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On Second viewing not a ghost story at all...

posted 12 years ago by nutritionist
33 replies | jump to latest

On second viewing it seems clear that the children's behavior, knowing that they were orphaned, and were sexualized at a young age, and had a governess also die on them, and the gardener die, and were precocious as a result, it is clear that their behavior is understandable. It is clear that Flora expected Miles to get kicked out of school and reunite with her. It is clear that an experienced, stable, insightful, capable governess would have understood them.

Very early on Miss Giddens is hypersensitive to sounds, gets unhinged at the sound of birds, flies and wind and even laughter, when Miles rode the Horse at the beginning and she gets scared and hears birds shriek is the scene where her madness escalates, she cannot sleep well from the beginning, she is constantly frightened, she only sees the face of the man peering in the window after she sees a picture of him in the music box.

It also becomes clear with every scene that Miss Giddens is mentally unstable, as well as repressed, and she becomes increasingly unbalanced as she enters this new environment. Every scene shows how inappropriate her reactions to her surroundings, events, and the children are. Yet, All of the movie is from her point of view, so you are drawn to see it from her perspective, BUT if you look closely, you can see that the children's behavior is understandable but her reactions and thoughts and behavior is unhinged. The HOUSEKEEPER is a key figure because she keeps giving her information about Qint and the previous governess that fuels her fears and imagination. Her psychological makeup combined with the fact that the children are NOT innocent in the least drive her further and further over the edge of insanity. She needs them to be innocent as she has a compulsion to be herself and have all children be, and when they are not it feeds her madness

It is Miss Giddens who is the Child innocent- her psyche has become stuck in that mode due to her childhood where her father, a preacher demanded silence, as she told Flora. Indeed when Miles asks about the home she came from, she does not refer to her home she just left as an adult, but rather her childhood home. if you view the movie a second time you seeing Miss Giddens as the mad child innocent and the children as precocious victims of their horrid childhood.

If she had only gone to the uncle as she initially planned to tell him everything, then she would have been fired and all would have been well. But then she said they were possessed and "couldn't be let out of her sight" and only told the housekeeper, who, because of her position and station couldn't argue with Miss Giddens. The fact that she did not go to the vicor or the Uncle shows she was mad.

I do not believe there are any ghosts at all.

[–] Mr_Ectoplasma 9 years ago

I think the film is deliberately ambiguous, as other posters have said. I don't believe there's a consummate answer that will really tell the truth about the whole picture, and I think that was done intentionally. I tend to err on the side of "there were no ghosts," but I can see why other people think there were.

[–] alexferguson86 9 years ago

When I watched it I definitely took the opinion that it was all in her head. I think that the film loses its power if there really were ghosts, because as a purely psychological horror about madness it's much more real and frightening.

I think there are some clues that Miss Giddens is suffering from schizophrenia or a similar illness. Notice how she never seems to be genuinely afraid of the ghosts. This could be because, at some level, she knows that they're simply projections of her mind. Also notice how quickly she comes up with an elaborate conspiracy theory. People have criticised her quickness as being sloppy storytelling, but I think it's actually a clear indicator that she's making the whole thing up in her head.

I'm glad that there can be debate on this for both sides, however, since I'm not a huge fan of psychological thrillers with a clear cut meaning. Part of the reason I didn't like Rosemary's Baby, for example, is because the ending reveals that there really is a satanic cult, while I like the fact that The Innocents leaves open to interpretation whether there were any ghosts or not.

[–] maestro7PL 9 years ago

I don't understand why viewers think that it is ambiguous whether the children were possessed or Ms. Giddens was insane. The answer is that Miles was clearly possessed by Quint by the end. What other explanation does anyone have for Mile's immediate death? His death was not imagined by Giddens--it really happened.

[–] djsnafu23 8 years ago

I agree with you- I thin people focus on the little clues that do hint towards madness, but the end for me makes it unambiguous. As does the poem recital.
...

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Coz lifes too short to listen to Madlib

[–] jon-31 8 years ago

I don't understand why viewers think that it is ambiguous whether the children were possessed or Ms. Giddens was insane. The answer is that Miles was clearly possessed by Quint by the end. What other explanation does anyone have for Mile's immediate death? His death was not imagined by Giddens--it really happened.

Yes, but a child's death is not automatic proof of possession. Miss Giddens badgering him to "say the name" relentlessly could "scare him to death" too. (Within the limits of 19th-century understanding.) When he says "Peter Quint, you devil!" (he does this in the novella, I can't remember whether it's retained exactly in the movie), is he addressing Quint, or her, as the devil?

The ambiguity isn't some modern whim. It has been at the center of discussion of the story since it was written. There must be dozens of books dealing with it.

[–] flit-2 8 years ago

I just put this in another thread: As for Miles' death, remember what Mrs. Grose said about waking children up from a nightmare (foreshadowing)...

[–] Dan_Garten 8 years ago

Interesting.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] Prom_Queen_Carrie 8 years ago

While the film is intentionally ambiguous, as I was watching it, I leaned more towards the theory that Miss Giddens is mentally ill. What makes this film very cleverly done and interesting is that by showing everything from Miss Giddens' perspective, we approach the film as a standard ghost story, so the inevitable realization that this could just be a tale of woman going insane is all the more unsettling. In this sense, this is one of the best examples of how to use a narrative told from the perspective of one person in a horror film.

"Oh I went there, bought a house, moved in b*tch, and now I'm remodeling the kitchen."

[–] ScaryMary123 8 years ago

While the film is intentionally ambiguous, as I was watching it, I leaned more towards the theory that Miss Giddens is mentally ill. What makes this film very cleverly done and interesting is that by showing everything from Miss Giddens' perspective, we approach the film as a standard ghost story, so the inevitable realization that this could just be a tale of woman going insane is all the more unsettling. In this sense, this is one of the best examples of how to use a narrative told from the perspective of one person in a horror film.

Not EVERYTHING is shown from Miss Gidden's perspective. We see Quint's face at the french doors before she even notices him. It's true, Miss Gidden's was naive and a bit neurotic, but there's no way you can say all of this is in "her head," when we see the ghost before she did.

Could you explain how this fits in with your hypothesis?

[–] flit-2 8 years ago

She believed he would be there. I believe it'll be on TCM again Nov 10.

[–] jsk32870 7 years ago

Watch the beginning of the film again, specifically the first night Miss Giddens spends in Flora's room. There is a lot going on there which heavily indicates that something else is going on. Flora mentions that Miles will be coming home soon. How does she know that? Because Miles is a bad kid? Maybe, but that's incredibly good timing, as Miss Giddens receives a letter the very next day about Miles' expulsion (and Flora beams with a sinister grin as Miss Giddens reads that letter). When Miss Giddens speaks of heaven, and that's where the Lord takes souls after death, Flora questions this and comments something like 'maybe the Lord leaves some of the not-so-good people to walk about on earth.' Interesting comment from a little girl, unless perhaps she has some first-hand knowledge of some souls who haven't left. Immediately after this comment is made, we hear (and just not Miss Giddens, but Flora too), some animal sounds from outside. It sounded to me like a crow or a raven, Giddens thought it was an animal that was hurt. Regardless, Flora heard it too, it was not just Miss Giddens. And if it was a crow or raven, that's not random (see Edgar Allan Poe). Talking about dead souls walking the earth followed by raven calls has a serious supernatural feel to it. Additionally, when Giddens hears it and moves towards the window, Flora again has a sinister grin on her face. Almost like she's thinking 'it's starting!' When Miss Giddens comments on the sound, Flora responds that 'we must pretend we didn't hear it. That's what Ms. Grose always says.' OK so now we have more proof that Giddens is not the only one to 'hear things' - Ms. Grose herself has instructed the children to ignore strange things/sounds, lest it fuel the imagination.

Then the most damning section - they both go to sleep, only Miss Giddens is clearly restless and appears to be having a nightmare. Flora climbs out of bed, moves over near Miss Giddens' bed, and yet again we see the sinister smile, apparently taking pleasure in Miss Giddens' pain. Now perhaps Flora is just plain evil, and nothing supernatural is happening at that moment, but either way it's not in Miss Giddens' head - she's not even awake when we see Flora smile at her anguish. Then, Flora moves to the window and begins humming that haunting tune. Is she just bored in the middle of the night? Perhaps. Or is this a sort of conjuring? It appears to be the latter, as within seconds of her beginning to hum, she then stops, looks down in the garden, and smiles. It is clear she sees something, although we are not shown what it is she sees. The most logical conclusion is that she sees some manifestation of Miss Jessel, and again, Miss Giddens is not seeing anything of this, so this cannot be labeled 'all in her head.' No no no, something else is going on here.

[–] TheCaliforniaOp (78) 2 years ago

There’s also this: The uncle was very clear that he didn’t want to be disturbed by the children.