During the father-daughter argument scene, after pops caught Hartley and Starr talking, Hartley said something about no man being good enough for her but him (pops). Pops had a very weird look on his face and immediately changed his attitude towards Hartely. Did this mean that there was something else going on with the two of them out there in the wilderness?
share[deleted]
You've got a point. Joshua Knudsen, for all his preaching and praying, probably did have an incestous streak. Whether Sam Peckinpah knew of such things or not is yet to be known.
shareI'm watching this right now on DVD. That was the first thought (incest) that came to my mind as well.
shareI think Peckinpah wanted to leave us with a similar impression. I didn't think of literal incest but certainly a father a bit too interested in his daughter isn't out of question.
If memory serves, Armstrong improvised slapping Hartley in that scene and so her reaction is real. At least that's what I recall from the Weddle biography.
"If you can’t say something good about someone, sit right here by me."
"I think Peckinpah wanted to leave us with a similar impression. I didn't think of literal incest but certainly a father a bit too interested in his daughter isn't out of question."
I tend to agree, the father seems to have a conflictual relationship to sexuality as religious people can - and may be why his wife could have been unfaithful. The girl doesn't seem to behave like sexually abused people.
I thought his demeanor changed because he immediately felt bad for striking her.
shareI thought it could have been incest, could have been an underlying sexual tension, or could have been the father not wanting to be alone. Lots of work to do and more so if there is only one to do it. If she leaves, who does the "woman's work?"
shareEither an undertone of incest or the actual behavior between him and his daughter is certainly implied when she accuses him of not finding any man good enough for her . . . except for himself. She catches herself at this horrible thought and he slaps her for it.
True, she does not act like a victim of familial sexual abuse but the way the scene unfolds, it is almost like "normal" frontier behavior for the father and daughter to have a history like this. That is what is so chilling about how the scene comes off. Whether or not this was intentional or just a perverted by-product of the Peckinpah style I cannot say.
*SPOILER ALERT*
Now having seen the finale, the incest is definitely important (whether in feeling or deed) because it seems the justification for why the father's death is not mourned. They notice he must be dead, and without even stopping to confirm it, they go through the final battle and outcome/aftermath without a backward glance. Even the daughter is not seen to shed a tear; she is concerned only with her beloved's well-being.
I think her lack of concern or grief over her fallen father was a mere omission since survival was the main objective at that point of the film. I know many want to jump on the idea of this overly pius man being an incestuous pervert but wasn't he absolutely right about Billy? Billy and his brothers were the kind of "dirt" any father would want his daughter to stay away from.
Somewhat revealing into this man's character is the bible quote on the head stone for his wife which is strange. Why would the word "harlot" be on a beloved woman's headstone?
That's what makes this film much deeper than than many realize. Steve Judd is the model for a decent moral man not Mr Knutson.
Yes, it's implied. However, given how the two of them behave I'm assuming that it wasn't something he actually acted upon. It's just that she knew that his jealousy wasn't natural. He had desires for her but I doubt he actually molested her, or she wouldn't have been so shocked by the depravity of the Hammond brothers.
"I'll book you. I'll book you on something. I'll find something in the book to book you on."
I just saw this scene and went, "Whoa! That's some heavy-duty incest subtext there!" Not to mention the way he freaked out over her being in a dress and his insisting on cutting her hair. Those are both red flags.
I disagree with those who say she doesn't act like an incest victim. She knows *something's* wrong with their relationship and resents it, but she's been raised in isolation and has no healthy measure by which to judge it. She just knows she needs to get out of there, so she does.
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I doubt he actually molested her, or she wouldn't have been so shocked by the depravity of the Hammond brothers.
It could be he dealt with his feelings by quoting the Bible and being extra strict with her, as well as insisting she dress and act like a boy.
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TheManInOil says > Yes, it's implied. However, given how the two of them behave I'm assuming that it wasn't something he actually acted upon. It's just that she knew that his jealousy wasn't natural.When I saw the movie last month on TCM, I missed the very beginning so I may have missed some clues. Still, I don't remember incest coming to mind in regards to Elsa and her father's relationship. Her father was overly strict and protective of her but I thought it was his religious beliefs and his desire to keep her safe given where they were living and the conditions that surrounded them. However, when I read the OP's and other comments here, I think maybe there's something to what they say.
He had desires for her but I doubt he actually molested her, or she wouldn't have been so shocked by the depravity of the Hammond brothers.I don't think her reaction to the Hammond brothers proves or disproves anything. She thought she would be starting a new life with her new husband but soon found out he wasn't who she thought he was. Her new husband was bad enough but each of his brothers seemed intent on taking their turn with her too. If she was running away from a bad situation at home with her father, realizing she was jumping from the frying pan into the fire would have been shocking and too much to bear.
It took me several viewings, but I also wonder if incest was what she implied when she said that about only him being good enough for her. The beatings and/or that was her reason for running away for the likes of Billy Hammond.
While the Knudsens obviously didn't have a normal father-daughter relationship, it's not clear to me whether he actually violated her or whether he was excessively controlling in reaction to her mother's infidelities (infidelities more than suggested by her grave header, which also makes us wonder how she died). But there Elsa was, stuck on an isolated farm with a disturbed old man at an age when hormones are raging, so she would naturally fall for the first half-way good-looking man to come sniffing around. Her powerful need to escape overwhelmed her underdeveloped critical faculties, so she found herself mixed up with some fellows whom Steve Judd would insult as "hillbilly trash". I'd say Elsa was repulsed by the Hammond's quasi-incestuous desires but even more shocked at her realization that her prince charming was nothing of the kind, and that she had jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire.