I can't understand why Karen thinks that her relationship with Joe will never be the same because of that scandal so she has to push him away. In a lifetime, most couples will have to overcome obstacles to make their relationship work. Joe has always shown loyalty and trust in Karen. Why can't she believe that they will get over it eventually?
You scare the sh*t out of people so they can't see how scared you are
As a warning for my response, I've never seen the movie, but I was in the play a year and a half ago, and I played Mary.
In any case, in the play, Karen and Joe have a heated talk. It starts out with Joe telling Karen his plans about them going away, moving, he getting a new job, and she starting anew. Karen makes the point that things aren't going to be the same, Joe insists that doesn't matter, and that they have to make sacrifices in order to make things work (like the point you were making).
Karen tells Joe that she knows he wants to ask a certain "question," and insists that he ask it now. He first denies knowing what she's talking about, and then finally, he comes out and asks her if there ever was anything between she and Martha. She reassures him that no, there never was.
His idea now is to take this information she's given him and run with it, and start over, like he had been saying. But Karen then beings a monologue reminding Joe that everything will be different and have a new meaning, now that this tragedy has happened and ruined their lives. "Yes, every word has a new meaning. Child, love, lawyer, judge, friend, room, woman - there are not many safe words anymore. That we can't move away from. A new place, a new room, won't fix that for us. Sick, high tragic people. That's what we'll be."
She continues and says that "I don't believe you could touch my arm without my wondering why you didn't kiss me, and I don't think you could kiss me without my wondering if you really wanted to. And I'd hate myself for it."
So ... basically ... Karen decided she couldn't be with Joe because the horrific things that had happened to them had hounded their relationship so much that it had, unconsciously, killed their trust and knowing that they truly loved each other.
Sorry that this was so long and if I repeated anything you knew from the movie. Just trying to get all my bases covered. :)
Thanks for your response. Things sound more understandable now.
Even though the movie is close to the play (which I haven't read) as you say, I couldn't really make sense out of it, probably because of the over-the-top acting(!)
"Puppy can't be a boyfriend substitute forever. They grow up."
Well, the trust is gone now, in a way... You know, if Joe truly believed such a thing, it shows a lack of faith in the relationship.
all the sky is is blue
all that blue is is one more colour now
But look at the times they were liing in. It was a time of hate for homosexuals, african americans, asians, you name it. Ofcourse Joe would think that maybe Karen and Martha perhaps did kiss or something.
shareI kind of think that Karen subconsiously loved Martha back.
shareMy interpretation was that even though she understood why Joe may have started to suspect it, she was still incredibly hurt by knowing their was a nagging doubt of distrust in his mind. She wasn’t mad and could understand why he wanted to know, but she was still just too upset by it to move on at that point.
shareI was trying to think of something to say but this response hit the nail on the head!! You said everything perfectly as to how I felt.
Also, it wasn't until after the movie and reading these messages, did I realize when Karen said "no you won't" to Joe saying "I'll be back" at the fireplace, it was her actually telling herself that she wouldn't accept him if and when he came back.
LOVED this movie. Just saw it on a new cable channel I ordered a few months ago. Silver Screen Classics (I live in Ontario, Canada)
I think Karen was a fool. If she was not homosexual, then why get rid of a really good man?
However, look at the family she would have been marrying into. She didn't like the aunt and hated the little monster cousin. Her life would not have been a bed or roses if she had to deal with them all the time. I don't think the aunt really liked Karen before all the lies started.
I'm with you on that one. She held him off for years, and found an excuse to drop him completely. She didn't know why herself until Martha put 2 and 2 together for her.
shareThe way I saw it was that she basically manipulated and forced him into asking her "the question" and then fell to pieces when he did. I thought she was a bit of a ninny in that scene. She really didn't give him any options to prove his faith in her. Just the fact that he still stuck around after the scandal broke should have been a testament to his feelings to her; much less his insistence that Martha accompany them when they blew town. I don't think he would have done that had he really thought it was true.
shareMost of the replies to your post seem to be defending this part of the film. But I'm with you. I don't see why it was necessary to push Joe away. I know one has to look at it through the lens of those times. But to me it seems understandable that Joe might have doubts as to there having never been a lesbian relationship. He stood by her like a perfect gentleman the whole time. He even lost his job, which he could have kept if he had been willing to sever his connection. If that's not love, what is? Yet he gets dumped. I don't accept that. That being said, it's one flaw in a film I liked very much.
shareI agree, she should have gone away with him. As already mentioned, she did force him to ask and he obviously felt ashamed as soon as he did. He even wanted her friend to go away with them so she could start again too, he acted decently throughout trying to look after them both.
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