The priest to blame for Jonas suicide? - Nattvardsgästerna (1963) Discussion

[–] Harlesden_P_Ruffkins 14 years ago

For me it felt clear that the 'talk' with Jonas was what put him over the edge. Jonas was depressed for months(?) but then killed himself directly after the meeting.

It did seem odd to me though how it isn't really mentioned by anyone and the priest doesn't seem that troubled by it. Maybe just an oversight by Bergman who wanted to tell a different story rather than one about a priest feeling guilt for inducing someone to kill themselves.

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[–] jsrrtzjr10 14 years ago

If the idiot wanted to blow his brains out is nobody's fault.

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[–] Kammurabi 14 years ago

Just look into the face of Jonas right before he leaves. You can see the conversation broke him.

Difficult to see what level of blame Tomas should be given though. He was speaking sincerely the truth of his own mind. If a pack of lies was what Jonas needed to soothe him, he went to the wrong guy.

.

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[–] Edward_de_Vere 13 years ago

The priest is really taking the time to talk about himself
when Jonas seeks him. Which I feel pushes Jonas to shoot
himself? Was this obvious in the plot? Or?

Pastor Ericsson was too self-absorbed to offer insight or emotional support to another person. He almost didn't care. Now whether that makes him directly responsible for Jonas' death is debatable: perhaps a Pastor who took his duties seriously could have dissuaded him, perhaps not.

Regardless, the scenes with Jonas are among the strongest in the film, as is the scene where the Pastor proclaims his disgust and loathing for his mistress.

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[–] todflet 13 years ago

Jonas came to the pastor because he feared the Chinese were so crazy they would use nuclear weapons as soon as they developed them and bring an end to the world. He couldn't understand how the world could be in such a situation if God exists. This is the classic "problem of evil" which Christianity always raises with its dominant idea that God is all powerful. If God is all powerful, then God has the power to maintain a just world with much less evil. Yet the world is full of evil. Therefore, either God is evil or does not exist.

Jonas came to the pastor seeking counsel and consolation. All the pastor could say was "God does not exist." This left Jonas unconsoled, naturally.

It's Christianity's fault. I wish Jonas had come to me. I would have told him that God exists, loves him and his family and everyone, including the Chinese. But also, that God is not all powerful. God cannot eliminate the evil in the world, because of "creaturely freedom". We creatures have our own power, more than enough to make a terrible nightmare of existence.

And I would also have told him that there is an afterlife, because there is! And so life is not meaningless, even if it cannot escape the evil within human society. Life here is preparation for the next phase of our endless journey. Be good, it matters!

Jonas need not have gone away unconsoled, if he had gone to someone with a better understanding of reality than Christian pastors typically possess.

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[–] Olaf_von_Quartz 12 years ago

I guess you are a christian, but could you say it if you didn't believe in it?

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[–] todflet 12 years ago

No, I am not a Christian, partly because of this very problem of evil that dogs almost all versions of Christianity. But I do believe what I said about God. Believing in God does not require that one be a Christian. Or have I misunderstood you?

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[–] kneecapboy 12 years ago

I think at first the priest was genuinely trying to say to Jonas that we all struggle with finding meaning in life, even a man of God. Once he opens that door though, the priest (perhaps unintentionally) lets forth a torrent of his own questions, doubts and anxieties ultimately concluding that there is no hope or certainty.

In my mind the priest was perhaps the last straw for Jonas but that does not mean he is to blame for his death. Certainly no more so than Jonas' wife or any other person in his community and life. The priest even asked him if he had been to see a doctor. At the end of the day Jonas committed suicide, no one else.

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[–] Hythlodaeus 12 years ago

"I think at first the priest was genuinely trying to say to Jonas that we all struggle with finding meaning in life, even a man of God. Once he opens that door though, the priest (perhaps unintentionally) lets forth a torrent of his own questions, doubts and anxieties ultimately concluding that there is no hope or certainty. "

The above is true but the priest is an evil man because he doesn't care about Jonas or his family - if he had cared, he would have realized he should have ended his talk with some hope.

Then later with Marta, I was wondering, "Are you trying to go for two suicides in one day?"

The priest should step down and go off alone somewhere and wrestle out his questions about God. If he doesn't resolve them at least he isn't dragging people down with him. As a priest he had a responsibility to help people bear their burdens not throw his upon them as well - if a man acted this way with his sons he would be a horrible father, the same is true of a spiritual father.

What hump?

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[–] konam 12 years ago

The way I see :

Have you noticed that in many moments of the movie it is said that the priest doesnt care for people, that he has no talent to be a pastor, that he is cold ?

At the same time, have you noticed how he is really interested in the case of Jonas?

These two things are oposite.

So, I believe that his interest is not on helping Jonas, but on discussing these thoughts that has been tormenting him for a long time. And as Jonas seem to be developing similar thoughts, he gathers that he could discuss them with him. Problem is, Jonas is weak. He didnt want to discuss those thoughts, he just needed someone to calm him.

So, what happens when you, in despair, needs someone to comfort you and finds someone that will push you to the edge?

I wouldnt go as far as saying the priest is responsible, though, each man holds the rheins to his own destiny.

------------
- He moves his lips when he reads. What does that tell you about him?

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[–] Hythlodaeus 12 years ago

Hey Konam,

I completely agree with you and that's what I think was the problem with the priest.

Sure Jonas wasn't strong - but that's exactly what the priest would have seen if he wasn't so selfish - he would have said to himself (as I've said at different times to myself) "I could talk to this person, open up to him and give him an honest assessment of how things look from my perspective - I think I've learned a few things. He seems to want to hear it - but then again, it seems like he is taking it much harder than I am, he is utterly without hope and if I use him by wrestling out my own doubts then he will go home and one way or another take out his depression and pain on his family - I need to encourage him, and be careful what I say - not lie to him but not let him fall into nihilistic despair"

And then go on and find someone who is more able to handle his questions rather than talk to Jonas about them.

"So, I believe that his interest is not on helping Jonas"

No, the priest is responsible because unlike most people they are a spiritual leader, they know that they hold people's lives in their hand - even if they've lost their faith that they hold their spiritual lives in their hands, they know they've got their physical lives in their hands.

Jonas was in his parish so there was some trust there, some responsibility - Jonas was essentially not just someone he'd met in a coffee shop somewhere - that would potentially be very different.

What hump?

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[–] The_Earl_Of_Kent 12 years ago

The conversation with Jonas was intended to be a "dream". He appears silently, standing in front of Tomas, as he wakens from a slumber, and the manner in which he disappears at the end of the scene is just as silent and dreamlike.
I guess, in a way, Tomas "needed" that encounter with Jonas.

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[–] Hythlodaeus 12 years ago

Well, that's certainly a more satisfying interpretation. d

What hump?

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[–] 12 years ago

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