Spartans queer?


BS! Where is the proof?

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Prove they were straight.


"The value of an idea has nothing to do with the honesty of the man expressing it."--Oscar Wilde

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You cna't prove either way, they are dead.

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It's just as stupid to say none of the Spartans were queer as it would be to say all of them were--which I haven't seen yet on any of these boards. It doesn't need proof to say that some of them were. That's true of every society, every civilization and every tribe of which we know. Whether homosexuality was approved or not is a different question entirely.


"The value of an idea has nothing to do with the honesty of the man expressing it."--Oscar Wilde

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Well, that's the idea - we'll never know which individual Spartans were gay or bisexual, because none are recorded as such. We hear sometimes of paedophilia in Greek texts, but it's always seen as unlawful and discouraged, as opposed to chaste mentor-student pederasty.

As far as laws go, Xenophon, Plutarch, Claudius Aelianus and Maximus of Tyre all state that homosexuality and paedophilia was illegal under Lykurgian law, which the Spartans were notorious for following boldly.

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Male citizens of Sparta had one, and only one, career option: becoming a soldier. At 7 boys were taken from their families and enrolled in a military training school. As teenagers, each was paired with an older graduate of the school. The two were expected to become intimate, both emotionally and sexually. After graduation from the school, the new soldier would dissolve his official relationship with his older partner, so that he in turn could mentor one of the trainees.
A Spartan soldier was also required to marry a woman for the purpose of producing more citizens. Such marriages often were more political than romantic in nature, and many citizens kept up long-term relationships with another man as well. Keep in mind that a soldier might be away on campaign with his male lover for months, or even years, at a time.
Every soldier was given an allotment of land to provide him enough income to support himself. He didn't work the land, but had slaves and non-citizens to work for him. Many of the slaves were Heliots, a conquered people in the southern Peloponese.
Homosexual relationships in Sparta did not carry the same stigma that they do in our culture. Homosexuality did not imply weakness, femininity, immorality, or anything else that would be perceived as negative. And the Spartans were not the only Greeks to view things in this manner. Either the Thebans or Athenians (I can't remember which) formed an elite military corps of 150 pairs of homosexual lovers; it was expected that an individual would fight better if he did so alongside his lover.
So were they "queer"? You bet. And a description of them as such would not have provided offense.
If you think I'm making all of this up check out the book "The Spartans" by Paul Cartledge.

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Biggest bunch of *beep* I've ever read.

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You think that only because you haven't truly looked into the matter. As I said, don't trust me, read Paul Cartledge's book (or any other history book about ancient Sparta).

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[deleted]

First of all, I'm not gay. But I don't believe that being gay would justify you bashing my face in. Secondly, I'm not attempting to justify homosexuality by pointing to the well-established historical fact that the ancient Greeks regularly engaged in it. Thirdly, if you really want to know more about the writer, then read his damn books.
Here's another "insulting" historical fact for you. Contemporary Romans referred to that well-known warrior and sexual profligate Julius Caesar as "every woman's man and every man's woman." Seems as if he enjoyed both sides of the aisle too. Now, don't call me names in an attempt to prove me wrong. Get out a book and look it up.

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Secondly, I'm not attempting to justify homosexuality by pointing to the well-established historical fact that the ancient Greeks regularly engaged in it.


How is it well established? Seems like you've only been reading bad translations or books written by homosexuals themselves. I'm not sure of Paul Carteledge's sexual preference, but I know that he has been known to distort history, even as the world's supposed "leading scholar" on the Spartans. Actually, he's quite a bad historian, from what I've read - and he often doesn't back up his claims.

Contemporary Romans referred to that well-known warrior and sexual profligate Julius Caesar as "every woman's man and every man's woman." Seems as if he enjoyed both sides of the aisle too.


Okay. We were talking about the 5th century BC Greeks, not the 1st century BC Romans. Completely off the topic, sir.

Get out a book and look it up.


You might be well off doing that, too.

As I stated in a post made a couple months ago, no ancient source claims the Spartans practiced homosexuality or physical pederasty to... any degree, whatsoever. The only times it's ever mentioned is jokingly, by their rivals the Athenians. Obviously somebody got confused and thought this was historical, because it's contradictory to the actual historical pieces we have.

In short: Spartans weren't gay, and Greeks called other Greeks "gay" as insults, or more likely "kinaidos" - the all round Ancient Greek word for homosexuals that meant "he who provokes shame". "Homosexual" isn't an Ancient Greek word, mind - in case you were going to come up with that as an answer. Origin: mid 19th century.

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From Plutarch's "Lycurgus"

"By the time they [Spartan boys] were come to this age there was not any of the more hopeful boys who had not a [male] lover to bear him company."

"Their lovers and favourers, too, had a share in the young boy's honour or disgrace; and there goes a story that one of them was fined by the magistrate, because the lad whom he loved cried out effeminately as he was fighting. And though this sort of love was so approved among them . . . yet rivalry did not exist, and if several men's fancies met in one person, it was rather the beginning of an intimate firendship, whilst they all jointly conspired to render the object of their affection as accomplished as possible."

From Plutarch's "Pelopidas"

"Gorgidas . . . first formed the Sacred Band of three hundred chosen men . . . it was composed of young men attached to each other by personal affection . . . for men of the same tribe or family little value one another when dangers press; but a band cemented by frienship grounded upon love is never to be broken, and invincible; since the lovers, ashamed to be base in sight of their beloved, and the beloved before their lovers, willingly rush into danger for the relief of one another."

From Thucydides "The Peloponnesian War"

"Indeed, the daring action of Aristogiton and Harmodius was undertaken in consequence of a love affair . . . .Harmodius was then in the flower of youthful beauty, and Aristogiton, a citizen in the middle rank of life, was his lover and possessed him."

The first quote pertains to Sparta, the second to Thebes, and the third to Athens.

Julius Caesar is not off topic, as the topic in this instance is homosexuality among powerful men. Sir.

You denigrate Paul Cartledge without citing any evidence for your claims. How has he distorted history? Have you read any of his books? Or are you merely repeating a claim made by another person?

I think we'll have to disagree about this. But what ever your stance, I hope you can find a way to rid yourself of such hatred and fear.

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Oh, I've read Cartledge's "The Spartans", but as I borrowed it I can't give a specific example of his unsourced statements, but there were a few in for example, the Dienekes biography, I think. I may be wrong, but in any case one author should not be the single voice of reason in one topic.

As for all of your post - did you know 'eros' does not necessarily mean sexual love? There is no specification to homosexual desires in any of those quotes. Take a look at the following quotes from
Xenophon (Lakedaimonian Constitution, II. 13.), Plutarch (Ancient Customs of the Spartans, 7. 237 - c.), Claudius Aelianus ('Various History' III, 12'), Maximus of Tyre ("Declamations" 20.e.) and also Aesop's fable of Zeus and Aeschyne, all of which refer to a sexual desire between men negatively.

This isn't my stance, don't come to conclusions like that. I'm completely pro-homosexuality. We're just talking about history.

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I'm in complete agreement with jkerr8 and do not understand navajoknows antipathy towards Paul Cartledge. He seems to keep popping up in threads all over this site to denigrate the man on absolutely no evidence.

Amusingly he doesn't like "The Spartans" but couldn't even run to buying a copy. Borrowed it and now can't remember specifically what he doesn't agree with.

Homosexuality was practised widely in Sparta but they had a completely different attitude to it than we have today. Go out and find out about it yourself. Cartledge cites numerous sources and alternative historians in the bibliographies of his books on Sparta and Thermopylae. He repeats in those books his assertion that the Spartans in the agoge viewed these homosexual relationships as necessary in the development of their warriors.

As I have commented elsewhere he is widely regarded, in Greece, as the leading expert on Sparta and holds many honours bestowed on him by his Greek peers. I really think that if his claims were controversial or suspect then his fellow historians would be saying so.

Take your prejudices elsewhere.


"You elected? No, but i've been nominated"

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Did you even read the quotes I mentioned? I think contemporary sources are a little more useful than those written by some hack in the 20th century, right?

I borrowed The Spartans from a library and found Cartledge a boring writer. His book strikes me as an introduction to the field but he is certainly not the know-all of the topic. Generally people would agree with reading more than one source, you know?

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navajo, you are a fool. Describing Cartledge as a "hack" is ridiculous.

I suppose Einstein is a charlatan and Hawking a fraud?

Exactly what are your qualifications to come on here and talk crap? From another thread I believe you are 18 years old so haven't been to university yet?

How come your knowledge outweighs Cartledge? You might think he is a boring writer but he is an authority, peer acknowledged, on this subject. He has studied contemporary sources and drawn his own conclusions. Contemporary sources are very questionable and not to be taken as read. They need analysing and cross checking. Do you believe everything you read in todays newspapers?

I would imagine he knows Herodotus a bit better than you ever will. Its not my job to defend him, his academic record speaks for itself. How does yours stack up?

If you read Briant on the Persians you will find that he and Cartledge have both reached similar conclusions. I suppose Briant is a hack as well?



"You elected? No, but i've been nominated"

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I see you've been busy checking those quotes I sourced for you.

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Einstein is a charlatan


Well, he stole a lot from Pointcarré and never admitted it.

Hawking, seems legit.

But using Physics to comment on History seems...well...

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Navajo. Forgot to point this out to you. Plutarch - parallel lives.The life of Lycurgus.


17 When the boys reached this age, they were favoured with the society of lovers from among the reputable young men.

You mis read his lives of the Spartans. Or misunderstood what he was saying. You certainly cannot cite Plutarch as a source to support your dislike of Cartledge.

If I were you I would go back to school and study some more.




"You elected? No, but i've been nominated"

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'Eros' never directly meant a sexual love in ancient Greek. The term "Lover" was used differently to how it is used today. By your judgment, if an ancient Greek wrote "I love my mother", we should translate it as "I have sex with my mother".

Ignore any insults I may have made towards Cartledge and get to the core of my posts instead.

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Navajo. The core of your posts is a joke.

Have you discovered ancient writings that the experts (Cartledge) missed?

They have been assessed, evaluated, considered and accepted way beyond your expertise.

Stop posting on here and go and get peer approval at a university. Sad boy.

Anyone fancy a grown up discussion on the subject? I'll start it.

The Spartans were as accepting of homosexuality as we are of hetero.

Discuss.


"You elected? No, but i've been nominated"

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All you're doing now is resorting to name calling and insults. You're essentially blind to any other source and you haven't bothered looking behind the means Cartledge got his information in the first place.

I never said I'm better than Cartledge. He is for the most part a fine scholar on the matter and I acknowledge this. However, in this particular aspect of Spartan lifestyle, he is mostly wrong.

Cartledge graduated at Oxford, where the original theories and mistranslations of original Greek works were made. Read up on the Oxford Uranians lead by Walter Pater to get an idea of how this affects the subject. This originated in the 19th century. We are now in the 21st century and people still think Ancient Greece was chock full of gays. Were there gays in Ancient Greece? Of course! Homosexuality is completely natural. But in no way was homosexuality ever encouraged in Sparta. You're confusing it with pederasty, of which the Spartans practiced a chaste version.

Please read the sources I posted written by Plutarch, Xenophon, Claudius Aelianus, Maximus of Tyre and to a lesser extent, Aesop. Make up your own mind with how to interpret them, rather than relying completely on Cartledge.

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You have already mis-interpreted Plutarch. You have a dislike of Cartledge that is bordering on the excessive and completely ignore the point that Cartledge is peer reviewed whereas you can make any claim that suits you.

Pointless discussion. We can agree to disagree.

"You elected? No, but i've been nominated"

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You have already mis-interpreted Plutarch.


How? Where? What about the other authors I mentioned?

This is now a commonly accepted view that Cartledge is incorrect about his statements regarding Spartan homosexuality. I'm not bashing Cartledge, and if I were I wouldn't be the only person that does it.

Read some other books.

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So why argue with him? He's showing the trait that all ignorant people show - the unlearned assumptions of his modern day culture. Probably a fundamentalist to boot. These people are either woefully stupid about history, or deliberate redactionists to further their own agenda. It's historical fact that Alexander was gay, or at least bisexual, and to this day idiots want to argue about it. Dumb scripts that have Spartans calling the Athenians decadent because homosexuality is a part of life in ancient Greece is like having the pot call the kettle black. There will be no convincing them, because they idolize heroes instead of understanding who they really were. This is no more true anywhere than here in America, where our misconceptions about our founding fathers are legion.

And it was the Theban Sacred Band who were married to each other. And there is another term; "Spartanize." Maybe our little uneducated fundie should look that one up as well. ;)

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Oh, honestly now. I'm a liberal atheist female who has many gay friends. I don't know why this is even worth bothering with, I posted my sources months ago and yet you all go and say "No, that's not true! Everyone knows that!". Well, 'everyone knows' Cleopatra was a beautiful queen of Egyptian descent, when fact seems to show that she was a hook nosed, overweight Greek. 'Everyone knows' William Wallace wore a kilt and was a free champion of the Scots, yet kilts didn't exist then and we barely know he even did. And 'everyone knows' Marco Polo got the idea of pasta from the Chinese, when in fact it was invented independently in the west. Don't take what you 'know' for granted, read the proper first hand sources.

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Also, eveyone knows that William Wallace was Gaelic, when at the time the Lowlanders thought of themselves, and were Anglic (they called their language Inglis, meaning English) and the only people who wore the kilt, at that time were Norse-Gaels, which leads me on to 'everyone knows' that kilts are based on Gaelic garments, when they are actually a Norse garment (O.N. kjilt).

You are correct-ish about pasta. The Italians used to eat it years before Marco Polo (some say the Etruscans had something similar, like they did with Pizza and others say it was taken to Italy be Arabs), though it must be said it could be inspired by food from China or anywhere else as contrary to popular belief there was already trade between east and west (AKA an Italian trades with an Arab, the Arab trades with an Iranian, he with an Indian and then the Idian with the Chinese, and vice versa)

However I do disagree with your views on Sparta as there was a history of, at least bisexuality in the ancient (including Greek) world, though I don't want to argue about it, as I have more pressing matters to attend.

"Nothings gonna change my world!"

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And it was the Theban Sacred Band who were married to each other.

Not only that the ONLY source on the alleged Theban Sacred Band homosexual pairings (Plutarch, SEVERAL CENTURIES AFTER the band ceased to exist) suggested the possibility that his own sources regarding the band could have been incorrect, they were married now?

*facepalm*

9/10 Americans believe that out of 10 people 1 American will always disagree with the other 9

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Please read the sources I posted written by Plutarch, Xenophon, Claudius Aelianus, Maximus of Tyre and to a lesser extent, Aesop. Make up your own mind with how to interpret them, rather than relying completely on Cartledge.

Why should anyone bother when they already have everything served on the silver plate by Cartledge and his turning-ancient-people-into-queers wizard mentor Kenneth Dover?

9/10 Americans believe that out of 10 people 1 American will always disagree with the other 9

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Much of what we know about Sparta's Culture comes from people who did not like them very much.

I'll be these people who think they where Gay, also believe they "Discarded" any children who where born deformed.

"Introduce a little Anarchy

Upset the Established order

And everything becomes Chaos"

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All you pro gay people on this board refuse to use any common sense. NO society ever looked upon homosexuality as a good thing and NO society ever institutionalised it like so many of you Greek/European haters claim.

You pro gay peoople simply HATE to see strong, proud ancient Europeans. Right away you have to smear them with the gay brush.

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[deleted]

Re Mike: I'm a strong proud European (Irish/Scottish born in London). And I'm gay. I love the company of other strong, proud etc etc. And I am one of those "pro-gay people" (even though I find the phrase a little incoherent, I get the drift). And my identity & integrity as a gay man is not something into which a metaphorical brush can be dipped in order to "smear" anyone else (and what on earth is a "gay brush" anyway?) I'm very proud to be gay simply because I love my partner of the past 22+ years so very much - were I straight I'd never have fallen in love with him, and that's an unendurable thought. I can't imagine being proud to be straight because I can't imagine being heterosexual in the first place. But it bears repeating that sexual desire is not really what defines gay people - unfortunately that 19th century neologism "homosexual" and its partner term "heterosexual" reduce human relationships to sexual encounters, when what distinguishes gay people from our straight brothers and sisters is the simple fact that we fall in love with members of our own gender. Always have. Always will. But good heavens, underneath some interesting historical debate, there's been some very unpleasant anti-gay hostility on this thread, quietly simmering away as it does in society as a whole. And "NO society ever looked upon homosexuality as a good thing" ?? Older societies have thought it rather "good" to burn heretics and persecute Jews. That doesn't make genocide and torture desirable, acceptable, or worth emulating, but rather as destructive thinking to carefully be shunned. And I'm not sure that any society looked (or looks) upon inter-racial love and desire as a "good" thing per se. But the signs are that, hopefully, that's changing. And in the slow movement of human social evolution, maybe the societies of the Western world are happily showing signs of being the first to look upon gay relationships as a "good" thing, spiritually, morally, emotionally. Which they are, as I can attest.

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Mike is just a homophobe and probably a ''white European'' racist.

There is nothing at all wrong with homosexuality. It is neither good nor bad, it just *is*, and it is the same with heterosexuality.

And I disagree with people claiming that the Spartans didn't practice a form of ''homosexuality''. That is modern machoist retconning of history. The Spartans practiced pederasty, common to Greek warriors, and it was anything but chased. The pederastic relationships that the Spartans engaged in, and were some what famous for. The idea that they only practiced ''chaste pederasty'' (a nonsense term) is based on the fact that they were not meant to have sexual relations with their charges, who were seen as their son; this didn't cancel out sexual pederast relationships that Aelian mentions when he states that all Spartan men were required to have a male lover.

If you are sick of the ''I love Jesus 100% signature'', copy and paste this into your profile!

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And I disagree with people claiming that the Spartans didn't practice a form of ''homosexuality''. That is modern machoist retconning of history.

"modern machoist retconning of history" Ever considered the possibility it's actually just a bunch of people not buying into silly theories for which there is no real proof of?
You can disagree all you want until the world ends, however, the fact remains that there is not even a shred of first hand evidence suggesting that they did practice any form of "homosexuality". The ONLY existing first hand evidence that comes directly from Sparta strongly opposes that notion.
The only "evidence" that your side of thought has is what non-Spartan writers, none of which has ever set foot into Sparta by the way, have wrote about them (mistranslated by contemporary historians intentionally or not, like Plutarch for example) and in most cases several centuries after Sparta ceased to exist. There are also the vases. Well, I'll take that vase showing Greek males having sex with one another and raise you a vase showing Greeks having sex with mythical creatures.

On the pure common sense scale it's not so hard to see which side wins this one.

9/10 Americans believe that out of 10 people 1 American will always disagree with the other 9

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I think the rumor got started when someone miswrote the word spear.

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