MovieChat Forums > Sink the Bismarck! (1960) Discussion > Admiral Lütjens not a fanatical Nazi as ...

Admiral Lütjens not a fanatical Nazi as portrayed in film

posted 15 years ago by southwestern71
19 replies | jump to latest

I lived in Germany for many years & I know the two least Nazified branches of the German Armed Forces during WWII were the Navy (Kriegsmarine) though this was more true of the surface fleet than the U-Boats & the Air Force (Luftwaffe).

Chief of Staff (Chef des Stabes): Kapitän zur See Harald Netzbandt was Jewish & served under Admiral Günther Lütjens & died with him & Captain Lindemann when the Bismarck was sunk by the Royal Navy on the morning of Tuesday 27th May 1941. There's photo's of Netzbandt meeting Hitler with other Kriegsmarine (German Navy) high rankers, the only visible difference being him giving a standard military salute rather than a heil.

Now that's an incredible high rank for an "untermensch" and if there's one that high (Fleet Command Staff) there must have been thousands in the lower ranks. He was a great Officer and apparently very highly appreciated by Admiral Günther Lütjens.

In a published historical inquiry in 1965 by Jürgen Rohwer over the sinking of the Jewish refugee-ships Struma and Mefkure in the Black Sea, it is proven that both Jew-ships had not been sunk by the Kriegsmarine as has been claimed until now.

"After as before, Jews were able to leave the country from the Black Sea ports. Even more: the Supreme Commander of the Kriegsmarine, Grand Admiral Dönitz, even gave orders not to hinder the Jew-transports Bella Citta, Maritza, and Milka departing from Costanza (Romania) in March and April 1944, but to treat them as normal ships.

The German Naval leadership instructed U-boats to tow those three ships past the mine barrages. It was Soviet warships, on the other hand, that sunk the Struma and the Mefkure.

[–] Dice_Man 14 years ago

Well said. Having watched the film today, I'm quite unable to explain why the film, having tried so hard to be 'realistic' in key areas, portrayed Lutjens in this manner. I actually cringed when he said 'Remember you are all Nazis', as it was even then widely known neither Lutjens nor the majority of the Kriegsmarine were 'Nazified', so the need to include it in the film escapes me. It'd have been far better to just illustrate the unified professionalism of the Bismarck crew, not portray them as a crew operating under an ideological yoke.

[–] enochsneed 14 years ago

Yes, this portrayal is the most dated thing about this film. Having read more of the history, the real situation on 'Bismarck' between Lutjens and Lindemann was for more tense and dramatic than a wild-eyed fanatic being followed by mild-mannered underling. If it could have been incorporated into the story it would have made a far more moving and involving piece of drama.

[–] randy3140 14 years ago

Obviously they wanted a villain for theatrical purposes. No room for nuance in this film. Still, an enemy nonetheless. They were fighting the bloody lot:

"Look, sir, you talk about the high command of the Luftwaffe, then the SS and the Gestapo. To me they're the same. We're fighting the bloody lot. There's only one way to put it, sir. They are the common enemies of everyone who believes in freedom." (Richard Attenborough's character in The Great Escape)

[–] james1986london 14 years ago

He may not have been a fanatical Nazi but he was serving the Nazis and trying to accomplish what they wanted.

[–] richimorton 14 years ago

Nazi

That which does not Kill me makes me Stranger . . .

[–] Othy59 14 years ago

Perhaps the film makers wanted a villain, I'm not sure.

"Well I didn't expect a kind-of Spanish Inquisition!" - Monty Python

[–] rick-deckard45 14 years ago

it would have been better if they showed him as he really was, not a stereotypical nazi. that would have added some depth to the film and made it a lot more interesting, with good guys on both sides - it's just that one of them takes orders from one of the most villainous people in history.

baby can you dig your man?
he's a righteous man.

[–] james1986london 14 years ago

How was he a good guy? He was trying to destroy the Allies' war effort and bring about a Nazi victory. If he was a good guy he would have opposed the Nazis.

[–] Karl Aksel 14 years ago

How was he a good guy? He was trying to destroy the Allies' war effort and bring about a Nazi victory. If he was a good guy he would have opposed the Nazis.

He tried to bring about GERMAN victory, not "nazi" victory. What you are saying is just as ludicrous as saying that US soldiers, during the invasion of Iraq, were trying to bring about a "Republican victory". Servicemen fight for their countries, not their governments. And sure, while a German victory was on the nazi agenda as well, it was also on the German agenda. No one wants to change their governments by losing a bloody war.

And just how many prominent carreer military men, with three decades in the service (including a major war), do you think would turn traitor to their country on account of current government policies?

[–] southwestern71 14 years ago

Well said Karl Aksel I almost completely agree with you, see my post on this Bismarck forum dated Wed Jul 21 2010 at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0054310/board/thread/135149485?d=167315705 &p=2#167315705.

In addition not only was Captain Günther Lütjens not a fanatical Nazi but his wife & brother-in-law Admiral Otto Backenköhler were half-Jews. Lütjens two sons were naval officers & thus risked being discharged because of their partial Jewish blood.

The only thing you said that I disagree with is you said “Servicemen fight for their countries, not their governments”. Servicemen of any nation like to think they are fighting for their country but it’s governments that start wars & send their citizens to fight them.

[–] Karl Aksel 14 years ago

The only thing you said that I disagree with is you said “Servicemen fight for their countries, not their governments”. Servicemen of any nation like to think they are fighting for their country but it’s governments that start wars & send their citizens to fight them.

But of course. What I meant was that what motivates the serviceman is his loyalty to his country, not his government. His government orders him to fight, but his country compels him to fight.

[–] LouisRenault 13 years ago

Bear in mind when the film was made.

Between the wars "the invincible Hood" was the largest warship in the world. It was the pride of the Royal Navy and its sinking came as a terrible shock to the British people at the time. A mere 19 years later most of them were still alive and portraying the captain of the Bismark as a decent German doing his duty wouldn't have played well. People just wouldn't have gone to see the picture.

[–] screenman 14 years ago

The strangest riddles about post-war Germany is that absolutely nobody supported the Nazi party and absolutely nobody knew about the holocaust.

Perhaps Hitler never really existed...

[–] southwestern71 14 years ago

On Jul 11 2010 james1986london says in relation to Admiral Lütjens "How was he a good guy? He was trying to destroy the Allies' war effort and bring about a Nazi victory. If he was a good guy he would have opposed the Nazis."

Reply: It's the duty of the armed forces of any nation to defend that nation. Hitler got Germany into a war yes but once the bombs started falling the German Armed Forces couldn’t sit on its arse & let the country be destroyed Nazi regime or no Nazi regime. As I previously stated in my opening post on Apr 11 2009 the Luftwaffe (Erhard Milch who was half Jewish & bloody looked it was promoted in 1940 to field-marshal and given the title Air Inspector General) & Kriegsmarine with the exception of the U-Boat fleet were the two least Nazified branches of the German Armed Forces in WWII.

As I also earlier stated Harald Netzbandt was Jewish & Chief of Staff aboard Bismarck & received the utmost respect from Admiral Lütjens. In 1941 Grand Admiral Räder refused a direct order from Hitler to get rid of his Jewish officers but he still saw to it the enemy was engaged.

If the BNP came to power in Britain & proceeded to rid the country of it’s non-white & Jewish citizens & an outside power like the US disagreed & attacked Britain, politics aside I can assure you Britain’s armed forces would strike back & rightly so.

Also on Jul 11 2010 screenman said "The strangest riddles about post-war Germany is that absolutely nobody supported the Nazi party and absolutely nobody knew about the holocaust.

Perhaps Hitler never really existed..."

Reply: On the contrary the Nazi Party did have support but regards the holocaust aside from a few key people the genocide of millions was not common knowledge generally speaking. Even the allies refused to believe what escaped contraction camp inmates told them about factories of death on an industrial scale. I suppose it did beggar belief. Even German Jews (mostly mixed race part Jew part German) serving in the armed forces either to save their necks or to prove Nazi racial doctrine false were unaware of what was happening. Mixed race soldiers who visited Jewish relatives the night before they were deported to a camp did not know then that "deportation" meant "death".

There were exemptions to Aryan law that allowed mixed race Jew/German (mischlinge in German) to serve. An estimated 150,000 soldiers, sailors, and airmen of partial Jewish descent served in Adolf Hitler's forces--some, such as field marshal and war criminal Erhard Milch, placed in high positions by Hitler himself even as he tightened the noose on the Jews of Europe.

[–] screenman 14 years ago

Actually, I was just being flippant.

I get a little irritated by the numbers of ageing nazis interviewed on various programmes, insisting that they knew nothing about anything and were just reluctantly press-ganged. Though I've no doubt many of them were.

Likewise the numbers of soldiers and sailors and airmen who insist that they were just doing their jobs.

As you say, the armed forces fought for their country rather than their political party. But many took to their tasks with such zeal that it ultimately made no difference whether they were nazi supporters or not.

And by the same token; the allies fought Germany, not the nazis. For the most part - they were all `Krauts'. At the time, there was neither reason nor opportunity to discriminate. If you're at the receiving-end of a 15-inch shell, the politics of the person firing the gun aren't going to weigh very heavily.

[–] james1986london 14 years ago

Nazi Germany was a totalitarian one-party state where state and party were inseparable. A German victory would have been a Nazi victory, there is no getting away from that fact. I'm sure Lutjens was intelligent enough to realise that when he pursued the Nazis' aggressive war of conquest and enslavement.

[–] southwestern71 14 years ago

On Aug 4 2010 james1986london said "Nazi Germany was a totalitarian one-party state where state and party were inseparable. A German victory would have been a Nazi victory, there is no getting away from that fact. I'm sure Lutjens was intelligent enough to realise that when he pursued the Nazis' aggressive war of conquest and enslavement."

Reply: As were the quarter, half & in some cases full-blooded Jews serving in Hitler’s armed forces, men like war criminal Erhard Milch who in 1926 became director of Germany's national airline - Deutsche Lufthansa now known simply as Lufthansa. Milch was tried as a war criminal at Nurember found guilty and sentenced to life imprisonment but was released in June 1954. He spent the remainder of his life in Düsseldorf dying on 25/1/72. Milch may well have been a full blooded Jew. His mother falsified his birth records as did the mothers of countless others for obvious reasons. In most cases attempts at falsification of birth records in Nazi Germany were unsuccessful but in Milche’s case it worked.

"A highly intelligent man should always choose a primitive and stupid woman." Adolf Hitler

[–] james1986london 14 years ago

That is rather irrelevant to the discussion.

[–] southwestern71 14 years ago

Re your post of 12th October 2010 well said Karl Aksel I I almost completely agree with you, see my post on this Bismarck forum dated Wed Jul 21 2010 at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0054310/board/thread/135149485?d=167315705 &p=2#167315705.

In addition not only was Captain Günther Lütjens not a fanatical Nazi but his wife & brother-in-law Admiral Otto Backenköhler were half-Jews. Lütjens two sons were naval officers & thus risked being discharged because of their partial Jewish blood.

The only thing you said that I disagree with is you said “Servicemen fight for their countries, not their governments”. Servicemen of any nation like to think they are fighting for their country but it’s governments that start wars & send their citizens to fight them.