MovieChat Forums > The Unforgiven (1960) Discussion > Identifying Audrey - SPOILER, maybe?

Identifying Audrey - SPOILER, maybe?


I must have missed something. At the hanging they wanted to undress Audrey to see if she was Indian. How would that have told them? And, what was she looking at in the mirror that told her?

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Zeb (Charlie's father) said that the darkness of her face could have been from the sun. They wanted to see if her body which would been protected from the sun was equally as dark.

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...and when she was looking in the mirror, she KNEW she was a 'red-hide Injun' (as the film phrased it)




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They wanted to check out the color of her nipples, and see whether her pubic hair extended up to (or near) her navel.

I'm not trying to be prurient here, just pointing out some racial differences. Also Indian men (and some women) have a patch of hair right in the small of their back, just below belt level.

Indians came from central Asia, of course-- so many other ethnic groups from that general area share these physical traits. The "test" they had in mind wouldn't really be conclusive, except that so many European Americans on the frontier were of northern ethnic extraction back then-- British, Scandinavians, Germans. Women from these groups would've had pink nipples rather than brown, and pubic hairlines a bikini would cover.

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Thank you!

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QUOTE

They wanted to check out the color of her nipples, and see whether her pubic hair extended up to (or near) her navel.

I'm not trying to be prurient here, just pointing out some racial differences. Also Indian men (and some women) have a patch of hair right in the small of their back, just below belt level.

Indians came from central Asia, of course-- so many other ethnic groups from that general area share these physical traits. The "test" they had in mind wouldn't really be conclusive, except that so many European Americans on the frontier were of northern ethnic extraction back then-- British, Scandinavians, Germans. Women from these groups would've had pink nipples rather than brown, and pubic hairlines a bikini would cover.


Interesting stuff poster.

That being said, I imagine they were just checking her skin color under her clothes.

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@foxfirebrand First of all, I have been in plenty of pubic school locker rooms with diverse women and i have NEVER seen a woman with public hair that reaches up to her navel nor have i seen any women with a patch of hair on their lower back. Sounds like the "monkey tails" southern white men told because they wanted white women to stay away from black men. Are you kidding around or being a "phoebe" and trying to make people think you have some type of inside information?

Also, I've seen a few of these movies with this "test" and it is so ridiculous. Even the darkest toned black person tans (the sun makes them darker) so in looking at a person that you cannot readily tell if their non-white from their exposed body parts - looking to see if they have tan lines is ridiculous. Of course they would be lighter under their clothes, not still dark as these movies suggest.

Although, this particular movie did say they expected her exposed areas to be darker under the sun, I've seen some with the assumption the "passing" person would have no tan lines because they don't tan.

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@foxfirebrand First of all, I have been in plenty of public school locker rooms with diverse women and i have NEVER seen a woman with public hair that reaches up to her navel nor have i seen any women with a patch of hair on their lower back. Sounds like the "monkey tails" southern white men told because they wanted white women to stay away from black men. Are you kidding around or being a "phoebe" and trying to make people think you have some type of inside information?


Um wow….I've never encountered this kind of stupidity before on imbd. It's called razors and waxing…most women tend to start shaving around the ages of 11-15 or so, or find some other alternative method of removing hair. This includes the bikini area, which would explain why the "different kinds of women" you've seen don't have any visible hair lol....

I also find it bizarre that you're trying to look for racism and stereotyping (ironically) this guy as some racist southern white guy.

Also, I've seen a few of these movies with this "test" and it is so ridiculous. Even the darkest toned black person tans (the sun makes them darker) so in looking at a person that you cannot readily tell if their non-white from their exposed body parts - looking to see if they have tan lines is ridiculous. Of course they would be lighter under their clothes, not still dark as these movies suggest.


But this would actually make a great deal of sense because nordic and germanic ethnicities have extremely obvious tan lines, it's a fact that they tend less melanin in their skin.

Although, this particular movie did say they expected her exposed areas to be darker under the sun, I've seen some with the assumption the "passing" person would have no tan lines because they don't tan.


Everyone tans, maybe a person with a darker skin tans less, but they still tan. Talk about offensive stereotypes.

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[deleted]

As a woman, I can tell you that long before girls would think of shaving, in jr. High locker rooms, nobody had pubic hair "going up to their navel".


As a woman also, I can tell you that typically in junior high many young girls do not need to shave or have enough hair at this point. Everyone goes through puberty at different ages, which is typically when young girls obtain body hair in certain places (armpits, pubic hair, even legs and arms)….but of course most of them end up with it in the obvious places. So I'm not entirely certain why this point is even relevant, even you seem to acknowledge that it's bullisht.

None of my other classmates had body hair well until high school.

For the record, most women have hair going up to their belly button…it might just not be visible to you. Especially very fair, light blond hair or dark thin hair. I personally have it on my stomach, nipples, and sometimes neck, I even get it on my stomach, toes, feet, fingers, and upper lip. I'm not ashamed, this is a part of being human. Body hair is there to protect you. Most people can't see that my toes, fingers, and upper lip have hair because it is so faint and so miniscule. However, that's not the case for all people. Usually it tends to be people who have extremely thick, dark body hair….because it's simply more visible

... So get off of your high horse. What are you some type of plastic doll? You don't have any body hair?

LMFAO!! Whatever Barbie...

And as a black woman, I can tell you that is a load of *beep* so yes, I'm calling the poster who said that racist.


As a white woman, I can tell you that your color has nothing to do with being right or wrong. So you can stop hiding behind it as a way to win the argument.

There's always one militant crusader on this board who has to search for racism everywhere.

And as a very light skinned black woman, I have "extreme" tan lines. And it's funny that you would consider my post stupid which contains first-hand knowledge of myself, family, and friends from childhood to puberty, but not the idiocy of his post which we can all see that I asked him to respond with where he got that "knowledge" and there has been silence.


If it contains a lot of knowledge about your own personal experience than it is by definition ignorant, narrow minded, and circumstantial information which has no relevance or academic merit to the argument.

My post had absolutely nothing to do with the OP at all and everything to do with your absurd claim about how women don't have body hair. Yes they do and they have a lot of it.

But if you want to talk about the OP….the OP was not saying that he necessarily believes that all of these ridiculous "methods" people used in the 1800s were true, just that it was how people went about identifying stereotypes. That's how I interpreted it, so I'm not sure why your brain went into racism mode. Is this like pre programmed in your or something? I don't get it...

I allowed him to respond without calling him a racist right off the bat because perhaps he knew ONE black female where he had seen such a phenomenon, in which case he assumed all black women were made this way.


He never said this, you're putting words in his mouth because you see racism everywhere you go. To the point, I might add, of being a racist yourself or at the very least extremely prejudiced. You know that there are tons of racist people in the northeast too? My dad is one of them, he regularly uses the word N*gg-r in dinner conversations. It's pretty sickening, but I've come to realize that some people are just idiots, regardless of what state they live in.

I've also not heard about supposed patch of hair on male Indians' backs but as I am not acquainted with many Native Americans, I cannot definitively comment on that.


The original poster is talking about how white settlers in the 1800s would have dealt with identifying a Native American (or other person of ethnicity). This isn't necessarily reflecting the OP's feelings on the matter, so why are you getting so defensive?

People just didn't understand science back in the 1800s, they had specific "methods" they used to identify people of other ethnicities such as nose size, forehead size, amount of body hair, whether it was patchy, how much of it there was. Even the shape of your lips was considered a racial physical feature. I'm not joking! People of the "mediterranean race" aka greeks, Italians, etc… were said to have "fleshy lips, dark thick, course swarthy hair, black eyes, dark skin"

So I don't have any problem believing that people in the 1800s would have some type of identifiable marker that they would use to understand who was a Native American.

The fact that you question me instead of the crazy information in his post says you're probably a racist too. How can you accept information in a post that brands an entire people with physical oddity yet attack my post as "stupid". Interesting and telling.


LOL this is hilarious. So basically you're saying, "because you don't blindly agree with my circumstantial personal experiences, that means you're a racist!!"

How dare you? I demand an apology for this slander of my character, I have said nothing of a racist manner in anyway. If you don't then I'm going to report your post as abuse. In fact, I should do it anyway regardless. You have absolutely no right to go around calling other people racist.

I questioned you because your response is completely over the top, baseless, and quite frankly and psychotic.

I can't even believe that the OP replied with a "thank you" instead of at least asking where this person got such crazy ideas.


Maybe if you responded like a rational human being instead of jumping down his throat like a psycho he might have considered it. But why should he? You've made up his mind for him, you're someone who is just going to take everything he says as racist. Why should he even acknowledge your post, let alone take you seriously. You just called someone you don't know, have never met, spoken to, or even seen a picture of, a f-king racist. I'm sorry but you have to see how ridiculous you're coming off as.

The only thing he got right is the color of the nipples although they are not always necessarily brown, but it is more common for them to be tan or brown on women of color (non-white).


Look if we really debate this, I am not white and you are not black. We're all different shades of the same color, we're all different tones. There is no black and there is no white. have you ever seen a black person in your entire life? I know I haven't….

The point the OP was trying to make is that people actually thought this way back then. This is how the rationalized. They thought that certain types of ethnicities were more swarthy, had more body hair, in fact some people believed that certain types of physical traits were associated with criminal behavior! Large noses, large craniums. What do you want me to say? The world sure sucked back then. You're pointing out racism in the wrong place my friend, that's all I'm trying to say by replying to your post. The OP is not a racist….and you're a sad little person if you take it that way.

Basically anyone who wasn't English was pretty much disgusting to them. That's what happens after centuries of inbreeding on one tiny island.

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Please do report my post so I can then report your post calling me "stupid."

Of course women have light almost unseeable hair all over, but the posts said black women had pubic hair that won't fit in a bikini bottom and other crazy stuff.

As to the OP, I never insinuated that he/she was anything other than willing to accept another poster's obvious propoganda as the absolute truth. I never called the OP racist.

I won't reply to all the other nonsense in your latesr post because it is ridiculous.

Waiting on you to report me cause I'd love to see how that plays out for you.

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Please do report my post so I can then report your post calling me "stupid."

No I called your post stupid, so IMDB pretty much won't do anything about that….good luck though lol. I have a rational reason to call your post stupid…because it is stupid.

Of course women have light almost unseeable hair all over, but the posts said black women had pubic hair that won't fit in a bikini bottom and other crazy stuff.


He never said anything of the sort….you're taking what you want out of this. Technically everyone starts out with hair that "won't fit in a bikini bottom" the difference is we shave it off when we get older. (or wax…why would anyone do this to themselves is beyond my comprehension.)

As to the OP, I never insinuated that he/she was anything other than willing to accept another poster's obvious propoganda as the absolute truth. I never called the OP racist.


Yes you did and you called me a racist too…for absolutely no reason. You want to talk about propaganda, go back and read your responses to me.

I won't reply to all the other nonsense in your latesr post because it is ridiculous.

Waiting on you to report me cause I'd love to see how that plays out for you.



Usually it plays out quite well because the posts I report are uncalled for, severely offensive, and psychotic personal attacks. I never report anything otherwise.

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I am going to make one last attempt at this, only because, from your response in one of the other threads for this movie, you seem like a reasonable person.

The person that i first responded to,was not the OP (whom i did not call racist), but rather somebody named foxfirebrand who did post stuff about non-whites and crazy stuff about where hair grows on ALL non-whites. Perhaps you have foxfirebrand blocked or something that you do not see his post since your post to me says I brought these things up out of nowhere.

As to my personal experience, I cite them just as you cite yours when it comes to this body hair thing. I have only seen 3 women that had hair thick enough to grow beyond a bikini line and that was growing toward the thighs, not toward the navel as foxfirebrand says. Everyone else, women relatives that i know are not shaving and who never even began the practice of shaving their legs (not that they didn't have hair on their legs but black culture did not assimilate leg shaving until the last 30-40 years) have no bushy hairs that "do not fit into a bikini line". Now, does that mean i know what the majority of every race's bikini line looks like naturally? Not absolutely, but i know the majority of black women were not shaving even their underarms back in the late '60's early '70's (my locker room years and it was a cultural thing). So having pubic hair "up to the navel" is completely made up by foxfirebrand.

Now, my original responses to you may have seemed unreasonable, but you basically went on the attack without having the full story (I'm guessing) of what I was responding to since you thought I would be denying fine body hair and calling the OP racist. I will not reiterate that argument here because, either you will take the time to unblock foxfirebrand so you can see his post (if that's what happened here), or you are one of those people that branded me a "cry racism everywhere" and if you believe that, despite our similar posts in the "kinda racist, kinda not" thread, then - whatEVER.

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A patch of hair in the small of their back? Mongoloids are supposed to have the least hair amongst races, Caucasians are the hairiest so I don't get it?

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I thought they were looking for a mark on her belly since the old man mentioned they found the baby girl with a Kiowa mark on her belly.

I knew she was looking for something in her room but didn't understand why she needed the mirror to do so. She didn't appear to be looking at her nipples as she could've seen them without the mirror's help. She should've been able to see her pubic area as well without the mirror...that scene just didn't make a lot of sense to me.

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Despite the false racial characteristics described above (someone with Asian characteristics has less hair not more, male Indians didn't even have beards), I don't think the plot was thought completely through.

Yes, when Hepburn looks in the mirror she "suddenly" sees something. How? What is she going to notice that she never noticed before?

It was just another unexplainable part of this sad movie that cannot be resolved without a script rewrite.

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@vickic531 No, the mark on her belly they mentioned was "Indian paint". The guy accusing Rachel of being indian said it was on the baby's belly, palms, and soles of her feet.

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...they wanted to undress Audrey to see if she was Indian. How would that have told them?
I truly haven't the faintest idea. Even though it was quaint seeing Audrey Hepburn in a western and other characters commented she looked darker than them, to me, she actually appeared to have a lighter complexion than many of the whites. It was very hard to accept her as a full blooded Kiowa woman, just on someone's say so.

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