Most disturbing scene ...


I love the movie, a great cast and the best scenery shots ever since "Lawrence of Arabia", some action, some humour, and a plot that spans from the early settlers to the coming of the railroad and the end of the "Wild West".

The only scene I find a little disturbing is when Spencer Tracy delivers the final lines, and they show aerial shots of the urban sprawl of modern cities, motorways, monotonous midwest corn fields up to the horizon ... it is like an anticlimax to the movie with all the beautiful landscapes of the Old West, that are now gone forever, and it made me a little sad.

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I understand a lot of people didn't like those last shots, especially the strip mine. I believe that segment was edited out in some showings of the movie.

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They showed what the land had become, from primitive wilderness to economic colossus. Personally, I didn't find them disturbing at all. I liked the contrast, and applauded the progress.

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At the time, given that environmental sensibilities were not a big issue, the audiences probably felt the same way.

But I`d still say, once you savoured the marvelous landscape shots of the movie seeing the scenery reduced to skyscrapers and monotonous corn-fields, it leaves a slightly bitter aftertaste.

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When they used to show this movie on the ABC Sunday Night Movie in the early seventies, that whole sequence was cut out, and there was a jarring cut...a jarring cut in the MUSIC...from the family in their Arizona wagon to the final painting of the Indians and "The End." It was clear something was missing, but what?

I believe that it was only with the coming of video and Turner Classic Movies was that final sequence restored, from the good(the shot past the Golden Gate bridge) to the less good(those freeways filled with cars.)

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As much as the original ending is modern (and unlikeable to some), it's important to see the versions the filmmakers originally made.

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Let's do a spin on this and suggest scenes that could have conveyed the progress without showing the freeways or the strip mine. These would be scenes that would be available when the movie was made.

For example:

1) Increase the shots of farm lands
2) Fly over a large train depot or follow a long freight train to show the moving of goods.
3) Show the Hoover Dam more close up
4) Show Mount Rushmore

I'd like to see some modern (c 1961) Ohio as a lot of the action took place there.

It's too bad the Gateway Arch in St. Louis wasn't there in 1961. Have a shot flying through that.

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I really like your idea of the long freight train! You're very creative and have thought about this well. Are you in film?

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I did major in Film at San Diego State University, but don't use it that much. I was inspired by the train scenes in the movie. We should see what the Iron Horse was doing now (ie 1961).

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aaf709... I too like your idea. A fresh modern perspective to the end of the film.

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it is like an anticlimax to the movie with all the beautiful landscapes of the Old West, that are now gone forever, and it made me a little sad.

It was not meant to be an anti - climax. The shots of then contemporary American show the results of such people that we see through out the film.

"I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not".

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Yes, but for as much as they accomplished, watching that I still have the feeling I'd rather have lived in the Old West.

"It's big and pretty now all right, and I helped build it. But... wouldn't it be nice to tear it down and start all over again?" --- An Old Timer.

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I used to think this way, but really sit down and objectively think it over for 10 minutes, think about your daily life and what you would be without. They are only portrayed as great times in movies and perhaps romanticized in literature a bit. Get out hiking and camping more if you don't already, and imagine living that way without everything invented recently. Hey nobody is stopping you from moving up north, plenty of 'frontier land' up there still, of course the weather kind of sucks.

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Rushmore is as bad as freeways and strip mines.

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So . . . what's wrong with freeways and strip mines? And, ah, there are lots of places in those sculptures for birds to nest -- aren't there?

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I found the scenes with Richard Widmark disturbing as well. He lied to the Indians, stole their land and then they stampeded buffalo into a town, killing many innocent lives. I felt sad for the Indians as well as the townsfolk but Widmark showed no regrets.

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Yes, I recall ABC editerd-out that end scene with the dizzying helicopter view over The Stack of the LA Freeways. I* didn't mind the ending at all. I found the most disturbing scene the end of the Buffalo Stampede scene, where a tot is crying for his dead mother while Richard Widmark shows no emotion and proclaims that it is nothing but a new life.

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Amen to that, shulma2002. That was a sad scene. Also, I can say that the ending montage was thankfully left out in the re-release to theaters that I saw around 1970. It just ended right after the scene with the Rawlings Family Singers.

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But I`d still say, once you savoured the marvelous landscape shots of the movie seeing the scenery reduced to skyscrapers and monotonous corn-fields, it leaves a slightly bitter aftertaste.


I can see why one might feel that way, but I think that the contemporary images are perfectly in keeping with the film's tone and ideological thrust. As I have written elsewhere on this board, How the West Was Won represents the cinematic apotheosis of Manifest Destiny and the traditional, triumphalist narrative of Western settlement, marked by the victory of 'civilization' over the 'wilderness.'

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To RenlyStannis: I LOVE this epic film, and was thrilled when they finally restored it and digitally removed the seams (due to the Cinerama process), but I agree about the "slightly bitter aftertaste." I like the way you phrased that, because it isn't as if it terribly mars the film; it simply doesn't leave the most inspiring images in the viewer's mind.

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Progress sucks, but I'd rather have hot running water and cable TV than deal with buffalo stampedes and Injun attacks. Pick your poison.

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[deleted]

I've experienced that scene both ways, when I saw it in 1962 and again in the 80's and recently. 1962 was at the end of a whole cultural era that had its own way of seeing things and its own coded symbolism to express what it saw. In 1962 the aerial shot of the L.A. freeway interchange was a thrilling statement of " Look how far we've come!" The freeway was the symbol of everything modern and the accomplishments of the culture. You must remember that at that optimistic time no one really knew anything about pollution or the environment and technology was seen as absolutely good.

When home video came out in the 80's How the West was won was a must re-see for me. I had forgotten the ending and when it came on I cringed with embarrassment over the poorly chosen imagery and was somewhere between laughing and crying.

When I saw it again recently I was glad the ending was kept for the dvd because it says something about the time in which it was made and there is enough historical distance to understand the ideas of that particular time.

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Well said - if only more posters on any board on IMDb would put things in perspective/context when judging films. A reason I enjoy films from earlier times is how they can be a snapshot of the particular time in history that they were made in- nevermind whatever the film's subject is.

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The ending looks like footage from "This is Cinerama" (1952).


www.zazzle.com/suburban_arts

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Yes, it is.

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I agree with aaf709, much better than the ending we got which really depresses me now because environmental issues we have to deal with now especially with Hurricane Sandy that came by last year. For me the ending represents environmental ignorance for the sake of money which was probably the case in the early 60s.

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Yeah the ending seen now does contain some depressing images (strip mines, giant cloverleaf freeway overpasses etc) which can easily be seen representing the downside of "progress". But I think aaf709's suggestions of a closeup of Hoover Dam and a flyby of Mount Rushmore - both marvelous engineering and artistic triumphs- could also and have been judged by some as having their downsides as well. The US Govt had no legal right to allow Native American land (as well as land sacred I believe to the Sioux) to be literally carved up without their input. The dam made it possible to build great cities in the desert southwest where no cities should have been built. It's a fools errand. Re: Cadillac Desert, by Marc Reisner.

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@turtletommy

Good point.

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Sorry, tommy, but I find those shots of strip mining and cloverleaf expressways -- inspiring. I like the bounty of those harvested lands. And, just like you perhaps, have used that bounty plenty of times. In this limited regard at least, I sympathize with Henry Drummond in "Inherit the Wind" -- "Gentlemen, progress has never been a bargain. You've got to pay for it. Sometimes I think there's a man behind a counter who says, 'All right, you can have a telephone; but you'll have to give up privacy, the charm of distance." .... "Mister, you may conquer the air; but the birds will lose their wonder, and the clouds will smell of gasoline!"

Human life is, among many other things, a great balance (even to include those balances struck before the doctor who delivered us and the mother who raised us smacked us on our reluctant but deserving backsides!).

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That's a great quote from Inherit the Wind. It's a doubled-edged sword cwente, and sure there are benefits to us all even the complainers who reap the benefits of "progress". But I still certainly don't find a shot of a strip mine or freeway inspiring. I guess the dreamer in me thinks that as we "progress" we improve or better things but that's not always the case in this "great balance". Power sources that don't pollute and leave great scars on the land, and weren't we promised freeways in the sky by now like in the Jetsons? (-:

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A thoughtful response, as expected.

Remember, though, one man's dream may be another man's nightmare. And, the "progress" you mention must be from something to something better. Most first somethings aren't the pristine somethings we've come to expect in our more comfortable, contemporary settings. There are many things we have today we would not have at all were it not for someone else's earlier dreams of building "freeways" to facilitate commerce, or opening "strip mines" to provide more affordable critical minerals for all kinds of things. And, isn't that what "How the West Was Won" is all about, after all? It took a filthy steam engine to pave the way for cleaner diesel and electric locomotives, and more than a few burned-up houses (sometimes with their inhabitants inside) to prove the concept of in-home electricity, including a brighter light by which to read about new and even better discoveries -- not to mention the warmth to allow us to concentrate on what we're reading.

Personally I don't remember what someone may or may not have "promised" me about the when of our having "highways in the sky", and I've been around for 66 years now! . . . Sadly, I never watched "The Jetsons", so never got their take on the subject.

Btw, I understand most of those strip mining "scars" have healed quite well in the last few years. A bulldozer and a four-lane highway ain't no match for mother nature -- no matter what "60 minutes" and its competitors may (endlessly) contend.

Best

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Come on, magazines like Popular Mechanics were always giving glimpses of a future with folks buzzing to work in their personal skycraft or zipping out to Moonbase Alpha for a weekend with the Mrs. Really, it was just around the corner...

The Jetsons cartoon featured life in a dazzling hi-tech future in a space city- but apparently a future that still featured traffic jams and rush hours up there, lol.

Anyway, seeing an open-pit or strip mine doesn't exactly have me jumping for joy and yelling Progress! but I realize it can be seen as a stage in the march (in fits and starts) towards hopefully a "better" future. Which hopefully won't be another man's nightmare hehe.

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I understand your feelings. I see things through a different lens it seems.

One man's dreams are always some other man's nightmare. We can hope, however, that the angels of the former will benefit a greater number of people than will the demons of the latter.

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"I understand most of those strip mining "scars" have healed quite well in the last few years. A bulldozer and a four-lane highway ain't no match for mother nature -- no matter what "60 minutes" and its competitors may (endlessly) contend."

Yah, pollution and toxic waste are just figments of liberal tree huggers' imaginations. Un-remediated strip and pit mines are rarely ecologically 'better' than their pristine states were. They become waste dumps of polluted acidic water and leached toxic metals. What happens when the aquifiers being depleted for use in irrigate farming go dry?

Progress isn't progress when there is no net profit, things being better after than before. What is 'better' is a personal evaluation involving interests, and those interests may and often do conflict between various individuals and groups, as you note.

What decides 'better' in terms of the public good? Is that a really valid legal concept when and if defined by fiat of the powerful? When costs can be and are shifted on to others, which pollution usually does. Many practices, even more so those in the past, are examples of cost shifting and privatized profit - public cost.


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I've yet to experience the horrors you've described. Are they on-going and being ignored? Where I'm from (Kentucky), private money, local government, and mother nature have remedied most of them and in less time than it took to create them.

"What decides 'better' in terms of the public good?"

The "public good" is best served by an active, minimally restricted private sector (jobs, new products, competitively driven lower-cost products and services, etc.) as is evidenced by the standard of living in the U.S. as compared to the standards of living in societies in which a centralized ruling elite sets the standards and manages the dynamics (Eg., N. Korea, France, Cuba, Iran, etc.).

Btw, if by "the powerful" you mean privately owned business interests, I'd
hardly consider their power, even collectively, as having any real meaning in the making of policy today, unless, of course, they've accepted the bribes and agreed to join the ruling elite's media-backed team of autocrats.

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You've yey to experience the horrors of acid mine tailing leachings, heavy metal leaching into the groundwater, etc. ?

Well good for you. I guess the EPA was created without any need, nature did the remadiation (without the need for puny human intervention) and/or remediation was largely done without government intervention of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_mine_drainage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_Mining_Control_and_Reclamation_Act_of_1977
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_rehabilitation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Environmental_disasters_in_the_United_States

"as is evidenced by the standard of living in the U.S. as compared to the standards of living in societies in which a centralized ruling elite sets the standards and manages the dynamics"

A standard of living that's been going down ever since Reagan took over?

I'm sure those the rust belt agrees with that.

And there is no way besides a top-down centrally planned economy and a wide-open laissez-faire economy. Northern and Western Europe as just hell holes compared to the US. Hooray for those wonderful capitalists of the people's republic of china, with their outstanding work conditions and environmental stewardship. Or should it be hooray for the capitalists that made money by shifting jobs and reduced costs by moving jobs to china, nevermind the immense damage down to much of the working and middle classes.

" you mean privately owned business interests, I'd
hardly consider their power, even collectively, as having any real meaning in the making of policy today"

LOL!

Who do you think is setting the agenda for the Asian trade talks and *beep* like increased immigration of skilled workers and/or export of skilled jobs, reduced oversight of the financial sector.......the liberals?!?

Let's see Kentucky coal mine operators pay the true and full costs of their operations and remit the agreed profit percentages they make off of public land.


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That's all very interesting and very confusing:

1) I don't recall saying there should be no EPA. There should. It has a role. You seem to be setting up a strawman. I'm saying politically motivated 'one size fits all' solutions are, generally, poor solutions and, often, lead to a kind of tyranny resulting in worsening rather than improving conditions for the average citizen. That which can be done at a lower level of government should be done there and not elevated to a higher level (further from the influence and voices of the people directly affected). A uniquely American precept going all the way back to Montesquieu.

2) "A standard of living that's been going down ever since Reagan took over?"
If you mean, ever since Reagan left office, in a manner of speaking -- yes. And, I would agree "those in the rust belt" would most certainly "agree with that" (unemployment now vs. then).

3) "And there is no way besides a top-down centrally planned economy and a wide open laissez-faire economy." I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

4) "Northern and Western Europe as just hell holes compared to the U.S." You have a flair for hyperbole and exaggeration. . . But, yup, we're better off here (or, "were" shall we say).

5) There are no true capitalists in China -- because there is no freedom. See Milton Friedman's Capitalism and Freedom. There are, and have often been in the past, activities permitted by communist governments to take temporary advantage of the natural benefits of supply and demand (Eg., the Soviet's five-year plans). A parallel exists today in the U.S. -- Obama's plan to grant select exemptions to Obamacare to friends and supporters, contrary to the rule of law, equal protection, and the Constitution's explicit injunctions -- for political convenience. In short, conveniences needed in any centrally planned, government-run economy to keep it from imploding. Remember, when freedom can be granted or denied by a government (and not seen as an "inalienable right") there is no freedom. A slave master can, at times, be generous with his slave . . . when it suits him.

6) If the interests of the business community are "all powerful", why isn't Romney in the White House? LOL.

7) Why should American business intersts not have influence in Asian, or any other, trade talks? And, immigration policy is ultimately decided by the political class you seem to be so fond of, which is why we have droves of unskilled labor pouring in from the south in lieu of skilled labor pouring in from the east. Aren't those politicians the ones being influenced by those corrupt ol' capitalists you abhore? What happened to "just say no"? Answer -- it can be found nowhere in that mecca of central planning you prefer.

8) And who's to decide what are and are not "the true and full costs of their..." (the Kentucky coal mine operators) "... operations" -- incorruptable Massachusettes Congressmen, Hillary Clinton's fund-raisers, or you?

Best

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Oh my Gawd Snaggletooth,
1
You are rigth. . The whole world is doomed! Without the EPA we would be living in a post apocylyptic atomic waste ridden hell. Thank god for DEMOCRATS and the EPA. . (Wasn't the EPA started under Nixon?)

But you are right, we must distroy everything to have any chance to live.. .ANARCHYis the only soluton!

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Your points are basically valid, but I would note, some people knew about pollution and the environment. Not many, to be sure, but Rachel Carson published "Silent Spring" in 1962, won a huge readership, and launched the modern environmental movement. Norman Mailer, the Beats, and many others were lambasting the impact of technology.

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Your points are basically valid, but I would note, some people knew about pollution and the environment. Not many, to be sure, but Rachel Carson published "Silent Spring" in 1962, won a huge readership, and launched the modern environmental movement. Norman Mailer, the Beats, and many others were lambasting the impact of technology.

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Thank you. But, apparently some who "knew" didn't know enough. Rachel Carson's book now being considered fundamentally . . . wrong. And, how many millions of people have died as a result of laws passed based on her bogus suppositions and predictions?

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Very few, if any.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/09/silent_spring_turns_50_biographer_william_souder_clears_up_myths_about_rachel_carson_.html



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I'm afraid you're wrong. Thousands have died as a result of the wholesale banning of DDT. slate.com? Oh, please.

In 1970, the National Academty of Sciences Press stated that "In little more than two decades, DDT has prevented 500 million human deaths due to malaria, that would otherwise have been inevitable."

Of course, you know the bird shell thickness and "decreased" bird population data she used was entirely bogus. Bird populations (especially predatory birds - her claimed biggest victims) actually "increased" during the time of DDT's heaviest usage.

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Thousands have died as a result of the wholesale banning of DDT.


Sort of like that song by Joni Mitchell, "Paved Paradise"--besides what's the death of a 'few millions of wogs' compared to having birds & bees around?
No doubt they expect all of us to burn cow dung for heat & light. Protecting the environment is fine but I don't think they think things out very well.





Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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They have re-edited the ending, removing the strip mine and replacing it with a shot of Spencer Tracy's grave.

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Don't worry. At the rate the US is going it will all be back to the way it was.

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The point is that what we have now (represented by the highways) was built on the backs of our forefathers (the wagon trail).

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My favorite scene, showing the progress the country went through and promise for the future.

To me it's a pity that's now seen as "bad."

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I didn't find the imagery "disturbing" at all in context, and it provided a necessary epilogue to the story. The overarching theme of the movie was the taming of the western wilderness. It followed the process of westward expansion during the entire 19th century. The story is called "How the West Was Won", not "How We Managed to Eek Out a Tenuous Existence in the Wilderness." You can't just end this story with a family singing a song bumping along in a horse-drawn wagon lazily making its way on a dirt path through an unspoiled, undeveloped landscape. Where is the "progress" in that?

Could the filmmakers have found a more artful way to hint at the coming modernization within the story instead of tacking on the modern scenes? Perhaps, but the film up until that point had hardly relied on subtlety. So failing that, could the aerial images at least have been more carefully selected for their beauty? No doubt. Strip mines? Logging operations? Factory farms? Hardly inspiring today. But I think a great deal of the problems people have with it today are that the images are too outdated. The film is, lest we forget, over half a century old.

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