Whats with the mother and son? - Suddenly, Last Summer Discussion

[–] mongoose249 20 years ago

well, her name is "violet" by the way. But the film implies these things

***SPOILERS***

1) There relationship was so intense because Mrs. Venable adored her son, had to be around him all the times, smothering him. The play, if you read it and the film implies that Mrs Venable and Sebastian were active in sex - together.

2)Sebastian, like so many others of his nature, was so smothered and ended up disturbed by the female in that way, that he looked for comfort from men - yes he was a homosexual. When Catherine explains the "bathing suit" scene he 'attracted' men and boys.

3)Sebastian was turned on by the men and boys all begging him for money, some sort of macho thing.

The film and play features many problems in Tennessee Williams' life, his sister rose had a lobotomy - like Catherine was supposed to. And he too was gay. Whether his tastes and desires were like Sebastians, who knows?
The reason why the film doesn't say outright, he was gay, he was turned on by this etc., etc., etc., was because Hollywood was still ruled by the William Hayes Office. And the film couldn't have been released. Today this film wouldn't get a second look. Its a very deep play, much more then a collection of A-grade stars in a weird film! Hope this helps.

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[–] deevzqz 19 years ago

THank you for the iluminating information about this picture. I finaly got to see the whole film this morning and was a bit puzzled by the ending of it. I shall keep visiting this forum for more...

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[–] dcurry-1 19 years ago

I saw this movie for the 1st time,I didn't understand it. Later I went to the library & read a synopsis. It said Sebastian was gay & shy. His mother, Violet Venable was very beautiful & outgoing. She accepted Sebastian's homosexuality. They traveled a lot & her looks would attract men. In turn she would introduce them to Sebastian. When she became older & her looks started to fade, he turned to his cousin Catherine. Remember when she 1st met Montgomery Clift, she said I almost said you must meet my son.

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[–] mel2000 14 years ago

Remember when she 1st met Montgomery Clift, she said "I almost said you must meet my son."

And she said that just after complimenting Clift on his good looks.

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[–] Greek1234 19 years ago

Thankyou! It helped me see this film for what it truly is!

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[–] dawh1 19 years ago

This emotionally incestuous relationship actually has a name. It's called a Jocasta Complex. A friend of mine who is a social worker tells me it's more common that people realize.

I wonder if anyone notices that Sebastian's trip with Cathy is basically unsuccessful. Whe he traveled with Violet, her witty conversation and elegant style attracted other gay men, who then went on to have sex with shy, retiring Sebastian. But Cathy is only able to attract heterosexual males, so Sebastian has to resort to teenage street boys who are so poor that they will do anything for the money. (Spain still has boys like this, but they are mostly Eastern European and North African, not Spanish.)

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[–] bregund 19 years ago

Yes, they are called "matchmakers".

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[–] tvbaby2001 19 years ago

I didn't think of it that way, but that does make a lot of sense.

I have had days infinitely more enjoyable

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] theavants 19 years ago

Freud basically said that a gay is created from the situation of having a cold, intrusive, controlling mother and a weak or absent father. That Sebastian had! Not saying that their might not be a genetic propensity for this direction - but more than likely you still need this type of emotional family situation to turn those genes on.

Sebastian's mother was having emotional incest (Jocast Complex) with her son b/c she couldn't have normal emotional interaction with the husband. Men do it too during Elektra with their daughters.

Beware of fathers that say "I'm going home to see my girl" and such and they mean their daughters and not their wives. You heard it before. They're emotionally sucking off the daughter natural Elektra stage when they're Daddy's Little Girl and think Daddy's perfect. Same with mothers and Mommy's Little Man.

Vivian is not that different from William's mother figure in Glass Menagerie. Same forms, different stories, always autobiographical, no matter what authors pretend. Vivan said that they needed no one else, save each other. Where would Sebastian's sex drive go? Where it never went - to the Daddy love he could never normally engage in b/c of his smothering, cold and domineering mother.

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[–] nkamber28 18 years ago

Ok, I've read most of the messages that have been posted on this forum, and one person mentioned emotional incest going on between mother and son, whereas someone else said that it is implied in the play that there is actual incest going on between mother and son? So which is it??

And, it appeared to me that Sebastian was more of a pedophile than a homosexual... if he was in fact a child molester, then why was his mother supportive of that?? And also, it seems a bit strange for a mother to be so controlling of every aspect of her son's life, yet be perfectly happy to help him meet men! You'd think she'd try to break him of that.. Can anyone explain?

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[–] theavants 18 years ago

<<one person mentioned emotional incest going on between mother and son, whereas someone else said that it is implied in the play that there is actual incest going on between mother and son? So which is it??
>>

OK - The emotional incest could be actual but it doesn't have to be. I prefer to think that it's more symbolic rather than literal. What mother would actually have physical sex with her son? Plenty of mothers emotionally control their sons though. You know the type - all other women are nothing but their mother is everything and they'll do anything to keep her approval (notice I didn't say love).

The reason why his mother procured boys for her son is b/c that was the only way to maintain the emotional control. If the man found a woman to marry, he may transfer his emotional needs onto her and not need the mother any longer for approval (or whatever their obvious sick relationship entailed). Notice in the movie that his mother is very threatened by Liz Taylor's character taking her place during his poetry sojourn. Normally it was with the mother but this time he brought Liz Taylor - threatening indeed. That's why it all had to come to a head in the play - he was desperately trying to grow up and away from his mother and go off with Liz - or at least put Liz in the new role of the mother and have her procure the men for him.

<< if he was in fact a child molester, then why was his mother supportive of that?? And also, it seems a bit strange for a mother to be so controlling of every aspect of her son's life, yet be perfectly happy to help him meet men! You'd think she'd try to break him of that.. Can anyone explain? >>

A man has to have physical sex with something doesn't he. Not even the most controlling, emotionally controlling mother can make that an unreality.

Just imagine that the only person in your whole world is your son - even the feelings and emotional needs that you would've had for your husband are put onto him. Just that situation that occurred in this play.

The birds (almost always symbolic of women) were a metaphor for his maternal relationship. She ripped him apart emotionally. She used him for everything she needed but never loved him. Approved? Yes, but never loved and he was very sick b/c of it. So sick he could never break away from her and only have physical sex with poverty stricken boys - symbolic of his own internal shadow side he never faced.

Just my interpretation with a lot of help from Freud - but at least it makes sense and doesn't have any holes.

Same patters over and over...if the son can't identify with the father (b/c of guilt feelings about betraying his mother by doing so or the father's weakness or absence), then he can never resolve his Oedipus complex.

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[–] gbbyg0 18 years ago

ok, kids, i'm going to go ahead and make this very simple... and short.

-Williams had mommy issues like WHAT.
Violet's character type is prevalent basically everywhere in his writing (remember Blanche DuBois of ASCND, and her emotionally disconnected sexual preference towards very young men/boys?)it's probable that William's own mother used her son (maybe not sexually) but emotionally in the same way. - i'm not saying that'll turn you gay, but it'll sure as hell turn you off chicks.

-Sebastian wasn't gay, he was however UNBELIEVABLY *beep* up. the rules of sexual preferences *normal* people have do not apply to someone as damaged as that. his mother is the only woman he's allowed to have (take that as you will) so that only leaves the dudes (hence why she encourages it.) i make an argument for Violet's actual sexual abuse of her son, seeing as how he IS A CHILD MOLESTER, PEOPLE - and normally molesters are only able to justify their actions after having been victimized as children, themselves. it's a psychological, socially-communicable disease.

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[–] AZINDN 15 years ago

Violet is the debaucher of her son, Sebastian. She nurtured his artistic, e.g. poet nature, and provides the sustenance for his lifestyle as the procurer for his homosexual state. In the film, Katherine's monologue states that when Sebastian tried to break from his ties to Violet by going to join a monestary and becoming a monk, his mother followed him to bring him home by interfering with his attempt to cut the apron strings. She prefers the company of her aesthete son to her heterosexual role as wife to her husband, who dies alone while she chases after her son, with whom she has an unnatural love relationship. Throughout this film, there is constant references to the passionate "love" that Violet expresses for Sebastian, most overtly in Violet's own monologues. While Sebastian used his mother for bait to lure the kind of artistic male crowd he preferred, Violet views his sexual lifestyle as "chaste," a denial of his homosexuality, and a state that describes her rather than Sebastian. Violet's perception of Sebastian remains unwilling to see him as unnatural or in violation to the period's standards of a dominant heterosexual society.

Also overlooked in most of these posts is the failure to note the reference to the period, the 1930s post-depression era which celebrated the cafe society in which Violet and Sebastian enjoyed every summer. Typically upper class, monied, people would easily be found hanging in social circles such as celebrities and ex-pat Americans in Europe, such as Cole Porter, himself a gay man married to a southern heterosexual woman. It was not so unusual for this class which Violet and Sebastian belonged. Do not overlook the setting of the film is New Orleans, with references to the bachelor's quarters remains very southern and French culturally, the notion of male bachelors given space to have sexual encounters with prostitutes, Creole women, and likely, homosexual laisons before marriage is reference of the upper classes. Sebastian loads his surroundings with all the "baroque" and "ethnic" arts which can be seen as erotic, homoerotic, and primitive, thus forbidden alternatives to the heterosexual norm.

Sebastian can not exist without his mother, the ultimate source of life, but also, Violet is the resource to lure males for his homosexual appetite, the abberation to the norm. When Catherine replaces Violet, her heterosexuality is the cause of his death when she "fails" Sebastian as Violet accuses and ultimately seeks to destroy her with the lombotomy operation.

-- If Ewan McGregor were a lollipop I'd be a diabetic strumpet --

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[–] ijonesiii 18 years ago

I have always felt that the movie implies incestuous overtones in the relationship between Violet and her son...or at the very least, there was a desire on Violet's part that Sebastian had rejected at some point.

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[–] kelly-527 15 years ago

I think AZINDN is correct. Violet was an emotional vampire that indulged in emotional incest. In this case, and perhaps T. Williams case, his homosexuality is linked to an overpowering mother and am absentee.displaced father. Is every homosexual the result of that? No, but there is a relationship set out by Tennessee Williams in the play.
I don't think that Sebastian was a pedophile, but attracted to the "gay" society of the 30s. Violet's vivacity and money would attract a variety of people, some that would appeal to Seb. Sebastian, by the way, is a saint's name. Poor E. Taylor's character was pure sex and was used to lure a baser group. Did not work out so well. Creates a class as well as secual issue here.

I think Violet's need to silence E's story is as much as need for revenge for being supplanted as to silence the story.<p> Love the movie though.

Wicked.

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[–] gtredshoes 12 years ago

Agree 100%.

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[–] 14 years ago

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