MovieChat Forums > Seppuku (1964) Discussion > How I wished it would end

How I wished it would end


I realize the ending is brilliant as it is. It shows how evil corrupts - in the end even the main character succumbs to hate and violence, and as he dies so does everything that is honorable and good.

However I feel another good ending would be him just going through with the harakiri. Think about it - everyone wants and expect him to get his revenge. The movie was brilliantly building up to the big showdown - as he draws his sword he does it for the entire audience that has a bloodthirst at this point. If he instead just kills himself and our thirst for blood goes unfullfilled, the message would be really powerful: the violence must end.

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He would have, but they wouldn't let him. They force him to die a shameful death and then cover it up. His is a moral victory, but there's no condemnation of the corrupt system that wronged him, save in the eyes of the audience.

And during his rampage he literally shows the Iyi clan's traditions as being empty (when he dashes the suit of armor on the ground).

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Not all kinds of violence. I think robbers need to be violently restrained and put in prison.

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In my ideal ending he would have killed every one of those mutha *beep* then peacefully committed Harakiri.

I am Senor Velasco, I drink my milk with tabasco

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That ending would still not solve the issue of finding him a suitable second.

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It's interesting to me that you are most concerned with the actions of the samurai seeking vengeance. Yes, after finishing the film, I too kinda wished the samurai's story had ended more dynamically. But then I went back and re-watched the first ten minutes. There's that voice-over narration opening the movie. It's the feudal lord recording the daily history of his house. This same voice-over ends the film. And that's when I realized that the story hinges on the actions and decisions of the feudal lord, not the samurai.

Just look into the feudal lord's face when he is receiving the samurai. It shows pity and reluctance. He is not a bad man. He wants to do the right thing, he again and again asks the samurai to reconsider his request to commit harakiri in the house's courtyard. He is not a cruel man, he is simply too weak to flout the rule's of the society he lives in. He objects to the samurai's story, not because he cannot empathize with the plight of those facing injustice, but because he knows the samurai's story will tarnish his house's reputation. The true story is an almost sacrilegious tale in respect to Japanese culture and society, and therefore the feudal lord knows he must murder the samurai in order to save face.

Viewed from this perspective, from the perspective of a weak man bending to the will of society, Harakiri lacks nothing in potency.

My rating: 10

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the story hinges on the actions and decisions of the feudal lord, not the samurai

Partly, I would say. Motome had been treated in the most cruel manner. And the justification for that treatment was bushido, or "martial valor" as the translation says.

Hanshiro came to prove that this justification was ill-founded and based on a lie. That the counselor and his people were deceiving themselves when thinking that they actually lived by those standards they unscrupulously applied to others.

Yes, the counselor wasn't without empathy. But he did believe in that lie. While in the end, with the proof delivered, he turned into a full-on hypocrite. A moment nicely emphasized with that final closeup on his face.

It's a great ending. Profoundly true ringing statement about power, politics and the manipulative abuse of ethical codes in particular.

Where the real story ultimately even gets wiped from, or never committed to, the history books. Casting a huge question mark over our understanding that our recorded history was at least somewhat adequately reflecting what actually happened.

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Yes, the counselor wasn't without empathy. But he did believe in that lie. While in the end, with the proof delivered, he turned into a full-on hypocrite. A moment nicely emphasized with that final closeup on his face.


He knew he was lying and it caused him immense internal conflict to go forward with that lie. I wouldn't say he believes in the lie, I would say he believes the lie is his only possible line of action. Just to be clear: he has not fooled himself into believing his own lie. His final choice causes him immense regret and misery. That's where the movie's most potent dramatic tension lies.

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He knew he was lying

Could be. But I'm leaning towards the other interpretation of his character.

Here's the reasoning. The proof involved taking the top knots of those three guys and them not performing seppuku in consequence, as they should have. Where Hanshiro said that it was comparatively easy to overwhelm them because their skill had never been tested in battle.

Those were times of peace, you know, as it's been repeatedly said. And for quite a while, too, which is why ronin were roaming around. But then how could the counselor know that his guys would fail in both respects if they had never been tested?

So that's how I read the story. That group at that compound didn't ever really have to prove that they were able to live up to the code they valued that high. That's why they could deceive themselves. And it took somebody like Hanshiro to challenge them and debunk that self-deception.

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So that's how I read the story. That group at that compound didn't ever really have to prove that they were able to live up to the code they valued that high. That's why they could deceive themselves. And it took somebody like Hanshiro to challenge them and debunk that self-deception.


I agree.

All I want to be made clear is that the feudal lord is in full cognitive possession of the Truth at the end of the film, and his choice to maintain the lie causes him considerable emotional distress. In other words, I believe a viewer who allows themselves to identify with the feudal lord will come away experiencing the film on its deepest level.

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in full cognitive possession of the Truth at the end of the film

Of course. We probably misunderstood each other because that's clearly the point of his character's development. Him morphing into a full-scale hypocritical politician resp. servant to the powerful. Who from thence on would continue to promote the same slogans as before while being fully aware of them being lies.

My assumption was that he - the counselor - had been lied to, too, from the outset. He actually appeared to mean it when communing with the red armor suit. And seemed to believe in what he's been told about the "martial valor" of the house, presumably by his superiors.

But effectively they all appeared to be rookies. Illustrated by that second of Motome, Hikokuro, who kept bragging about which school he came from instead of which battles he fought in.

Except maybe the older guy sitting next to the counselor. He was the one that suggested to give Motome a few coins and send him away. Because he probably knew already, by own experience, how the textbook theory about bushido and reality differed.

And yeah, the way that actor - Rentaro Mikuni - conveyed emotional reactions was totally gripping. During both sequences, when Motome performed seppuku and when Hanshiro battled the crowd in the yard, while he sat in that room turned toward its entrance.

There's a moment where he made a motion to stand up, like he had made up his mind and decided to intervene, just to sit down again and turn away from the entrance as foot steps could be heard approaching. To conceal his distress towards his subordinates.

A very intense moment, of realization and inner struggle. Where he appeared to understand the scale of the atrocity they had committed against Motome. And that he had to make a decision now, which path he was going to take.

Frankly, despite his occasional arrogance, I almost felt sorry for that guy in the end.

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> However I feel another good ending would be him just going through with the harakiri.

I agree, though it would have been still more satisfying if the ronin had been able to make his humiliation of the Iyi clan public so the counselor was unable to cover it up.

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