MovieChat Forums > Nattvardsgästerna (1963) Discussion > Depression

Depression

posted 20 years ago by Thosdragavon
10 replies | jump to latest

An intense and gripping movie of depression. Max Von Sydow's character comes to a pastor for counseling, actually brought by his wife. His depression manifests itself in worry about China having an atomic bomb and not liking the west. The pastor is in his own depression, having lost his values along with his belief in God. The school teacher has pledged herself to the pastor, who doesn't want her, as he doesn't even like himself. She sees no other choice for herself. Why would anyone want to watch these depressed people; I guess because the movie is well done and true.

Of other interest, I ran the movie a second time watching it with the English dubbing. It was awful, remarks that were serious and caring in the Swedish become cynical in the English translation.

[–] gorevich 19 years ago

One cannot only watch happy things. I can wsee how the dubbing must be terrible, I never watch dubbed movies, better to text instead.

Best regards!

[–] Greenteeth 19 years ago

If you've seen "Annie Hall," you'll remember the young Alvie Singer's trip to see the flippant Dr. Flicker (who smokes in his examination room). Alvie's mother is at her wit's end trying to figure out what is wrong with her son. Alvie tells the doctor that the world keeps expanding and he's worried about how it will all end up. While lighthearted, this scene is similar to the one you describe above. This is another of Allan's nods to Bergman.

[–] pilotwave 19 years ago

Am I the only one who thinks that the scene in Winter Light, too, has a slight comical sense to it? I think the way Karin Persson describes her husband's condition is somehow very funny in spite of the whole thing being deeply tragical. And I wonder if that could have been intentional. It wouldn't be quite Bergmanesque (in a non-comedy), but I don't mind.

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] pilotwave 19 years ago

I actually think the Chinese-bomb thing works (comical aspects aside). Remember the way he puts it (though we here it through Karin): They have nothing to lose. And then it dawns upon him: "What have I got to lose? What would I lose by ending this life, and why should I suffer anymore?" Why he suffered in the first place seems quite irrelevant. A lot of people become depressed for a myriad of reasons, don't they? What's important is, like you say, that Tomas can't save him. But I also think that the nature of Jonas's depression (the way I interpret it, that is) inspires Tomas's (temporary) resolution to his theological tribulations. Why struggle to make sense of the contradictory goodness of the silent God who lets humans live in doubt and suffering, when we can liberate our minds by just accepting the meaninglessness as a fact? For Jonas the lack of meaning is what drives him to suicide (among some other things, we have to assume), but for Tomas the same insight seems like a way out of the desperate struggle that is slowly depriving him of all joy and motivation for living a real life with real people.

[–] 19 years ago

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[–] Strausszek 18 years ago

I remember thinking Jonas words sounded a bit loony when I read the script (this is one of those Bergmans I haven't seen), very much the ramblings of an old man in the woods, but the anxiety about the atomic bomb *and* about the role of China was very much in the news at the time. The Chinese detonated their first A-bomb in 1964 and it must have seemed foreboding, because they were outside of the two big power blocks and had an extremely aggressive tone (even at the death of president Kennedy a vicious caricature went out in the "People's Daily"). No doubt people were worrying: if the Chinese start equipping some African country that's gone communist with robots, like the Soviets did with Cuba just before "Winter light" began shooting, wouldn't they be invincible? And wouldn't they be able to think, they can sustain a hundred million dead and come out on top? For a more down-to-earth transposition of the same problem, let's try "How can we have a happy Christmas when millions of people are starving and mercilessly tortured in Africa?"
I think you're right pilotwave on the multiple causes of Jonas' worries, but I'd better see the actual film. :-)

[–] Strausszek 18 years ago

By the way, here's a not completely realistic example of Christmas depression, Swedish style. This was posted a few days before Christmas by a young lady acquaintance of mine, on her blog. I've translated it into English and changed one or two details to make it easier; the spoken-word style syntax is her own. I don't know how many of the details are true, the Chilean thing could well be since her mother's family is from Chile, but she also fools around with the markers of depression (Lars Norén is an eminent playwright who has also shown up a number of blown-to-bits families, and who owes something to Bergman).

I CAN'T GET AROUND IT, yer all Swedish and you like Swedish music & Swedish cooking, British too, and cardigans to boot. OK, I'll shoot myself down here in the corner of my apartment. What makes me real sorry is that Radio One exists, makes me wanna cry,
Hey, I tell ya, You ain't never gonna outdo me in sick family relationships and never NEVER in sick Christmas eves. Lars Norén and Ingmar Bergman, them guys make feelgood movies compared to my real life stuff. I got a ruby when I was ten years old, my dad read his mistress' diary who suffered from anorexia, she was sodden sad and it goes on and on...
I have nine brothers and sisters, two of them got the same name. Granny converted to Judaism, my mom is thinking of besoming a Roman Catholic. Sometimes I've been eating turkey and serving chilean long drinks on Christmas eve, sometimes no food at all just pasta and mashed tomatoes. Mommy don't like food, she's an anti-materialist so dinner is just a superficial thing.

[–] simplypm2004 16 years ago

I am not that familiar with Bergman, and so it is hard for me to sort out and recognize the difference between "What is it that Bergman is trying to say here?", and "What is my own view on the matter?". On this particular question, that is, the matter of the use of the 'impending threat of a nuclear China', it seems to me that Bergman wants to use an actual fact that expresses the real picture of the direction of earthly humanity, and at the same time puts the problem about as far away as possible; both in the location of its festering and in its remoteness from probability. By doing so he illustrates that depression as a soul condition discovers itself everywhere it looks and continually finds support. It is almost comical, that with all the depressing things that hover about in ones environs why does Jonas go all the way to China to find something suicidal to fixate on? It also shows that there is nothing compelling in the condition of depression except the desire to escape. It does not support the vehicle of suicide. You don't take your life because of something the Chinese may do someday.

(PRN) – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=id-bFpYQzXE

[–] 16 years ago

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