The movie's message is ruined


The great melodramatic twist of this movie is having Hallie wind up tearing the guts out of Tom Doniphen's heart and I think that this deep but certainly unknowing betrayal, that is if you can believe that Hallie had no clue about how strongly Tom felt about her, is so powerful that it overshadows the movie's main message about the violence of the old west giving way to modern civilization. Anyway, that is how the conclusion has always come across to me. I'd love to see a comedic skit where the ghost of Tom Doniphen appears and tells Hallie Stoddard what she can do with her Cactus Rose. I just can't get past her breaking Tom's heart.

reply

I understand where you're coming from, but it doesn't "overshadow" the "main message about the old west giving way to modern civilization", it "reinforces" it. Same as it's dramatized in Ferber's "Cimarron", it's the female who gradually moves the West from "ya better start packin' a hand gun" toward courts of law and civilization. Halley's choice of Rance over Tom is a parallel but personal way of illustrating the transformation and who was behind it. Fits right in, I think, and makes the message even more powerful (as you suggest by using the word "overshadows") than the bigger "events" do by themselves. . . Anyway, that's my take on it.

reply

Yep, I agree; a human parallel to the overall theme.

reply

"Everyone KNEW" that Hallie was Tom's girl. But just because everyone knew it, it isn't necessarily so. Tom loves her. But does Hallie love him? Consider that she has a pool of men to choose from and that Tom is single, handsome, and wealthy. She is independant, practical, and intelligent. She cares for Tom, and knows if she marries Tom, her life will continue to be what it already is. She'll still be cooking and serving food to a housefull of men who will come to work for Tom as he builds his business. With Ranse, she knows she'll move away. She'll only be cooking and cleaning for one man and that one day perhaps she won't have to do the cooking and cleaning.

I never got the impression that she was head over heels in love with Tom or Ranse. I did get the impression that she cared for Ranse the way one cares for a small child or a half-starved kitten.
I got the impression that she likes and respects Tom. She knows that Tom doesn't need her. (She is wrong, but that's what she knows.) I think that she has been living with regret ever since.

At what point does Hallie find out that Ranse did not shoot Liberty?

reply

50 points, sir.
Right on.

reply

Hallie was choosing the future over the past. It's the same reason why Marian, in Shane knows she can't leave with Shane, and stays with her husband Joe. The woman chooses the future - laws and civilization - over the freedom of symbolized in the West of the past.

We could have high times
if you'll abide

reply

2 things you are missing.

One her feelings for Ranse are spontaneous, she can't control them. She never tells Tom she doesn't love him in fact she does based on how tore up she was over his death. But she never plotted to get in bed with Ranse in fact they have no relationship at all, just shared feelings. It's Tom that notices how she feels about Ranse she never rejects him. You act as if she was screwing Ranse behind Tom's back. In reality it was Tom who rejects her.

Secondly Tom had every opportunity to pop the question. He was so certain he wanted to marry Halle that he was building the addition onto the house but never got around to asking her. Once he asked and she accepted her feelings for Ranse would not have mattered she would have committed her life to Tom.

What is disappointing to me and many viewers i'm sure is the way Tom this strong successful confident man completely deflated himself after the events that occurred. You would think that he would be stronger than that and pick up and move on but the image we get of Tom is that he spent the rest of his life poor and lonely while Ranse became one of the most powerful men in the country just because of these events.

reply

"What is disappointing to me .... just because of these events."

Your last paragraph is what's "disappointing" to me. Tom's "deflation", as you call it, is occasioned by his "unselfish" love for Halley, including a cold-blooded murder ultimately done to her benefit. Rance's contrasting successes are occasioned by "the same thing". That's the irony and the heart of the story. . . Follow the cactus roses.

reply

I'm not so sure that Tom was so devastated by Hallie's rejection that he spent the next 25 years depressed and alone. He may have been very unhappy about Hallie but he didn't seem the type of person to do that.

We don't know what happened during those 25 years. He could have married and his wife predeceased him, or this could have happened with a couple of wives. They could have been childless, or their children died, or their only son was on a Navy ship when Tom died and couldn't make it home. We just don't know.

And perhaps he withdrew from the life or the town and was 'forgotten' because he spent his time taking care of his sick wife, or just didn't care as much about going into town as he got older, or had an accident or disease 10 or 15 years after Hallie left and gradually had fewer visitors.

These are also possible scenarios. Ignoring the fact that this is a work of fiction and these aren't real people, we just don't know what would have happened to Tom during the 'missing' 25 years.

reply

I would agree that the most universal message of the movie is overshadowed but I think it was John Wayne's great acting that caused the distortion. His raw, stark heartbreak was too disturbing to get past. I can't watch the movie again because he makes me cry every time. And I rarely cry watching a movie.

reply

PretoriaDz: I grew up on all the John Wayne movies they used to air on the UHF stations. Always liked Wayne; still thought more of his movies and his performances than not were mediocre / pedestrian or worse, but still entertaining; but when he was good, he was DAMNED good! I don't think ANYBODY could have out acted him in this picture (nor in, especially, THE SEARCHERS.) I honestly can't see how any other actor would have made a better Tom Doniphon (or Ethan Edwards.) Wayne delivered all the goods to be expected of his role as Tom and there's just no way anyone else in the could have improved on it IMHO.

Okay folks, show's over, nothing to see here!

reply

As I mentioned above, Tom was giving Hallie to Ranse, understanding very well the direction of the New West, in which he had no part. That's why he's shown as dead in the beginning, with no one remembering him. This is a trait of the Western Hero, a basic understanding of the forces of history. Again, as I wrote before, it's similar to Shane's leaving at the end, allowing Marian to stay with Joe.

We could have high times
if you'll abide

reply

The movie's message isn't ruined by Hallie's "betrayal" of Tom in favor of Rance, it is rather made through it.

Ford wasn't simply trying to validate the course of history or the march of civilization's progress. He sees Hallie's choice of Rance over Tom as inevitable. The future must win out, it's simply the way the world works, but he wants us to realize that it's not a simple case of what's new is better, we must trade in the old and when we do there is something we lose. That's what Ford wants us to do. Reflect on what we lose. To not simply forget what came before. Progress may lead to growth and security, but we gain it at the cost of freedom and innocence. The film doesn't moralize and say "this is the way things should be", it simply shows us the way things are.

That Tom essentially forces his of Hallie (and the world in which he exists) by shooting Valance for her sake makes him a tragic figure, but it also gives him depth and nobility. He sacrifices himself so that she may grow up in a world fit for her. That is a gift greater than any Rance can bestow.

reply

Tom's killing Liberty is similar to Shane's killing Wilson.

I want to shake every limb in the Garden of Eden
and make every lover the love of my life

reply

As a woman, this is what I see. I think she probably loved Tom. But the difference I see in the relationship between Tom and Rance is that Tom treated her as a pretty girl whom he wanted to marry, but he spoke down to her. Rance treated her as an equal. Tom really loved her and it broke his heart, but to be an independent woman in those times and be with a man that treated you as an equal... I can see the draw in that. You can't choose who you love.

reply

I don't really see it that way at all. I don't think Halley was interested in "independence" the way we look at it today (post-feminist activism, or some sense of "equality" with men). I think, quite simply, she wanted to see "a real rose". Additionally, she was impressed with Rance's education (he taught her to read), his dedication to a more civilized way of solving problems (not thru gunfire), and the courage to risk his life for an ideal (her tender caring of him after the showdown).

In the end -- she had, no doubt, learned to read, seen a real rose and civilization up close. But, she may have recognized on her return and with the unappreciated loss of Tom that the values of a small Western town vs. Eastern manipulation and compromise (political deal-making, etc.) meant as much, or more, to her as did her original desire to escape its overwhelm. The solid and more natural certainties of home; a cactus rose (that was Tom to her); and the old West weren't all bad after experiencing the ambiguities and distances of the busier, wordier life; a real rose; and a vision of what the new West might actually be. Our origins are important and "new" and "change" aren't always an improvement when it comes to personal happiness. A lesson for us all -- men as well as women? Anyway, I think that's what Ford had in mind.

Btw, she loved both men but for different reasons -- which is why Ford needed stars of equal stature to play them.

reply

I'm so glad you said this, because this is exactly how I feel, too. I'm kind of disappointed that so many opinions on this board seem to be that she has no agency or decisions for her own life. How exactly did Doniphon "sacrifice" anything for her? What could he have offered her that Stoddard couldn't have?

Doniphon got in the way, in my opinion. She was obviously happy that Stoddard stayed behind to fight Liberty; she said as much when she was cleaning his wound. Now it's like Doniphon is saying, "Nope! He's not so manly after all! He couldn't even shoot Liberty Valance when he was standing right in front of him - I had to do it."

But Ranse taught her to read. They actually had a relationship that was built on something more solid than just being pretty when she's mad.

There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly west

reply

I'd like to chime in a little.
TMWSLV (long title !) has always been one of my absolute favorite films.
I see Tom as being so confident he likely never courted Hallie properly. He probably joked and teased her, tried what he thought was charm, but she isn't a girl (no one seems very young here), and she seems fed up with her surroundings.

When Ranse shows up, he's a completely different sort of person, smart, polite, helpful, willing to give rather than take.
He sincerely and respectfully has affection for Hallie, while Tom doesn't know how to show that. Tom amuses himself by paying attention to her, and likely doesn't realize how much he's invested his emotions with her.

In the end, I think she realizes how much Tom loved her, and he was a great man considering the milieu. It has to be humbling and touching when someone like Hallie realizes how much someone like Tom loved her and she felt she needed to make a different decision. (I always hope some of my old gfs remember me fondly even if they wouldn't admit it, but I'll never know.)

reply

Hence his comment that she’s cute when mad — twice.
She is just a pretty (and feisty) girl to him.

reply