MovieChat Forums > Exodus (1961) Discussion > To all of Israel's loathsome critics

To all of Israel's loathsome critics


Senator John McCain's brother on Jews -



There is a lot of worry popping up in the media just now -- "Can Israel Survive?" Don't worry about it. It relates to something that Palestinians, the Arabs, and perhaps most Americans don't realize -- the Jews are never going quietly again. Never. And if the world doesn't come to understand that, then millions of Arabs are going to die. It's as simple as that. Throughout the history of the world, the most abused, kicked-around race of people have been the Jews. Not just during the holocaust of World War II, but for thousands of years. They have truly been "The Chosen People" in a terrible and tragic sense.



The Bible story of Egypt's enslavement of the Jews is not just a story, it is history, if festooned with theological legend and heroic epics. In 70 A.D. the Romans, which had for a long time tolerated the Jews --even admired them as 'superior' to other vassals -- tired of their truculent demands for independence and decided on an early "Solution" to the Jewish problem. Jerusalem was sacked and reduced to near rubble, Jewish resistance was pursued and crushed by the implacable Roman War Machine -- see'Masada'. And thus began The Diaspora, the dispersal of Jews throughout the rest of the world.



Their homeland destroyed, their culture crushed, they looked desperately for the few niches in a hostile world where they could be safe. That safety was fragile, and often subject to the whims of moody hosts. The words 'pogrom', 'ghetto', and 'anti-Semitism' come from this treatment of the first mono-theistic people. Throughout Europe, changing times meant sometimes tolerance, sometimes even warmth for the Jews, but eventually it meant hostility, then malevolence. There is not a country in Europe or Western Asia that at one time or another has not decided to lash out against the children of Moses, sometimes by whim, sometimes by manipulation.



Winston Churchill calls Edward I one of England's very greatest kings. It was under his rule in the late 1200's that Wales and Cornwall were hammered into the British crown, and Scotland and Ireland were invaded and occupied. He was also the first European monarch to set up a really effective administrative bureaucracy, surveyed and censused his kingdom, established laws and political divisions. But he also embraced the Jews. Actually Edward didn't embrace Jews so much as he embraced their money. For the English Jews had acquired wealth -- understandable, because this people that could not own land or office, could not join most of the trades and professions, soon found out that money was a very good thing to accumulate. Much harder to take away than land or a store, was a hidden sock of gold and silver coins. Ever resourceful, Edward found a way -- he borrowed money from the Jews to finance imperial ambitions in Europe, especially France. The loans were almost certainly not made gladly, but how do you refuse your King? Especially when he is 'Edward the Hammer'. Then, rather than pay back the debt, Edward simply expelled the Jews. Edward was especially inventive -- he did this twice. After a time, he invited the Jews back to their English homeland, borrowed more money, then expelled them again.



Most people do not know that Spain was one of the early entrants into The Renaissance. People from all over the world came to Spain in the late medieval period. All were welcome -- Arabs, Jews, other Europeans. The University of Salamanca was one of the great centers of learning in the world -- scholars of all nations, all fields came to Salamanca to share their knowledge and their ideas. But in 1492, Ferdinand and Isabella, having driven the last of Moors from the Spanish Shield, were persuaded by the righteous fundamentalists of the time to announce "The Act of Purification". A series of steps were taken in which all Jews and Arabs and other non-Christians were expelled from the country, or would face the tools and the torches of The Inquisition. From this 'cleansing' come the Sephardic Jews -- as opposed to the Ashkenazis of Eastern Europe. In Eastern Europe, the sporadic violence and brutality against Jews are common knowledge. 'Fiddler' without the music and the folksy humor. At times of fury, no accommodation by the Jew was good enough, no profile low enough, no village poor enough or distant enough.



From these come the near-steady flow of Jews to the United States. And despite the disdain of the Jews by most 'American' Americans, they came to grab the American Dream with both hands, and contributed everything from new ideas of enterprise in retail and entertainment to becoming some of our finest physicians and lawyers. The modern United States, in spite of itself, IS The United States in part because of its Jewish blood.



Then the Nazi Holocaust -- the corralling, sorting, orderly eradication of millions of the people of Moses. Not something that other realms in other times didn't try to do, by the way, the Germans were just more organized and had better murder technology.



I stood in the center of Dachau for an entire day, about 15 years ago, trying to comprehend how this could have happened. I had gone there on a side trip from Munich, vaguely curious about this Dachau. I soon became engulfed in the enormity of what had occurred there nestled in this middle and working class neighborhood.



How could human beings do this to other human beings, hear their cries, their pleas, their terror, their pain, and continue without apparently even wincing? I no longer wonder. At some times, some places, ANY sect of the human race is capable of horrors against their fellow man, whether a member of the Waffen SS, a Serbian sniper, a Turkish policeman in 1920's Armenia, a Mississippi Klansman. Because even in the United States not all was a Rose Garden. For a long time Jews had quotas in our universities and graduate schools. Only so many Jews could be in a medical or law school at one time. Jews were disparaged widely. I remember as a kid Jewish jokes told without a wince - "Why do Jews have such big noses?"



Well, now the Jews have a homeland again. A place that is theirs. And that's the point. It doesn't matter how many times the United States and European powers try to rein in Israel, if it comes down to survival of its nation, its people, they will fight like no lioness has ever fought to save her cubs. They will fight with a ferocity, a determination, and a skill, that will astound us.



And many will die, mostly their attackers, I believe. If there were a macabre historical betting parlor, my money would be on the Israelis to be standing at the end. As we killed the kamikazes and the Wehrmacht soldaten of World War II, so will the Israelis kill their suicidal attackers, until there are not enough to torment them.



The irony goes unnoticed -- while we are hammering away to punish those who brought the horrors of last September here, we restrain the Israelis from the same retaliation. Not the same thing, of course -- We are We, They are They. While we mourn and seethe at September 11th, we don't notice that Israel has a September 11th sometimes every day.



We may not notice, but it doesn't make any difference.



And it doesn't make any difference whether you are pro-Israeli or you think Israel is the bully of the Middle East. If it comes to where a new holocaust looms -- with or without the concurrence of the United States and Europe -- Israel will lash out without pause or restraint at those who would try to annihilate their country.



The Jews will not go quietly again.



Joe McCain

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hello, you guys, i know this is not a private posting board, and you probably won´t be reading this any time soon. But as a jew i wanted to let you know, that i´m proud to be reading this on this board, especially after everything that´s going on in the world lately.

Shema israel, adonai eloeinu, adonai ejad

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the great state of Israel and what it's done:
http://www.soundofegypt.com/palestinian/adult/massacres.htm
makes you think doesn't it?

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Why would they? Most European gentiles hate jews, just like their ancestors did for centuries. Who created Israel? EUROPE! It's centuries of hatred and oppression that culminated with the holocaust, fueled the creation modern Israel. Everything bad happening to the Palestinian Arabs can at least be partially blamed on most of Europe. In the past 100 years, most stryfe in the middle east was the result of European meddling. Now the snotty socialist critics of the world wash their hands of their sins by pointing the finger at the age old scapegoat...the Jews.


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Sheer propaganda.

"They sucked his brains out!"

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And so the oppressed becomes the oppresser.

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Ahsvat, thanks for posting this tl;dr but enlightening McCain Family Global Politico-Historical Revisionism 101 intro. One point I think must be cleared up immediately: are we to understand that, according to whoever wrote the title of the thread, all critics of Israel are loathsome?

When morning comes twice a day or not at all

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There was never any mass Exodus from Egypt, there was never a major presence of a Hebrew underclass in Egypt, and Judaism was just a some generic pagan religion that just got lucky (and overinflating itself like any cult does).

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"the most abused, kicked-around race of people have been the Jews.

I think you'll find that would be the Human race and the sad irony is how the stupid apes find new ways to justify kicking themselves over and over again.

That's what makes twits like David Icke so side spittingly funny.

Who needs blood drinking reptilian shape shifters when humanity through it's bizarre fixation with labelling is the perfect vehicle of it's own demise?

Should humanity survive a nuclear war it would still be fighting over strips of radioactive desert promised to them in the Des Moines telephone directory by the Almighty Bomb.

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I never read Uris's novel, but, after watching Premminger's movie, I am very interested in the true story of the birth (rebirth?) of the Jewish state.

You seem to be well informed. I am an American who has been ambivalent as to the West's involvement in the Israel/Palestine conflict for many years; however, I think that it is very important for the people of the world to understand why this small plot of pretty ordinary=looking real estate is so important to these people.

I understand that religion has a lot to do with it, but, at the risk of sounding even more ignorant than I already must, can you recommend a historical book on the subject?

I have close friends on both sides of the conflict, and nobody can tell me what the REAL issue is.

Paul Newman doesn't look Jewish, but neither did Charleston Heston.

"I love corn!"

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First of all, I'll begin with a somewhat OT sentence: I read Leon Uris's novel, Exodus, on which the movie was based. It's an excellent novel. While I largely enjoyed the movie Exodus, I liked Leon Uris's novel Exodus better, because the movie's a much smaltzier rendition of this historical event.

For the most part, the people who are critical of Israel's occupation of West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem, with its housing demolitions, the building of settlements, and the cruel treatment of innocent Palestinian civilians living in those territories, are the people who genuinely care about Israel's welfare and well-being and want Israel to continue to exist. I, too, am included in this particular group of critics, because Israel doesn't do itself any justice by its continued policies in West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem. Israel's survival as a nation really does depend on Israel's evacuating their troops and their right-wing Israeli Jewish settlers out of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem, and allowing the Palestinians in those territories to create and manage their own independent, sovereign nation-state, alongside Israel, and not in place of Israel, the way a lot of critics would like to see happen.

On the other hand, there are the more hateful critics of Israel, as the title of this thread is called. These are the people who are into scapegoating and blaming Israel for every single thing that happens over there, just simply because these latter critics I'm talking about really don't want Israel to exist....period! This attitude, I think, is due to one of two things: Either they really have no understanding of Jewish history, and why the State of Israel needs to exist, or, as some people have put it, they're willfully ignorant, and despise the Jews as a people. Some of these latter critics of Israel are quite open about not wanting Israel to exist, for both of the above reasons that are described in this latter paragraph of my post, and others are more subtle about it, if one gets the drift.

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I'm not sure that either Paul Newman or Charleston Heston were Jewish.

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This thread's title was an attention-grabber. So, is anyone who criticizes Israel loathsome? Is any criticism of Israel inherently loathsome? Inquiring minds want to know...

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Yet again we come back to the ridiculous assertion that any criticism of Israel is automatically anti-Semitic whether overtly or covertly and this reasoning is used to deny any merit that criticism may hold, it is disgusting and ridiculous. The use of scriptural evidence is absolutely ridiculous, coming from a life long practicing Catholic who has attended a religious educational institution even now in my post-grad days. First of all the Scriptures you refer to are far from conclusive and should not be applied to real world situations, I have been to conferences where this entire notion has been debated and dismissed. If anything, it comes down to it being a religious text which not everyone agrees to ascribe to and bind themselves by, making it completely ridiculous to enforce its tenets on any population. Also the use of historical rights? According to that logic the Native Americans should control the entire Western Hemisphere, land rights really boil down to who can make the claim and back it up and with Israel's current status it is the Israelis who have ownership now, but that doesn't mean they have some type of unbreakable connection to the Levant that everyone past, present and future has to honor. Might makes right very often in the real world, especially in this situation and while wrongs are committed by both sides, aren't the Palestinians following a similar path to the early Jewish freedom fighters in the 20s, 30s and 40s? Also to this "never again" argument, yes the Israelis have a right to defend themselves, but not with impunity. Has anyone in the mainstream media, other than the implications of one National Geographic and one BBC report I found, compared the pictures and situation in places such as central Bethleham to say the Warsaw ghetto. Now while the Polish situation was undoubtedly worse, they're not executing the Palestinians they have walled in, there are parallels which can be drawn. The point is that like any situation, this one is very much in the gray area, and perhaps even more than most of us care to admit.

Interesting article about Israel's current predicament
<http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/18/opinion/sunday/friedman-israel-adrift-at-sea-alone.html>;
Big Thomas Friedman fan myself.

Also, can we please use the term Israeli instead of Jew, that language is so imprecise and generalized that it engenders the most base discussions and really lowers the level of discourse. Also it exemplifies the ignorance which characterizes many of these discussions.
Also, the term anti-Semitic really means that you have a profound problem with a language group, and the people who speak them or, more aptly, descend from those who spoke them which includes most of the current Middle East and part of Africa. While I realize the term has been subsumed to mean strictly anti-Jewish in the current lexicon, I figured while I'm up on my language high horse, why not. Also the term anti-Israeli would be more appropriate than anti-Jewish as I pointed out above.
People hate and fear what they don't understand...especially on IMDb

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Thanks for an excellent post, lavenderspirit2005. I couldn't agree with you more on this. You say a lot of things that I wish I could say. Bravo!

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So let me get this straight, a people have the right to take land by invasion from the previous inhabitants, because their god told them to do it? I'm talking about the first Israel here. Sounds like every people ever. Maybe you should reexamine this from the Palestinian extremist perspective and realize that both extremists are wrong. Nobody has a right to subjugate another, or force them out of their homes. If there is a god, he hates fascists in all forms, so stop. Just stop it. End the cycle of senseless death. Tear down those stupid walls. You can't blockade a whole group of regular people. That's always wrong. Jets and tanks vs. people = very bad. It doesn't matter what has happened in the past, it's still wrong. We're just humans. No race or ethnicity is better than another. We're all equally dumb.

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A beautiful post. Sadly, most nations and tribes are guilty of some form of racism and genocide. African tribes practiced warfare and slavery against each other, and allied with slavers to turn their foes over to them. Native Americans kept Native American slaves. The ancient Jews kept slaves and their savage destruction of opposing nations is celebrated in their scriptures and holy days. Ditto Arabs, Russians, Germans, ancient Greece and Rome...the list is long. The Israel vs Palestine conflict is just one more modern instantiation of humankind's worst tendencies.

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