MovieChat Forums > Suddenly, Last Summer Discussion > Can someone explain the sexual bait 'n' ...

Can someone explain the sexual bait 'n' switch?


SPOILER:
Due to censorship of the time, some of the story points are a bit murky but even so, the basic plot twist just doesn't make sense. However, despite dancing all around the subject, it seems pretty clear that each summer Violet (and later, the younger and more attractive Catherine, when Violet was getting too old) would accompany Sebastian on summer excursions, where they acted as bait to attract men. . .who would then "somehow" (big SOMEHOW) wind up having sex with Sebastian, who was gay.

How exactly was this gambit supposed to work? Assuming that there were men who were sexually attracted to a younger Katharine Hepburn (something of a stretch right there) or (far more believably) Elizabeth Taylor and either of the women then approached them, then what?

Clearly, these men must have been heterosexual or they wouldn't have been coming on to these woman in the first place. So what could either of these women possibly have said or done that would suddenly compel these straight guys to immediately switch their attention to a gay man?

Conversely, if these guys really were interested in gay sex, why not approach Sebastian directly and cut out the middle (wo)men? And on the off chance that these guys were male prostitutes who'd do anything for a price, again, neither of the women would be necessary for the transaction.

Even by today's standards, quite a bizarre movie. . . but one that doesn't bear close scrutiny from a logical standpoint.

PS Some posts have suggested that Sebastian was exploiting starving, uneducated natives who would do anything for food or money, regardless of their own personal sexual orientation. If that is true, even less reason for elaborate charade of using Hepburn or Taylor as "bait." At that point, sex-for-money was strictly a survival tactic--not likely that either Hepburn or Taylor would need to charm starving street urchins into "unnatural" acts with their witty banter or beauty.




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[deleted]

[deleted]

I happen to know a foriegner for which this was done. You get a man hard by putting a sexy woman in front of him and you offer him money and/or drugs at the same time. You get someone to do anything for the right price.

In a sperm bank you give a man dirty magazines and the like so he can give his sperm. Same thing.

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One has to consider the time of the story. Sebatian's "summers" with his loving and most indulgent mother occured from the 1920s to the mid 1930s. They were both delightful and charismatic people. Socially shy, Sebastian knew that fun men would naturally gravitate toward him and his female companion with whom he was socially comfortable. Even during intimate moments, I don't believe that Sebastian thought he or his partner of the moment were "degenerates" (an expression used at that time to describe men with known gay tendencies) like some men of the day who were known to seek intimate man-to-man relations any way they could but that Sebastian wouldn't. He wanted to live and love on his own terms. He was a sensitive and intelligent man and he had the wealth to do just what he wanted to do, and he did so until he died in a kind of way the baby sea turtles did. He expected consequences.

He understood his mother and his mother undersood him. Sebastian was a poet by deed. He and his mother both knew that he would never be able to or want to live a conventional life.

After Sebastian's death, Mrs. Venable was afraid that vivid details of Sebastian's death would spoil peoples' memory of him. That's why she wanted to keep her niece quiet about any personal matters she may have learned of but wouldn't have understood as his devoted mother did.

Bottom line: Consider the time period of the story and the wealth that allowed certain men and women to live in ways that defied the usual conventions of the day.

John Martin, 46, Fort Worth, Texas, USA

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Uhhhh...delightful. charismatic...sensitive?!!! I must have stepped out of the room when Miss Hepburn revealed any delightful chacteristics. Unless you appove of her plans to lobotomize La Liz to keep her from telling the truth? Catherine's memories of Sebastian hardly reveal a sensitive, nice fellow.

Violet was crazy as a loon, and clearly Sebastian was, as well. I mean, he's pimping out his mom and his cousin to lure men? Pretty odd stuff. With his money and connections he could have had any willing partner. Of course it is ridiculous to take any part of "Suddenly" seriously. So over-the-top.

But fun, if you go in for Tennessee at his most lurid. Liz is totally miscast, as is poor Monty.

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I've really enjoyed this topic, and SnoozeAlarm's response made me laugh out loud. I have to weigh in and state that Sebastian was not a nice person which is a simplified understatement if I've ever written one. This was a great movie, though, and I loved the over the top acting.

"This is not good for my rage."

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[deleted]

Oh man, snooze alarm, you foiled my plan yet again!! :) I have to be stealthier!

"This is not good for my rage."

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Sensitive?! A Poet?! What?!

Sebastian was a loathsome creature--apparently a sociopath of sorts. And while it is not plainly established in the film, Williams' play makes it clear that while Sebastian was an intelligent, cultured man, years of self-indulgence and the fawning indulgence of others, particularly that of his mother, had utterly blinded him to the fact that he was actually a rather mediocre poet. In truth, he was a second-rate intellect, more morbidly self-centered than original, a polished and well-oiled superficiality. (The good doctor--a true intellect of the first order--surmises that early on and suspects the mother's motives as well.) Clearly, Sebastian was also a sexual degenerate, so utterly consumed by his sexual obsession that he eventually resorted to preying on the most desperate persons of all--homeless, orphaned or abandoned children. The man was a cretin, the sort I’d bitch-slap on sight.


Sebastian, a narcissist who like his mother was manipulative and devoured the attention he so desperately craved from others was eventually devoured himself--literally. How in the world did you miss Williams’ metaphoric double entendre? LOL! That’s both the film’s central theme and the plot’s indispensable linchpin for crying out loud!

As for the breakdown of the film's logic observed by some. . . . It does break down. But that goes more to the restrictions placed on the films of the time when it came to lurid topics. Otherwise, the film is masterfully crafted. The films' logical problems don't become glaringly apparent until after the credits. The ride to the revelation of the plot's central mystery is riveting. And while the acting is a bit dated by its over-the-top dramatics as compared to today’s more natural, method standards, it still works and will continue to hold up over time. Taylor, just like Betty Davis did, pulls it off.

In William's play we understand that Sebastian had always been attracted to very young men. Sebastian was not really shy; rather, he was a cold, demented soul. Oh, he was clever, even fascinating after a fashion, but he loathed himself for his homosexuality, by the way, and especially loathed the young homosexual men he nevertheless craved. The only person to ever really get close to him was his mother. She was very outgoing, deceptively warm, attractive and rich. She was the sort of woman that homosexuals naturally befriended. She was the sophisticated, witty gal pal. The lure wasn't sexual with her. She was the youthfully interesting, fun, charming female friend who understood and accepted them. Get it? But she got older and so did Sebastian. The young, giddy men that Sebastian preferred did not gravitate toward the old crone anymore and were not physically attracted to the middle-aged Sebastian. Hence, he dumped his mother--also a sociopath--and used his lovely, younger cousin to enflame other passions.

In other words, the older and ailing Sebastian dropped a line rigged with a different sort of lure to entice a different sort of fish . . . a hungry, desperate species, not homosexual by nature this time. This was an entirely different modus operandi with disastrous consequences. That's how Taylor's character "failed him", and that's why Sebastian's mother blamed Taylor's character for his demise, imagining in her dementia that Taylor's character was in part responsible for his murder. Protecting Sebastian's reputation was just one aspect of her desire to destroy the poor girl.

The homosexual lovers of Sebastian's youth were first drawn to a younger, cultured and vivacious woman, Sebastian's mother, who completed him and facilitated his alleged shyness.

In other words, folks, after drawing them in with this new, enticing lure, this was the first time Sebastian threw money at his "lovers", such as they were, as his relations with the street urchins were more akin to molestations--brief, sad and disgusting encounters.

Hence, the plot’s logical problems disappear, and we see that the film is merely hamstrung by the artificial restrictions of its time. In truth, the screen writer and director are counting on the viewers’ familiarity with Williams’ original work. They pushed the envelop as far as they could. A more frank exposition regarding the nature of Sebastian's predilection and the reason he targeted street kids--suddenly, last summer!--in his last European tour would have worked better, but innuendo was the best they could do.

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I quite agree about the change that occurred by bringing Catherine along instead of the mother - one clue to this was Catherine saying "suddenly, he switched from the evenings to the beach". So his mother must have "operated" in the evenings, which suggests more elegance, less vulgarity, more witty talk, and less raw sexual appeal. Which he must have tried with Catherine too, except that she was a different woman, with a different appeal (seen, maybe, from the episode with the rapist - she must have inspired physical desire more than intellectual fun). After a few failed evenings, Sebastian must have thought that Catherine's appeal would work better exposed in the sunlight...

Words, Mr. Sullivan, are precious things. And they are not to be tempered with!

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Yes. Precisely!

But more to the point, the males his cousin drew were older than Sebastian liked and . . . heterosexual.

The phrase "suddenly, this or that" is used repeatedly throughout the film, just like it is in Williams' original work. The author is alerting one to the different sort of lure the two women constituted, and also something about the lessening appeal of the aging mother and son, which of course also tells one something about the sort of men Sebastian preferred, i.e., young and impressionable, boys really, late teens, early twenties. (Sebastian is more of a homosexual pederast than a pedophile by nature.) With this phrase Williams maintains the plot's tension as he incrementally reveals more and more about the larger mystery and the nature of Sebastian's changing circumstances. In William's play it becomes evident earlier on in the story than it does in the film that Sebastian was a homosexual and apparently a pederast as well. But Sebastian’s sexual inclinations are just one aspect of the story’s mystery. Williams, who was also a homosexual, by the way, could be freer with that information on the stage. Today, a remake of the screen adaptation could readily resolve the apparent logical problems of the original, but why bother? The film’s a masterpiece just the same.

It’s likely that Williams, who had an enduring relationship with one partner for most of his adult life, had encountered homosexuals like Sebastian in real life: sexually obsessed men who preyed on and manipulated the young. Williams apparently felt a certain degree of shame for his own homosexuality, but he especially despised homosexuals like Sebastian. Also, with respect to “Suddenly, Last Summer”, Williams’ sister Rose, who suffered from schizophrenia, was lobotomized. Williams, who suffered frequent and often severe bouts of depression and drug addiction himself, never forgave his parents for that.

To say that Williams’ upbringing and immediate familiar relations were “dysfunctional” would be an understatement. To say they were “odd” would be a kindness.

Williams was a sickly child. He was raised by an abusive, drunken father and a smothering, overindulgent mother. Though the latter did shape and encourage the fine writer he became, Williams, unlike the homosexual character he created was not enamored by his mother's indulgences nor twisted by them, at least not in the same way that the character Sebastian was. Williams was also mercilessly harassed by a bullying, favored brother. He eventually became estranged from all but his beloved sister, his best friend and ally, whom his parents destroyed. Clearly, Williams drew much of the inspiration for his plays and the sort of characters that inhabited them from the eccentricities and tragedies that frequented his family.

Knowing these things about his family, his life and the original work should tell one what Williams thought of Sebastian and his mother. These were not intended to be sympathetic characters in any way, no more than Catherine's mercenary mother and brother are sympathetic characters. The difference is that while the latter are mostly harmless bumpkins, the former are out-and-out monsters--fascinating perhaps, but monsters nonetheless.

We see a lot of this in Williams’ works, i.e., the abusive and often drunken patriarch; the overbearing matriarch; the favored, howbeit, emotionally crippled sibling; and the sweet, yet troubled and utterly doomed female. But In “Suddenly, Last Summer”, Williams provides the latter a savior and allows for a rare reprieve. Finally, there is also the homosexual--either a monster, a harmless, ineffectual sort racked with shame and self-loathing or a combination thereof.

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Someone finally hit the nail on the head so to speak.

jthompson is correct. Williams young life was no picnic and the understood although somewhat lurid leanings of his work tells a much more dark story of his own childhood.

I for one appreciate his work and the fact that censorship at the time kept it being discussed openly makes this movie even better. Something about the suggestion without the blunt fact gives the subject matter even more appeal.

The twists and turns of the plot make a joy to watch when compared to today's movies.

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Bluemoon, your analysis is why whenever I'm watching an old film on YouTube, I have to come to IMDb to read intelligent comments. Leave a comment like this on YouTube, and someone will call you filthy names, or at the very least tell you to 'shut up' or mark your comment as spam. I always come here if I want to read the comments of thinking people.

I'm familiar with Williams because I teach 'Streetcar' in a college literature course. Your analysis shows great knowledge of Williams's work, and sensitive insight into the author's tortured soul. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

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Even years later these comments are a joy to read.

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I had the same question as the OP and appreciate greatly, this thorough and insightful reply. Thank you!

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Fantastic assessment! Others here would do well to read it, as well as the play. Considering the times, I am amazed at how much of the subject matter was able to be put in this movie at all.

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thank you, cleared that up and positioned this back into my "movies to tell others to see" list.

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"Sebastian, a narcissist who like his mother was manipulative and devoured the attention he so desperately craved from others was eventually devoured himself--literally."

Yup. Catherine noted at some point that he and his mother regarded people essentially as disposable consumables, creatures they themselves were superior to. Sebastian is not horrible because he's gay, he's horrible because he sees people as things to prey on. His attitude would be ghastly in anyone, straight or gay.

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Jesus Christ! Did you have to be so verbose? His mom was the perfect asexual approachable fag-hag and his cousin was her polar opposite, a "hot chick" who only attracted horny heteros. That was his fatal mistake. The heteros never bothered with him when he was with his mum who was a fag-magnet, but with his cousin that's all that came around, and when he used them for sex because they were poor they killed him. End of story. Simple.


I will also add that his mom said he was chaste, so the gay men she attracted to their circle were more for camaraderie and romance (not the same as sex), she knew how to rein her son in from actually have sex with them. But, for the first time when he was with his cousin he was ALSO middle-aged and not able to attract young gay men into his social circle, not under the protection of his mom who knew how to handle his sexuality so that he did not actually act on it, and he resorted to sex with starving straight men for money - probably because he envied the attention they gave to his cousin.



http://tinyurl.com/4skn5qe

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This fellow's commentary, although from a few years back is a great analysis of the character's motivations. That's kind of what I was thinking. Now, I need to read the play.

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Like others have said that they come to these boards to read the intelligent analysis of older films like this one, so do I. I realize bluemoon1059's post is old but it answers the question of the OP and the same one I had after watching Suddenly Last Summer for the first time last night on a public library DVD. I don't have anything to add other than agreeing that it is a well written and acted movie, regardless of the subject matter, the intriguing dialog kept it moving forward, 9/10.

_____

Books and movies are usually better than real life.

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She lured the children, he raped them? Thats my guess.

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I was a little by that myself. If he was using the girls as bait for men, he would be attracting straight men. Or maybe he was only interested in bi-sexual men.

It could be that a crowd of men would be attracted to the bait, and any gay men would include themselves in the crowd to not be suspected of being gay, and those would be the ones that Sebastian would eventually hook up with.

However, I don't think that was the case. As the metaphor of the turtle and everything being devoured, it seems that he favored heterosexual men that were attracted only the women. Plus with the line of the ones that he may have recognized from "boyhood to manhood", it would seem that he was most distraught by being "outed" by one of his previous victims.

I am more inclined to believe that his partners were not consenting assuming they were the age of consent

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You're missing a major point...poverty. These boys/young men are so poor that many of them were willing to perform sex acts for money, food, you name it.

First I rip your clothes off, then you rip my clothes off, then we rip Lindsey's clothes off.

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I have often been upset by not understanding this part of the movie. I think he was horrible to get his own mother and cousin to procured men for him. I think this is what he did however, and he was rich enough to do it. We have to consdider the time also. It was difficult back then to accomplish this. Now a days it is in gay bars restrooms and if you have the money they have the time.

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[deleted]

miriam" I may be wrong, but didn't Sebastian tend to pick places where the natives were really poor and would do anything for a bit of money or food?? The place where he was killed, Cabeza de Lobo or Wolf's Head, was supposedly in Southern Spain, and in those days it was pretty darned poverty stricken, (1937 or 1959 come to that) so I guess he'd pique their interest with a glamorous woman and then just tempt them with money - In the crowd scene on the beach they were calling out "pan, pan" - bread bread, as if they were starving, which was a bit overdone, I thought.

The whole thing was really weird,wasn't it? I think Tennessee Williams plays always have that stifled suppressed sex thing about them, very hot and oppressive. Poor man was born several decades before his time, thse days he may have been a stock broker or something living happily with his boyfriend in a loft in Tribeca, but we'd have been the poorer for it, IMHO.

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[deleted]

I must respectfully disagree with the person who characterized Sebastian as some misunderstood, poetic sole. I think one of the major points of his character was that he was a despicable, vile, sexual degenerate, by anyone's standards-- gay or straight. He was fascinated only by the profane and horrendous; the stage play notes indicate that his belvoed garden has been cultivated to resemble shredded flesh and mutilated sex organs. Sebastian was a predator, a human predator, who with the help of his enabler mom picked at human beings the same way those birds picked at the turtles; and when the end came, he was literally dispatched the same way he had metaphorically lived his life.

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exactly!! thank you for stating it so clearly. Sebastian a horrible character!
watching now first scenes(again).... you can see how batty Violet is. Hepurn awesome in this!

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He was just using Catherine to help him get the attention of the younger guys on the beach. After he made contact he payed cash for their sexual services. Nothing new about this !....I am certain it is still going on worldwide today. People will do anything for food and drug money.






" All that there really is to life is what happens next " from The Misfits 1961

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[deleted]

You are partially correct. What you say applies to Sebastian's summers with Violet, but not with Catherine. With Catherine, he switched from the evenings to the beach, as the cousin herself says in the script. That last summer, he lured lads who were not gay, but who were desperate for money. He used a woman, his cousin, to lure them, and then offered money for sexual favors. He preyed upon their desperation, and in return they preyed upon him.

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[deleted]

The BBC production is available. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013K2ZGI/dvdtalk.

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I was reading some of the older postings and someone named dawhl had a very interesting theory:

"I wonder if anyone notices that Sebastian's trip with Cathy is basically unsuccessful. Whe he traveled with Violet, her witty conversation and elegant style attracted other gay men, who then went on to have sex with shy, retiring Sebastian. But Cathy is only able to attract heterosexual males, so Sebastian has to resort to teenage street boys who are so poor that they will do anything for the money."

So I was wondering if the niece might not have attracted the gay men like his mother did (or it may have been that the mother attracted all types of men & chose which ones to introduce to her son as potentials) left him to find a sexual companion on his own and so he turned to the young boys to buy sex. Maybe this was a new thing & the other boys found out he had paid some boys for sex & they wanted to get money too. Or maybe it was retaliation for what the boys he had used.

Not sure how to explain exactly what I'm trying to say. Could be he had always been gay & had his mother to obtain his men but had now turned to pedophilia to fill his needs. Children are easier to advantage of plus he had money so maybe he thought he could just buy sex since the niece wasn't providing gay men for him.

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I never thought to consider that Sebastian was gay, I always thought he was just an attention hog. But now that you guys bring it up, it makes a lot of sense.

I also just realized there is one part at the beginning when Cathy's family is over to take Sebastion's clothes and the doctor picks up a picture of Cathy, the doctor says, "Maybe he liked her?" and the nephew laughs. That seems to hint that he knew Sebastian might have been gay.

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[deleted]

True. Very true.

And when you go back and reconsider it all, view the movie through that lens; Hepburn's Violet is truly frightening. A monster who gave birth to another monster.

"Hot sun, cool breeze, white horse on the sea, and a big shot of vitamin B in me!"

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The notion that a gay man needs to use his mother to lure other gay men is just ludicrous.

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It makes sense from a strictly mercenary POV--especially when you consider that Sebastian and his mother were essentially consumers. Sebastian wasn't using Mrs. Venable as a sexual lure, but as a monetary/status one. If you want access to a wider, more interesting pool of people, why not leverage your mother's fortune and wanderlust into attracting the kind of men you want--sophisticated, 20-something, easily impressed by wealth and worldliness. His use of Catherine--yeah, that _was_ more as sex bait because he was trolling for younger prey. (And the fact he was trolling in these particular waters shows that he had most likely gotten such a Dorian Gray-type rep. as a user that he had to prey on a class of boys who would be more vulnerable.)

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[deleted]

1. heterosexual men have been known to be with other men in a "gay for pay" situation.
2. Poverty and starving in the streets can make many people do anything for money, including drug addiction.
3. I think Tennessee Williams, who did write alot about dysfunctional families and mental illness (aka, Blanche Dubois in a streetcar named desire) decided to add a crazy mother and cousin to enhance the storyline.

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"How exactly was this gambit supposed to work? Assuming that there were men who were sexually attracted to a younger Katharine Hepburn (something of a stretch right there) or (far more believably) Elizabeth Taylor approached them, then what?"

LOL: I was wondering the exact same thing!

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