Would Tom have gotten Hallie if? - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962) Discussion

[–] lubin-freddy 12 years ago

As I wrote on another thread, Tom's killing Liberty is similar to Shane's killing Wilson. Both understood the logic of the Western Myth, in that "civilization" eventually will replace the freedom of the frontier. So while your question is certainly legitimate on a dramatic level, in terms of the ideology inherent in the genre there's no choice. Both sacrificed a certain kind of personal happiness, and opted for the lonliness, and freedom, of the open space.

But your point is well taken.

I want to shake every limb in the Garden of Eden
and make every lover the love of my life

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[–] 398 12 years ago

lubin-freddy

"logic of the Western Myth, in that 'civilization' eventually will replace the freedom of the frontier."

That is no myth. That is the progress which happened and which Frederick Jackson Turner commented upon in 1893.

While there are simularities between TMWSLV and Shane, I think the differences are far more significant.

Shane is a mysterious outsider who is not trusted. Tom is a popular member of the community and would have been easily elected as a territorial representative. Shane had no financial stake. He was a hired hand. Tom was a rancher. The woman in Shane was married and had a family. Shane could not have had her without allowing Joe to be killed. Tom could have married Hallie. Shane intervened by knocking Joe out and went in his place to face Wilson. Tom advised Ranse to run and vanished. Shane kept Joe from death. Tom arrived on the scene only after Liberty had already fired three shots. Ranse survived only because Liberty chose not to kill him. Tom's invervention would have otherwise been too late.

Shane killed Wilson in a fair fight. Tom shot Valance from ambush.

All this boils down to making Tom the anti-Shane. Shane was the outsider who heroically sacrificed himself for a community he was not a part of and for a future he would not share. Tom pointedly refused to put himself out for the community, leaving it up to the outsider--Ranse--to actually fight for a future that belonged to Tom as much or more than it did to Ranse.

No matter what happened in the shootout between Liberty and Ranse, Tom had already lost. Hallie would have held Ranse's death against him. If Ranse lucked out, Ranse, and not Tom, would have emerged the hero to Hallie.

*Link is a key character. He was not suited for town marshal and did not want or like the job. Why did he hold it? It seems because he was the only man in town trusted by both the Mexicans and the Anglos. Tom was a rancher, like the men who hired Valence. He seems to have been in the same position as Link. He could have been the bridge bringing the ranchers and the farmers together. He didn't even try.

**The author of Shane, Jack Schaefer, once wrote that Shane was a metaphor for all the soldiers in WWII who died for a better future they would never share.
In the novel there is a scene the morning after the gunfight in which Joe wants to quit, and Marian tells him that the two of them owe it to Shane to build the better future he fought for.

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[–] lubin-freddy 12 years ago

All, or at least most myths are BASED on history. But it takes on a life of its own, and that's the myth of the west, which is central to this film. The word used in the film is legend, but we're dealing with th myth.

There are huge differences between Shane and Tom, and I wouldn't use the comparison beyond this one point: that both killed off the last "threat" to the developing civilization (farms, families, work, democracy, religion, law), for much the same reasons, and then understood that they had no place in the new world, they had saved.

I want to shake every limb in the Garden of Eden
and make every lover the love of my life

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[–] 398 12 years ago

lubin-freddy

Okay.

I see where you are coming from.

The "myth of the west" you write of includes much more than just gunslinging. I recently watched Westward the Women, and the coming of women to the west was seen as part, a critical part, of the coming of civilization.

I have read, and I don't remember if it is from you, that there was no place in the new west for the old gunfighters. Certainly there is no place in the new west for Wilson or Valance. There probably is no place for Shane.

I see Tom differently. He could have had a place in the new west with Hallie as a rancher. What makes him tragic is that he held on to outdated values and didn't step up to the plate when he had the chance and so history passed him by.

He is not a man who could not change with the times or escape his past. He was a man who simply did not change with the times.

That makes him a more tragic figure than Shane.

I really like this movie.

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[–] lubin-freddy 12 years ago

Yes, Tom was a bit different, in that he lived on the outskirts of the community, interacted with it, but kept his distance. Tom, like perhaps Ethan Edwards, had a choice. So I agree with you that he is a more tragic hero than Shane. Ford is a much more complex filmmaker than Stevens.

The idea of the men of the old west having no place in the new west is a theme presented beautifully in The Wild Bunch as well.

I want to shake every limb in the Garden of Eden
and make every lover the love of my life

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[–] move_over_fatso 10 years ago

Don't take this personally, but I've noticed almost everyone here has this deluded notion about what is "justice" and what was the law at the time period.

Townspeople, back in the 1880's, did not agonize over what constituted a "self-defense" shooting, and what was "murder/manslaughter" by an "honest" citizen. The "glasses wearing" folk may have, but you have to realize that Shinbone was a territory, and Rance was the first lawyer to put down stakes in the town.

Basically, the rules were simple. If one was in town, you weren't supposed to shoot anyone. If one shot a person in self-defense, one was usually exonerated with an upstanding witness. If there was no witness, then it boiled down to what the majority of the townfolk felt about the shooter. As the saying goes, "Valance was a man who needed killing." No townsman would have given a rat's ass whether Tom shot him from an alley with his rifle, or face to face. It may have been a fine point to consider at the saloon or barbershop, but no one would have lifted a finger against Tom or did against Valance.

Its only after the place becomes a state, that you have Federal Marshalls & a circuit court determining whether to prosecute a person for murder, and getting into legalese. The law was more like "The Life & Times of Judge Roy Bean" than the liberal TMWSLV. One flaw about old movies of this period (1940's and onward) is that they are basically structured as propaganda pieces for the general public. Its only people in the modern era (post 1940's) that agonize over "unlawful" killings, and instill the notion that killing a bad person is somehow an immoral act.

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[–] lubin-freddy 10 years ago

I agree with m-o-f in that there was, in the OLD west, a difference between LAW and JUSTICE. Shane, in the George Stevens movie I referred to above, acts not out of a sense of the law (a three day ride away), but out of a sense of justice.

That is why Ranse is shown bringing the law books, something that impresses Tom no more than it does Liberty. Both realize that it's a threat to their way of life, something that Tom eventually accepts. As does Hallie, in her choice of Ranse (the future) over Tom (the past).

Listen to the river sing sweet songs
to rock my soul

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[–] mach0017-1 10 years ago

I believe that even by today's rules Tom would not have been found guilty of murdering Liberty, or even of manslaughter; knowing that Ranse was essentially a sitting duck- already wounded, having to shoot with his "off" hand...

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[–] annlevtex 10 years ago

That's what I didn't get about this movie. Rance's moral queasiness struck me as unrealistic. No matter that he was from "The East": people had guns there too, or at least were familiar with them. The majority of the country was still rural and agricultural, in pretty much every state. Killing a violent, dangerous man who was basically an immediate threat would not be considered immoral except by a Quaker or an extreme pacifist. Technically illegal? Maybe, but not immoral. Not to most people.

So IMO Rance did not represent "Eastern" values or "civilization." He was just particularly averse to violence. He believed the pen had more might than the sword, and all that. But his position was extreme to a fault.

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[–] cwente2 10 years ago

"But his position was extreme to a fault."

Not entirely. He did go out to meet Valance . . . with a gun in his hand. I doubt it was intended as a peace offering.

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[–] waynemeyers 12 years ago

No, she was in love with Ranse. You could tell from the beginning when she first lays eyes on him, she felt something. There are other parts where you catch her admiring Ranse, how she looked up to him.

To state the cliche, she loved Tom, but was in love with Ranse. The only way she would have ended up with Tom, is if Ranse was killed.

If Ranse ran away from Liberty, she would have been happy just to have him alive.

I think Ranse loved her too, though he wasn't as open about it visually. If Tom had killed Liberty openly, and Ranse stayed to pursue law, she still would have ended up with him. Even when their romance is just beginning, Ranse is heading to Washington where Hallie must go with him, since they ended up married.

Poor Tom, the only way he would have had Hallie would have been to let Ranse die, but that wasn't in his nature.

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[–] cmap2 11 years ago

That's just completely wrong. Aside from there being a plethora of hints throughout the film (e.g., Hallie taking the ride out to Tom's old ranch, putting the desert rose on the casket, the look on her face in the final scene), Ford explicitly stated that Tom was Hallie's love and that he wanted to make it clear to the audience that she had never gotten over him.

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[–] vinidici 11 years ago

I dunno, cmap2; I think she would have done all that even if she were merely fond of him. Most women exerience dissapointment in their foible-ridden men (like Ranse Stottard) but they remain at their side regardless. I happen to think, as others here do, that Hallie would have chosen Ranse in every contingency mentioned in this thread and I agree with the others that the scenario of her marrying Tom would have occurred only if Ranse had been killed in the duel with Valance.

Okay folks, show's over, nothing to see here!

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[–] cmap2 10 years ago

I think she would have done all that even if she were merely fond of him. Most women exerience dissapointment in their foible-ridden men (like Ranse Stottard) but they remain at their side regardless. I happen to think, as others here do, that Hallie would have chosen Ranse in every contingency mentioned in this thread and I agree with the others that the scenario of her marrying Tom would have occurred only if Ranse had been killed in the duel with Valance.

That's great, but it's not really open to interpretation when John Ford is on the record stating Tom was Hallie's true love.

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[–] ChuckHestonFan 10 years ago

That's great, but it's not really open to interpretation when John Ford is on the record stating Tom was Hallie's true love.

When and where did he state this?

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[–] jmichael3387 10 years ago

"That's great, but it's not really open to interpretation when John Ford is on the record stating Tom was Hallie's true love."

I don't know if John Ford said this or not. Nor do I care. This is my favorite movie of all time. John Wayne is my favorite actor of all time. And I think I can interpret what ended-up on the screen. And that is:

Clearly Hallie was in love with Ranse, and what happened to Liberty had nothing to do with it. Even if Ranse would have run like a chicken, she would have still loved him. She loved Tom also...but not in the same way as Ranse. Ranse is the one she wanted to be with. No regrets. Of course MUCH sadness, sentimentality, and yes love for Tom. But still no regrets.

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[–] mdonln 9 years ago

cmap2 says > That's just completely wrong. Aside from there being a plethora of hints throughout the film (e.g., Hallie taking the ride out to Tom's old ranch, putting the desert rose on the casket, the look on her face in the final scene), Ford explicitly stated that Tom was Hallie's love and that he wanted to make it clear to the audience that she had never gotten over him.

It's clear she still felt something for him upon hearing of his death and when they return for his funeral but I couldn't really read her reaction. During the flashback scenes, it looked like whatever feelings she may have had for Tom, she was more attracted to Ranse soon after meeting him. He had so much more to offer her.

If Ford wanted us to thing that Tom had Hallie's love, he should have done a much better job showing that. I got the impression she liked Tom but I wasn't sensing love. Had Ranse not come along she may have finally decided to go for Tom but I never felt what she had for him was love. Then when Ranse started filling her head with all the ideas and created in her and everyone a yearning for more, it was curtains for poor Tom.

In present day when she's with Ranse she seems to have an air of discontent. Is it because she realized at some point she'd made a mistake? Ranse seems a lot more into his work and being a politician, shmoozing and talking to people, than romancing her. They have been married a while but there seems to be a coldness between them. Perhaps it's because she's been living with a legend instead of a man. Continuing the myth has helped him in his work but they both seem to be troubled by having to carry a lie for so long.

Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

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[–] grumpy_otter 12 years ago

I noticed that Tom never courted Hallie or asked her to marry him. He was sweet to her and had plans, but he never asked HER. I think if he had asked, she could have been his a long time ago.

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[–] lferrigon-1 11 years ago

In the firs scene where the preacher asks if he is ready to propose to Hallie and Tom says "Don't rush me" I wanted him to reply, "Don't rush you? What are you waiting for? She is not to wait on you forever."

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[–] goodthingsjohn 11 years ago

I think he was waiting until he got the extra room in his house finished so he could give her a better environment to live in, prove to her he's worth it, flatter her with it, etc. Just wanted to be prepared and look favorable to Hallie and her parents. Then Ranse came along and he got jealous and felt Ranse was ruining things...both for his plans with Hallie and for his way of life.

Liberalism is a mental illness, and it's the only one that's contagious.

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[–] jmichael3387 11 years ago

This is my favorite movie of all time. So I think I can answer the big question. Someone on here already stated it perfectly: Hallie loved Tom, but she was IN love with Ranse. It didn't matter to her whether Ranse killed Liberty, or if he would have gotten scared and ran away. That didn't matter to her, because she loved him for who he was.

I mean seriously, that's totally clear and obvious. Of course she loved Tom too. And who knows, she might have even married him if Ranse wasn't in the picture. But she didn't have that really-in-love thing going on with him.

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[–] mhk76 10 years ago

Well, Tom was also a slacker. He had the skill and the support of community, but still he didn't do anything about Liberty. He didn't want to be in charge and take the responsibility. Why would a woman choose a man like that? Ranse had the backbone to face Liberty even when he knew, that he didn't have a chance against him in a gunfight. In the end, it is quite irrelevant who actually did the shooting, when Ranse was the one who got it done. He was the better man: The man who gets things done.

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[–] lubin-freddy 10 years ago

I'll restate my case: Hallie's choice was, within the Fordian universe of the film, ideological. I don't mean that SHE herself was thinking along those lines, but symbolically, it was so. She was choosing the future, over the past; civilization over frontier; law over "western justice"; farming and irrigation over wilderness. There was, of course, a sense of nostalgia over what was lost, but that's a central point of the film. Ford, and the audience, feel that same sense.

Listen to the river sing sweet songs
to rock my soul

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[–] kodax2 10 years ago

Just to agree with the earlier post, Tom killing Valance is symbolically the same as Shane killing Wilson. Both do it knowing it means banishment. Thematically, the two movies are very similar.

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[–] 398 10 years ago

"Tom killing Valance is symbolically the same as Shane killing Wilson. Both do it knowing it means banishment."

I have to disagree. Tom killing Valance, if in a fair fight, did not mean banishment. After all, everyone thought Ranse killed Valance and he was elected Governor.

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[–] lubin-freddy 10 years ago

Both are men who have a stake in the Old West, even if they both realize that their times have past (in Shane it's spoken explicitly). Both exist on the outskirts of Civilization, even if Tom has more contact with it. Both, by killing the last real threat to the Future, have sealed their own fate to live outside it. In Shane it's "no more guns in the valley", which means, no place for him. In The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance Tom gives up on the one great symbol of the future: the woman. He understands that, which is why he burns down the house he was building for her.

So both are, in a symbolic sense at least, fated to live outside the boundaries of the New West.

Listen to the river sing sweet songs
to rock my soul

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[–] molypocho 8 years ago

Tom is a tragic figure, but I see it in a slightly different way. If Tom had come out that night to face Liberty rather than Ranse, and killed him openly, Ranse would have gone on with his law career and Tom would have won Hallie.

But Tom wanted to show up Ranse to Hallie as a coward. He thought Ranse would run. When he didn't, Tom lost his gamble and Hallie.

I agree completely. And to take the analysis a bit further, there's the final scene in which Ranse questions Hallie about whether she placed the desert rose on Tom's coffin. It's great because a visible tension between the married couple is brought into sharp focus.

After finishing the movie I reasoned that Tom shot Liberty Valance, and Ranse got the girl, but perhaps the inverse holds more truth:

Ranse became The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, but Tom won Hallie's heart through his sacrifice.

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[–] waltereckland 8 years ago

I also interpret the movie as Tom being the unsung hero. Most of the movie is a flashback told from Ranse's point of view. This flashback is framed by the straightforward present tense in which we see that Hallie still loves Tom. Her relationship with her husband seems a little distant and cool. Ranse clearly shows much more interest in his career than he does in Hallie.

In the flashback Tom is the one who clearly loves Hallie and is willing to sacrifice everything for her. Ranse's great love is the law, not Hallie. Ranse does not pursue Hallie, but he is willing to risk everything in the pursuit of law and order. Ranse's gamble pays off big time as he gets to live out his dream and he wins the girl. But Ranse is only able to do this through Tom's sacrificing himself for Hallie. Tom gambles that the pilgrim will fold like a house of cards. Tom loses his bet and ends up killing not only Liberty but also all his hopes and dreams.

Hallie is the key to the story. If there is no love interest here then Tom will end up being the usual John Wayne superhero and Ranse will end up being a martyr for law and order. Hallie makes the story much more interesting and much more melancholy. That is because the best man ends up sacrificing himself for love while the lesser man goes on to fame and fortune.

I see Ranse as an opportunist with a great amount of courage and a huge amount of luck. I think Ranse tells Hallie the truth about the shootout but not right away. As Ranse grows more successful he and Hallie drift apart and Hallie longs to go home. Home is where her heart is. Home is where Tom is.

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