MovieChat Forums > Tunes of Glory (1960) Discussion > Who was the better soldier?

Who was the better soldier?


I have never seen this remarkable movie before, and it just amazed me. We are more or less led to sympathize with Alec Guinness's character, Jock Sinclair, as the rough and ready "all man" commander who boozes and jokes with his men and doesn't go "by the book" -- a real "man's man" and a soldier's soldier, beloved of his men. Everyone from his mistress to the lowest soldier seems to share this exalted opinion of him ("I have lain in the arms of a real soldier," his mistress says to comfort him.). Yet as his character unrolls, we begin to see him as he truly is --a smug, arrogant, vulgar, drunken, low-class, vain, spiteful man without honor.

His "friendly regiment" has actually degenerated into a free-for-all -- a sty of drunken swine, with no discipline, no dignity, and no honor, led by the biggest swine of them all. When he gets away with striking a subordinate in a drunken stupor, he promises commander John Mills that he "won't regret it" -- that together they will build Mills's beloved regiment into something really great. The first view of his dark, cheap side is when Mills leaves the room and Guinness mutters that he is a stupid toy soldier, indicating his relish that he has duped Mills into letting him get away scott free.

But his real lack of honor shows when he once again gets the officers to degenerate into drunken pigs in defiance of Mills, rubbing Mills's nose into the fact that he has been duped, that there is basically no honor among thieves, and that the regiment, led by Guinness, will never respect Mills for his act of charity toward Guinness. And we see his further pettiness when, rather than displaying remorse toward the corporal he has struck, he taunts him the next time he sees him by asking him whether he is a single man or married, knowing that the corporal is in love with Guinness's daughter (which is why Guinness struck him). Guinness's character has learned nothing from his close brush with court martial, and has reverted to type.

We also find out that the real soldier was prissy Mills, who was tortured repeatedly by the Germans during his lengthy interment in a Nazi prison camp, while the worst Guinness ever suffered was being thrown in the brig for drunk and disorderly.

This was a bone-chilling performance by Guinness and also by Mills, who goes from looking like a nit-picking prig to being revealed as a tragic man for whom personal honor and the honor of the regiment are all. A superb study of human nature and the meaning of honor.



"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power."
- Julius Caesar, act 2 sc 1

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I'm glad you enjoyed Tunes of Glory. It's one of my favorites.

"We also find out that the real soldier was prissy Mills, who was tortured repeatedly by the Germans during his lengthy interment in a Nazi prison camp, while the worst Guinness ever suffered was being thrown in the brig for drunk and disorderly."

No, Jock fought in WWII and came up through the ranks that way. Barrow mentions having heard about his wartime exploits. I don't recall the exact lines but a couple of the user reviews here refer to Jock's having battle experience.

I can't agree with all of your assessment of Jock as a "small, vulgar, drunken, low-class, vain, spiteful man without honor." Vulgar, drunken, low-class, vain and spiteful, yes, but he is neither small nor without honor. He's larger than life and has been tested on the battlefield. He came up through the ranks, he's one of the men and able to command their loyalty. It's because he knows he can lead that he feels he's earned the right to command the battalion and is so resentful of the newcomer. Notice how Jock instantly and effortlessly but without fanfare reassumes command when they all hear that shot. All his tomfoolery hasn't compromised his ability to take charge in a tight spot. And his treatment of the young boy, who is seeing death for the first time, is superb. reassuring but not coddling, firm but not heartless.

If one is to lead, one must be able to compel others to follow. Jock excels at this but Barrow cannot do it. However courageous he was in surviving his wartime torture, he simply doesn't relate well enough to people to be able to command. And his marriage broke up where Jock is widower who has the love and loyalty of his mistress so I think we're meant to infer that Jock can command loyalty while Barrow cannot.

I think the movie is about loyalty and the ability to command rather than honor.


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"Notice how Jock instantly and effortlessly but without fanfare reassumes command when they all hear that shot. All his tomfoolery hasn't compromised his ability to take charge in a tight spot. And his treatment of the young boy, who is seeing death for the first time, is superb. reassuring but not coddling, firm but not heartless."

This incident actually demonstrated his smallness and heartlessness rather than his ability to lead -- he knew his own guilt at causing this man's death, yet displayed as little concern or remorse as he did toward the corporal he struck. Why do you think he later breaks down completely with guilt? His arrogance should not be mistaken for an "ability to take charge in a tight spot." The loyalty he "inspired" was based only on his complete lack of discipline and his encouragement of vulgarity and drunkenness in the men -- this isn't loyalty as much as co-dependancy.

And the reason the troops wouldn't accept Mills, who was a bit eccentric, is because of Guinness's almost pathological jealousy and undermining of his authority. They would have resented any commander who tried to restore order to their regiment.

As for his service record, yes they both served in WWII, but remember when they first meet they discuss that they have in common that they have both been in prison, but Mills says he would much rather have been in the brig in Scotland like Guinness than in a German prison camp. The implication is that Guinness is a blow-hard who really knows nothing of heroism, only how to placate a bunch of drunks under the guise of loyalty and "leadership." There is a difference between chumminess and leadership. The men loved Guinness for the same reason that spoiled kids love an adult who lets them run wild. I've trained enough dogs to know a good leader when I see one -- and a good leader doesn't let the troops pee all over the carpet.


"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power."
- Julius Caesar, act 2 sc 1

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It's obvious we will have to agree to disagree. I will say that having been in life-or-death situations, I'd much rather be led by a Sinclair than by a Barrow. I'd rather have a Sinclair than a Barrow watch my back, too.

And I consider suicide an "inner-directed" act, not one "caused" by outside agents. I've known vets who thrived in civiliam life after combat experience (yes, including being POWs), vets who returned so diminished by war that they barely got through daily life once back home and vets who returned from war as the "walking dead" and later killed themselves. It's obvious to me that Barrow was in the last category.

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As one who has also been in life-or-death situations, I can say I'd rather have a solid, earnest officer like Barrow at my back than a drunken buffoon like Sinclair who is only in it for his own ego and who is far more likely to retaliate against a perceived slight by one of his men, resulting in bailing out on them on the battlefield and smirking about it afterward. The man was untrustworthy. Do you really think Sinclair's priority was the best interests of his men? All that "hail fellow well met" stuff cloaked a colossal ego.

As for suicide, yes, people can "cause" suicide in another, as Barrow's case exemplifies. Why do you think one of the first questions asked of a suicidal woman is, "Were you an incest victim?" -- since such a high rate of suicide in women is caused by incest -- "caused by an outside agent". As one who has worked in suicide intervention, I can tell you that the wrong word said to an at-risk person can indeed put them over the edge. And someone like Barrow who was repeatedly tortured in a prison camp while Sinclair was boozing with his cronies is definitely an at-risk person -- he was clearly suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome. Yes, many former POWs do not commit suicide but psychologists will tell you that this often depends on the extent and duration of their torture and confinement, and the level of support they receive afterward. Barrow received no support -- just the opposite. He was baited and disrespected by Sinclair just to show off -- a very adolescent childish game.

It was clearly Sinclair's malicious intent to push Barrow over the edge because of the most trivial of disagreements, with no regard to the man's horrific war experience or his charitable decision in Sinclair's favor. If Sinclair's treatment of Barrow is an example of his "care for his men", I would certainly hate to have him at my back in a life-or-death situation. He would slip the knife in your back over a disagreement about who took the last scone at tea.



"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power."
- Julius Caesar, act 2 sc 1

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Colonel Barrows was torture in a Japanese POW camp not a German one. First of all, if you look at his ribbon bar, one of his ribbons is the Burma Star for seeing action in Burma. I also believe he told his adjutant while they were talking in the jeep near a lake, that he was torture by the Japanese Army. I believe that he also told Sinclair about being in a Japanese POW camp after Sinclair told Barrows that he join the army after doing a stint in prison.

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Thanks for the correction. In any case, it doesn't matter who did the torture as much as the impact of the torture on Barrow.



"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power."
- Julius Caesar, act 2 sc 1

reply

The only reaon why the officers got away with being drunken free-for-alls is because they were officers. If they were enlisted men, they would be constantly on a charge sheet and probably get court-martial, do some prison time, and then be discharged from the service.

I agree with you that torture is torture no matter what shape or form it is or who does it. I wonder if Sinclair will take revenge on Maj. Charles 'Charlie' Scott because Scott was in favor of court-martialing Sinclair; otherwise, the army will receive a black eye (no pun intended) because it will be accuse of covering it up?

Sinclair's attitude towards Barrow reminds me of President Bush's attitude of finding the WMDs in Iraq. At a dinner party, Bush came into the room and started looking for the WMDs behind the curtains and tables and everyone was laughing at his behavior. Sinclair and his officers were doing exactly the same thing at the pool table when they went looking for Colonel Barrows.

I did like Sinclair's remark to the young 2nd Lieutenant who saw Colonel Barrow's dead body, that if the young officer was going to be a professional soldier, then he was going to have to deal with both dead and living soldiers, because that is the stock and trade (as Sinclair stated) of being one. It is no different then a fireman, doctor, nurse, and police officer who see misery and death on a daily basis in their professions, the only difference is that a soldier sees dead bodies in wartime while the other professions see dead bodies in peacetime and wartime.

Then again, soldiers saw dead bodies in peacetime as well because until police forces were established, soldiers had to deal with the criminals who commit murder. Furthermore, soldiers also had to deal with see their soldiers dying in peace time due to the various diseases until there was vast improvements in health, medical, and santitation standards. When the British send out a regiment to colonial India, they could expect a good number of them to die because of poor conditions aboard the transport ships and due to climate, living conditions, and diseases in that country. In addition, the living and sanitation standards in pre-Victoria and Victoria Britain was not any better, so you had dead soldiers in that country during peacetime.

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Great story about Bush -- my favorite is when he was told by an aide that two Brazillian soldiers were killed in Iraq. He was absolutely stunned, covered his face in his hands, then asked the aide, "... how many is two-brazillion??"

(that would be a little less than two-gazillion)


"The abuse of greatness is when it disjoins remorse from power."
- Julius Caesar, act 2 sc 1

reply

[deleted]

Same here-Jock was a fighting soldier at his best in battle. Barrow was,apart from being neurotic, the kind of man who would wear Y-fronts under his kilt! Scott the real villain for obvious reasons-CO tops himself, 2-i--c cracks up, 3-i-c gets that long overdue promotion!

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I agree with some of your viewpoints. However, if Jocko and his officers were enlisted men, they would have been on charges of disorderly conduct and being drunk if they acted that way in the canteen or in the NCO mess. The Regimental Sergeant Major (RSM) in the movie would have never tolerated that behavior at all in the NCO mess if Sinclair was a piper major. He was talking to the Pipe Major about Colonel Barrows being a real proper gentlemen as a commanding officer and the Piper Major thank the RSM for informing him about what is a proper gentlemen since the RSM was an ex-member of the Scot Guards and that supposly makes the RSM an expert on officers.

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A little story about two Navy master chiefs that I served with in the late 1980s.

One had spent his entire career on destroyers and cruisers; he was a wizard with the paperwork and the politics of the chiefs' mess and impressing the senior officers.

The other, as a first class petty officer, had been chief of the boat on a river patrol boat in Vietnam, exactly like the one portrayed in Apocalypse Now. He led men into battle, called in air strikes on his own authority, put his own life on the line.

Both held the same rank, but there is only one who I would have followed in an emergency or combat situation.

I also remember flying out of Bermuda on an anti-submarine mission, with General John Vessey on board as an observer. He was short scrawny man, about 5'6", who had enlisted in 1937, received a battlefield commission at Anzio, and rose in the ranks to become the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. That sort of thing just does not happen anymore, not in the American military.


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They're both broken men, not suited to a peacetime army.

The plot reminded me of the Caine Mutiny and Carrington VC, which explore individual characteristics and institutional conformity. Had there been a coda, I would have expected Scott (Dennis Price) to get the gig just to put the veterans in their place.

Marlon, Claudia and Dimby the cats 1989-2005, 2007 and 2010.

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I also think it's fair to say Barrow was suffering from stress, what we might now call PTS because of his experiences in the Japanese POW camp. Sinclair of course had seen much action against Rommel in North Africa, but I suspect was not really aware of the way POWs were treated in Burma, and didn't give Barrow any credit for that. Most British soldiers had a sneaking respect for Rommel, and there are many known instances where Rommel behaved honourably toward captured prisoners. This was not so in Burma, which became a particularly savage struggle, as the Pacific theatre was in general.

You're right, both were tainted by war, and this ultimately led to disaster for both men. It was a good story, beautifully acted, with a powerful message, still relevant 50 plus years on.

Fortytwo? FortyTwo? what sort of puerile, pathetic, stupid answer is that? Everyone knows it's 43.

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Sinclair also had a bit of a chip on his shoulder because Barrow was from an aristocratic background, a type of inverted snobbery. A personality clash gone haywire. Such men would never have seen eye to eye.
In today's Army, one would have been moved to other duties as the signs would have been spotted early and acted upon. However, I do agree Barrow did have severe stress issues, and when he made early concessions to Sinclair, Sinclair exploited them as a weakness and "upped the anti". Nasty. Whilst the War affected both, it was the clash of personality traits which caused the explosion and final tragedy.

My late father fought in N. Africa and he too admitted having some respect for Rommel and didn't quite believe he was a Nazi but in fact described him as an Officer fighting for his country, as my father and comrades in arms fought for theirs. There was even one tale of 2 British soldiers having been captured, and Rommel called for them to be brought to him then gave them cups of tea in his tent,and afterwards released them to their lines on some sort of whim!! Remarkable conduct.

Tremendous acting and as you said, remains relevant.

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Some interesting perspectives here, however, I get the distinct feeling they are inspired by US military background as opposed to UK or Commonwealth.

Most of the initial errors have been corrected (Japanese prison camp, Jock was not drinking and partying while Barrow was tortured - he was fighting a war...).

I know that "mess culture" in the US military is very different than in Commonwealth units. The messes (clubs stratified along lines of rank: junior ranks: Sergeants and Warrant Officers: and officers) are very important for bonding with one's peers. They have bars and sell alcohol which can be the cause of bad behaviour, but, also acts as an aide to blowing steam.

The US military's attitude toward alcohol is downright puritanical. At least 2posters have commented on the behaviour in the mess being drunken debauchery etc (sounds more like Caligula). They also said it would never happen with the "Enlisted Men" what we call the Other Ranks (ORs)or, in Canada, Non-Commissioned Members (NCMs). Obviously, you've never set foot in proper Commonwealth messes on a particularly wild night. A degree of wildness is tolerated (even encouraged) as it allows them to blow off steam and builds cohesion in the privacy of their respective club and not in public.

Admittedly, there is a time and a place for certain behaviour. The officers' behaviour at the cocktail party was in contravention to the CO's orders and not appropriate for a function attended by civilians and ladies. This is the true transgression - thumbing their noses at the new CO's orders. The behaviour itself was not all that bad: dancing with arms held high, loud whooping etc...Remember, these officers (except for the newest subbies like Mackinnon)had just spent as much as 6 years at war. The transition is a tough one.

Barrow was obviously dealing with some demons and mental instability. I think it goes further back than being a POW - his father, grandfather etc had all commanded the battalion - lots of pressure. He didn't appear to fit in even as a subaltern (whiskey doesn't agree with him) and it seems he was moved out on ERE fairly early outside of the battalion. It is my assessment that his mental instability meant he was not a good choice to be CO.

Jock was commissioned from the ranks, popular and rough around the edges. He was effective as CO (to a point) but suffered from some character flaws. Being CO is about respect and not popularity. The CO (with the RSM to advise him) sets standards that keep the battalion an effective fighting unit. Many of these standards are not going to be popular. In that respect, Jock was lacking as a CO.

It has been mentioned that Charlie Scott was the real villain. I think this is treating this too much like The Caine Mutiny and Fred McMurry's character. Scott was honest and knew the right answers. Jock had committed a serious crime and should have faced judgement for his actions. Barrow faltered and compromised his principals in pursuit of the popular decision vs the right decision. When he fully realizes this (aided by Scott's comment) he snaps and commits suicide. The novel is less clear in the end. Barrow simply disappears at the river's edge and is never seen again, presumed dead.

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[deleted]

I tend to lean towards the Mills character. He may have been too straight laced but on the other hand the Guinness character, and cronies, were too boorish. Of course this is a movie and conflict/resolution is a necessary ingredient. But I think higher command should have foreseen keeping Sinclair in the Regiment would lead to problems. He should have been transferred to another regiment in the brigade.

In the US Army what Sinclair was doing would have been considered "homesteading" which is discouraged.

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All well and good but will the fellows go into battle for? We all know the answer to that.

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If Barrow wanted to command the regiment why hadn't he been in it rather than lecturing at Sandhurst?

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