the usual way as say eating a delicious cake is, but that seems an unrelated matter anyway. Looking back at the film, which i just watched, i'd say it was good, but that's a concious judgement i make not something apparent to me that i can easily explain.

I'm not sure in what way films have substance, point or meaning. And how important these things are to the worth of a film. I can't think of examples of what are generally considered works of art that have a clear meaning, a sentence or few that explains what they are saying. If some do, if that meaning was considered outside the work of art it would seem unimportant and unedifying. Works of art seem to not really tell truths but suggest them, give brief glimpses of them. I suspect our reaction to art is to do with the way our mind works, with prevalent moods. That's pretty vague. But I think works of art embody vague notions not precise ideas.

I viewed this film as an attempt to display/construct a dream. I thought it was convincing in this respect. It didn't abide by the logic of normal life. Characters were caricatures because they were being made up in Josef's uncouncious mind. The story didn't make a whole lot of sense as the narratives of dreams don't. The geography too was illogical and dreamlike, like when he was being marched at the end he went through incongruous landscapes. The whole settings were extreme and abitrary as if thrown up by Josef's mind. The whole dream seemed related to his sense of guilt and perhaps the film is about guilt, mabye something to do with it's relation to social structures and the pressure they exert on us. Additionally the sense of Josef having no control and the baseless guilt, shame and embarrassment, I recognised from my own dreams.

That's my thoughts on the film. I don't think or want them to convince you of anything, senor_herer. I think it's disingenuous and irritating to claim a film is great and then not even attempt to explain why or claim it's obvious why it's great and then don't specify....as it's obvious, yet it can't be if someone has asked the question. At worst i've given you a murky glimpse into the vague thoughts of someone who likes this film.

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......The way Sarris looked at "The Trial" 40 years ago was......

......"......Welles asserts in the prologue that his story has the logic of
a dream, but Welles on Kafka, like Mondrian's white on white, is less
logical than superfluous, less a dream of something than a dream of a
dream of something"

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I just finished "The Trial" for the first time this evening (I bought a copy not knowing anything about it), and I see a couple of different ways it can be looked at.

The most obvious is the dreamscape setting in which Welles filmed the story. Is it not normal, in dreams (and nightmares) to wander aimlessly - with seeming purpose, but also with a feeling that things don't quite make sense? Kind of how Neo ("Mr. Anderson") felt in "The Matrix" before he found out he was in one. I am reminded of the Betty Boop cartoon "Crazy Town" (1932) (included in the Rhino Home Video compilation "Bambi Meets Godzilla and Other Weird Cartoons" - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0022786/plotsummary), in which all sorts of strange things occurred that didn't seem to go together. In particular, feelings of genuine fear or powerlessness in life can spawn dreams like those portrayed in "The Trial" (as well as those in "Crazy Town"), whether or not one actually dies in the dream.

The existentialist aspect is also heavily present. Nothing that happens seems to make any sense, including Josef's reactions to things or even Josef himself. If we take the film to be a dream, that Josef and everyone else is a cardboard cutout is perfectly normal. But if we take it to be a portrayal of reality, that everyone's actions and words seem to have no meaning or motive is consistent with an existentialist view - that there is no inherent meaning in anything, and one must create one's own. And no person in the film does this - no one acts with purpose, or has any purpose.

The other characters are what they are, but not who they are - they do what they do because that is the role they play, and do we not often view people in this manner, judging them by the role they play rather than as the people they are? In this lack of self-identity, the characters simply do not know what to do. Bloch waits to do what he's told, for fear he'll be permanently condemned, while Mrs. Grubach fears to be anywhere near his position (or Josef's). The dying Hastler has no interest in his own life, so consumed is he with his power relative to others, and his power to give or withhold his assistance at his whim. Leni (Hastler's assistant/nurse) exists only to seduce, though not cruelly so. Miss Burstner has consumed herself by selling herself away (though that is only an impression). The other characters are similarly drifting and empty - because they survive, but do not really live, so caught up are they in mere survival for no particular reason, and they do not even understand the reason for their fear. While on the one hand some of us treat others as the roles they play, on the other hand many people - including ourselves - act those very roles, creating a vicious circle of identity destruction.

This is not to say Welles was condemning existentialism, only the failure of individuals to create their own meaning, in the mistaken belief that someone else must confer that meaning.

Titorelli bridges the gap between the existentialist side of the story and the Miltonian, in a fashion. In explaining Josef's options to him, he cements for Josef the clarity he has sought - that he's basically screwed no matter what he does, and there really is no way out. His only options (apart, of course, from confession and conviction) are to seek 'definite acquittal,' which is technically but not actually possible, or 'ostensible acquittal,' which essentially postpones the inevitable. Thinking of it in terms of the human condition, rather than the totalitarianism of Orwell's "1984" (which Briab correctly noted on 5/30/05 in this thread was Welles's interest), there are yet two ways to look at it: One is the certainty that we are going to die, and the other is the religious possibility (not addressed in the film - I have not read the book yet, though I suspect it was not there, either) of avoiding that certain fate.

In the first possibility is where existentialism starts up, in approaching philosophy subjectively rather than objectively (as did rationalists, empiricists and Kant) by noting that we cannot even study the phenomenal world without studying the student - oneself - and the clearest expression of that study is the knowledge of our own finitude. In that, existentialism observes no inherent meaning - i.e., "what's the point, if we're just going to die, anyway?" - and thus we must create it ourselves. And that self-creation - even if only illusory - is making our own way out of a futile existence.

For those unable or unwilling to create their own meaning, religion offers it from without. Not necessarily (though usually) in the objective sense - i.e., the objective reality of various mythological beliefs - but in the subjective sense, of one's relation to the universe. In the film, we see this in every character who suggests that Josef bow to the inevitable - that he is guilty (mortal) and cannot escape (i.e., will die). The police warn him as to his subsequent actions, Miss Burstner tells him no one gives a damn (i.e., "you're doomed - so what?"). Uncle Max is horrified, and rushes Josef off to Hastler, who insists he's the only way out, if there is a way. Contrast the latter with Bloch, who has utter faith and belief in Hastler's ability to save him from his inevitable fate, to the point that he is more afraid of Hastler than the system that condemns him. Leni admonishes him to forget about it and enjoy (probably the best advice anyone gives in the film), though he cannot do so because of the knowledge of his fate and the agony of not understanding the reasons behind it. He does not even accept Titortelli's options, knowing what those options mean though he cannot be guilty of anything (especially having not been charged with anything). He finally sees the absurdity of the situation shortly after leaving Titorelli when he realizes the other accused persons are afraid of him - not because he's a judge, but because he's not afraid of continuing to fight the system despite the futility of doing so. He continues to defy the system right up to the end - despite that 5-second delay during which he could have thrown the dynamite away, and that delay might have been deliberate, as a kind of acceptance of the inevitable. He must die eventually, but will not live the life of fear, such as Bloch; or denial, such as Leni; or despair, such as Miss Burstner; and a life of power over others for its own sake, such as Hastler's, is not available to him. He is resigned, in the end, but requires the final, actual act of ending his life must be done by others; he will not suicide (though it is questionable whether he did so - I cannot imagine that 5-second delay was anything other than deliberate, but it may have been more for our benefit than Josef's).

While a specifically Christian religious outlook is not necessary (and I am far from any authority on that in any case and do not hold with those viewpoints, FYI), there is almost a reverse-Miltonian outlook on it. Remembering back to concepts of original sin (which I have myself always rejected the validity of), man is condemned to die because of the sin of our ultimate ancestors, even though the fault was theirs and not ours - and for a crime which, to humans, seems kind of silly in itself. And this, in a way, parallels Josef's situation - not that of Adam and Eve, but that of a descendant. He is accused of nothing, yet stands accused nonetheless and subject to trial, and finally condemned to die, though he did nothing to merit that penalty. And because he remains certain of his innocence, he refuses in a way to despair or surrender. The accusation (of nothing), indeed any trial at all, is unjust, and no escape route - no saving grace, or savior - can change or mitigate that, because it says the only way out is to accept the system and its validity, which he refuses to do throughout the film. (Remember, he went to Hastler at his uncle's urging, not his own.) He seems to be confused and unaware of what's going on - perpetually bewildered and clueless - but of truth and justice he remains certain throughout the film, rejecting even the last offer of salvation from Hastler. Josef recognizes that, even if he surrenders to the system and pleads for his life / soul, like the opening parable he may still be denied, having wasted his entire life on that hope.

Ultimately, he rejects that, having seen what it has done to others, though it mean his death. I called the setup "reverse Miltonian" because, while he ends with the defiance of "better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven" (and the executioners throwing Josef into the pit at the end brought up visions of the end of Book 1 of "Paradise Lost"), the society and legal system are portrayed in the film as a most wretched way to live. Knowing (per the opening parable) that the search is futile by its nature, anyway, he adopts a more existential - perhaps even a Norse - approach, by maintaining his defiance despite the certainty of losing the fight. That is to say, the available rescue from a certain fate claimed by the system, rather than the defiance of that system, is the real sham, unlike the traditional approach in which exile ("reigning in Hell") is perceived as the ultimate punishment. Here, Josef chose it as a victory instead, as did Lucifer in Milton's works.

Throughout the film, Josef appears to be completely clueless and irrational. But perhaps the only rational response to an irrational situation is, in fact, an irrational response. As he goes from dream scene to dream scene, and uncovers one unpleasant truth after another and identifies it, he demonstrates that he is not clueless, just afraid and shocked and horrified as he discovers the true nature of his situation. It can even be analogized, as the film suggested to me throughout, as the story of a man who refuses to remain in Plato's Cave. By refusing to change his direction, maintaining it to the end, he demonstrates his ultimate commitment to sanity, though his world be insane. In that sense, Josef can be seen to be the hero of the film.

What I found fascinating was Senor Herer's comment that: "If this was a "mood" movie, then the mood it created in me was not nightmarish fear but instead bitter frustration at, and utter indifference to, the endless parade of two dimensional, disposable characters." Not meaning to be insulting in any way; rather, the comment to me was ironic, because the frustration expressed is (as I see, at least) exactly the same frustration Josef was experiencing throughout the story. And while he was not indifferent to anyone, pretty much everyone was indifferent to him - as an individual person, as opposed to as a "role" (as I described above) - exacerbating his own frustration. As I see it, Senor Herer, by making you feel what you did, Welles accomplished his purpose far better than you (or he) could have expected, by putting you into it without having to participate in the "nightmare."

I do not mean to suggest that Welles necessarily meant all, or even any, of these viewpoints to be expressed. Perhaps it was less an allegory (which is in the intention of the author to communicate) than an applicability (which is in the freedom of the viewer to interpret) that I have found in the film. But I found it far from shallow, and an excellent portrayal of the human condition, from whatever perspective.

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You're acting like a troll bashing a movie I love. Why should I respect you?

PRIDE

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