not credited


Does anyone know the name and background of the lady who played Madame Orsini who received the 'public chastisement'. it seems a shame that she was not given a credit after such a high octave perfomance.

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[deleted]

I've also been trying to find her name. It's unusual for not even IMDB to have it. Did she take the role under the condition that her name never be revealed?
When I saw this movie on TV as a little girl in the 50's, I held my breath when
the older man lifted her skirt, then exhaled when the scene immediately switched
to her face. Now, they'd show everything! I read the book afterward to see if the scene was in the book, and if she really got hit on her bare bottom. Yes, the scene was in the book, and she really got hit on her bare bottom. Except in the book, she was not the wife of Orsini. The part of her husband was eliminated when the movie was made. But I guess that the producers wanted to keep such a powerful scene, so they made her, for the movie, Orsini's wife.
I always felt that the idea of an adult woman being spanked publicly on her bare
bottom such an unusual idea (except maybe in a sex novel) for an author to come up with that I wondered if Romain Gary based it on something that really happened.

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It is possible that Romain Gary may have been influenced by the incidents of revenge meted out to french women after the end of the german occupancy during world war 2. I have read about how some women cafe owners were subjected to public ‘bare derriere’ spankings for allowing the german troops to socialise at their establishments (how were they supposed to have stopped them?) - it was deemed collaboration with the enemy. This was at the lower end of spiteful reprisals handed out as punishments after the germans were ousted from their country. The really nasty stuff was reserved for women who were regarded as ‘horizontal collaborators’. nowadays, naturally the french people are rather embarrassed about these episodes and much as been ‘air brushed out’ from their version of history.
I wonder what the censors of the time made of this scene? Obviously, as Operabuff states, nothing was really shown, but there was a certain gratification on the faces of the people watching. To put this in some sort of context, in 1992 when an australian mini series called the ‘brides of christ’ was shown on british TV, a scene was completely deleted - it showed a teenage unknown, called Naomi Watts (whatever happened to her?) and another girl, bent over for a whacking by a nun on their backsides. Several years later i watched the series again, on a satellite channel and the scene was retained. This time the following scene made some sense!

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Those revenge episodes after the war were examples of displaced anger on a massive scale. They couldn't do anything to the Germans, so they went after the women. I remember the leering faces of the people in the movie. Ironically, in the book, the scene was not "erotic", and no one leered. We, as the readers, do
not actually "see" the spanking in the book. The way Romain Gary wrote it, an
eyewitness is talking about it, after the fact, to another person. The eyewitness says that it probably sounded erotic, but that it really wasn't. The
man doing the spanking was so old, and he did his task so gravely, that it just
seemed to the onlookers (none of which leered) that Madame Challut (her name in
the book) had simply done something very wrong, and was being justly punished for it. But I suppose some directors feel that movies need at least a touch of
eroticism.

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It's interesting that this scene was completely different in the original book. But i suppose that for the sake of dramatic effect (and the scene was very dramatic) they decided that it must appear. I wonder if the film was remade now - and i would have thought that there would always be a chance of this - it had a good story line, which is perhaps even more pertinent in 2006 than it was back then - whether in these politically correct times this scene would be deleted.
Perhaps in a remake the targets of the group could be the heads of huge global companies who decimate natural habitat of wild animals for the sake of a few more dollars profit. If the spanking scene was retained, perhaps the recipient of it, could be some air head super model, who struts her stuff on the cat walk covered in real fur. Any suggestions who would fill this role - whoever it will be, I'm sure of one thing - she would definitely get a credit!

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Speaking of credit, back to the original question. Surely someone must know
who played her. Unless there is some specific reason not to say (like maybe
she was a rebellious incognito princess, and revealing her name would
embarrass her royal family!), I would love to know.

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I guess it will go down as a mystery to all except those who worked on the film. For years, I have been trying to find out who the actress was, but, like many others, I have come up empty. It is a shame, for she certainly acted her " part " well !

My ex-fiancee, upon seeing the film with me a few years ago, remarked that Madame Orsini deserved nothing less than to be spanked on her bare bottom in public by the paternal-looking professor Qvist, because she had butchered so many elephants, and enjoyed doing it. However, we disagreed as to which was worse for Madame Orsini--the physical discomfort of the spanking, or more likely, the humiliation of being spanked bare in front of her friends/associates. We therefore concluded that since she and her husband were both obnoxious snobs who always had their 'noses in the air', the spanking was done in order to bring them both down a notch in dignity.

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Ironically, the eyewitness in the book said the same thing, that it was deserved. If this is a work of pure fiction, then fine. But if it was based on
something that actually happened (as I remarked in a previous thread), then I
find that remark a little disquieting. Because where do we draw the line? Is a
person ever justified for doing physical violence on another when the other person is doing something that the first person disapproves of? If this was
a true case, then all big game hunters should have been "publicly flogged".
Theodore Roosevelt, during just one trip to Africa, killed over 500 animals
and birds - including elephants. And he enjoyed it, too!

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Recall that in an earlier nightclub scene, Sir Orsini publicly ridiculed Morel, Minna and Forsythe ( the latter two as a prostitute and a drunk ) when they originally formed their alliance. The Orsinis' clearly thought of themselves as being socially superior to just about everyone around them and made no attempt to conceal their snobbery. In Morel's opinion, what better way to make his point than to have Madame Orsini publicly humiliated while simultaneously being punished like a child. It would be the sort of thing both of them would find difficult to socially recover from.

This may have been simply a fantasy of the author to have it acted out in his book and on screen. It is also important to remember that many viewers would consider the scene humorous. It is comparable to the school bully being chastised by the principal in front of those he frequently intimidated. Suddenly, the gap between the socialites and the second-class is narrowed significantly.

I don't think a public spanking or flogging would have affected the men in the same manner.

I've often wondered: Can you imagine the argument the Orsinis' must have had after everyone left ? As if she expected him to stop this charade with all the guns trained on him !!

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[deleted]

I wondered about the argument, too. In the book, the eyewitness said she asked
her husband for help, but that that was a little ridiculous considering all
the guns pointed at him. I based my opinion on having read the book as well
as having seen the movie. The book is a little different. In the book, she is
Madame Challut, and not Madame Orsini. (In the book, Orsini is not married.
The part of Mr. Challut was deleted when the movie was made. They apparently
wanted to keep that scene in, so they made her, for the movie, Madame Orsini.)
I remember Orsini making fun of Morel. In the book, however, the Challuts and
Morel have no previous acquaintance. They appear only in that one scene. Morel
targets Madame Challut simply because he finds out that she holds ther women's
record for big game hunting. The scene in the movie, I admit, is somewhat
amusing. It's the scene in the book that I'm uneasy with, and that carries
over when I watch the movie.

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I've also read the book. One of the things the eyewitness mentions in his account of the incident was that Madame Challut's appeal to her husband for help was very unusual. He is quoted as saying it was the first time anyone remembered her asking for help. He suggests that she was a domineering woman, even to her husband. And in view of that, Madame Challut was receiving a 'beneficial' lesson. ( Translated: she deserved it ).

Another difference from the film: The observer is quoted as saying," ....and to see LITTLE Annette Challut wagging her bare bottom under the patriarch's blows was quite a sight indeed." There was nothing 'little' about the actress who portrayed Madame Orsini in the film. She is very tall and, as my ex-fiancee pointed out at the time, so is Prof. Qvist. He is, in fact, the tallest in Morel's group, as is shown when he first throws her over his shoulder as though she were a sack of flour.

It is unfortunate that she was not credited. Perhaps she desperately wanted to get into acting and this was the only role she could get. Or maybe she really needed money, while at the same time being too embarassed about the role to have her name revealed. Perhaps the actress was as humiliated as her character.

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Yoy may be right about the humiliation. To the end of her days, the late,
great Myrna Loy said that the scene she hated doing the most was the
spanking scene in The Thin Man Goes Home - said it was undignified. She tried
to get the scene eliminated, but to no avail.

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The irony of the spanking scene in The Thin Man Goes Home is that the spanking is so light, almost playful. Myrna Loy is barely being tapped with a rolled up newspaper. Her husband, played by William Powell I believe, also seems to be playfully going about it. I fail to see why Ms. Loy felt it to be undignified.

The spanking scene in The Roots Of Heaven was quite different. One is led to believe Qvist is not holding back at all with his smacks. And since it is perceived that Madame Orsini is receiving it on her bare bottom, and in public, it would seem to me that this spanking is far more undignified. Not to mention very painful !

If I were an actress faced with the choice of which spanking scene was to be performed on my person, the Thin Man scene would by far be the more dignified and less humiliating scene.

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I think the only way that we are ever going to discover the identity of the actress who played Madame Orsini, is if, someone that worked on the film (either in front or behind the camera) reads this thread and reveals it to the world. I find it hard it imagine that the actress motives for animosity would be the resulting embarrassment or humiliation, after all she would have read the script before hand and would have been totally conversant as to what the scene involved. Any subsequent embarrassment would have only been caused by encounters with people she was acquainted with personally and they would obviously have known her name! Maybe she was related to a member of the cast and they didn't want to be accused of nepotism. Or maybe it was just a simple mistake when the graphics were being artworked - they just forgot her!

It is interesting to read about Myrna Loy's negative reaction to the scene when she was spanked (very lightly) by William Powell - perhaps Powell deliberately kept messing up the scene so by the 56th take that newspaper was starting to smart! I think Myrna would have been appalled at the scene between sean young and patrick bergen in love crimes (interestingly this scene was cut on british TV). Or more recently the scene in "secretary". She is probably spinning turbo like in her grave!

I have read that Jane Russell refused to be spanked in the film 'The Outlaw'. Considering that this was her first film she must have felt pretty strongly about this and must have had quite some influence over howard hughes!

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Myrna Loy apparently had strong ideas about her dignity. She was offered the
role of Dora Charleston in the murder mystery spoof Murder By Death, and
turned it down flat when she found out that David Niven would pinch her rear
in one scene.

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Myrna Loy must have been either very prudish or way ahead of her time regarding politically correct behaviour. Still she had standards and stuck by them, or she was significantly well off and famous by then, that she could afford to turn work down. i wonder if she had been offered the role of Dora Charleston when she was an up and coming actress, whether she would have refused it on the basis of losing her dignity? One thing is for sure - she would have turned down the part of Madam Orsini!

Operabuff your knowledge of movie trivia is amazing!

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Thank you. I have been reading movie books and history books since I was old
enough to read, and now with the Internet, I'm amazed at all the information
that is at our fingertips. When we play Trivial Pursuit, they all want me for
movie and history questions, but not for sports! I don't even know who plays
in the World Series. I guess we all have our strong and weak points.

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I agree with Marty. Operabuff, you have amazing recall for little known facts !! If those games of Trivial Pursuit were strictly about books & movies, you would frequently destroy your opposition !

I do have one question about The Roots Of Heaven. You stated earlier that the spanking scene in the movie was not so disturbing. In fact, you agreed with my assertion that it was more so, amusing. You then added that the book scene was what you were uncomfortable with. I can think of several possible reasons for this. What are your reasons ?

Oh,by the way, I could handle the sports questions in Pursuit ( laughing )! So, we'd probably make a good trivia team !!

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I find the scene uncomfortable because I don't feel that any one person
has the right to physically attack a person, or destroy a person's
property just because the person disapproves of what the other is doing.
If that's the case, Madame Challut would have been in her rights to do
the same thing thing to Morel (or to hire someone to do it for her) if he
did something she didn't approve. For example, I own a mink coat that I
sometimes wear to the opera. I always wonder if someone hiding in a corner
is going to come out and throw a can of paint at me. If that person has a
right to destroy my coat if he/she disapproves of wearing fur, then I have
a right to key scratch that person's car if he/she parks lengthwise and
takes up two parking places.

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Duly noted. And I agree with that. No one has the right to impose their beliefs on another person. I guess the reason the spanking scene was so amusing to me is because the Orsinis ( or Challuts in the book ) always seemed to enjoy lording their status in society over those whom they deemed beneath them. One would assume after the spanking that neither of them would have been able to look down on others any longer. The humiliation amongst their friends and associates would have been evident. But they still would have returned to their hunting ways eventually, which is what Morel, et.al. were trying to prevent.

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Do you still check this thread, Marty and jms? I hope so - I have some updated
information for you. I asked the question about Madame Orsini's identity on
Turner Classic Movies. I was given a web site to click onto, where there was
a lively discussion about it. If you want to check it out, it's
http://www.network54.com/Forum/209127/thread/1178404460/last-1201596373/Madam+
Orsini, or you can go to Turner Classic Movies, click on message boards,
click on Information, Please, and then click on Actress In Roots Of Heaven.
One person thought it might be Mollie Sugden, who played Mrs. Slocombe in Are
You Being Served?. The person said their voices were identical. I never saw the
show, so I can't say. All the others seemed to think it was an actress named
Jacqueline Fogt. If that's the case, it makes sense. Roots Of Heaven was done in
1958, and Jacqueline Fogt's first listed movie is 1960. One of the people said
that they ran the video slowly, frame by frame, and that the actress really had
a bare bottom, although it's not shown for very long. Perhaps she was first starting out, and had to take what she could get. Then, after her career really
started, maybe she wanted to put this behind her. (No pun intended!) Jacqueline
Fogt played Ludmilla in Love And Death, and she played Charlotte in What's New,
Pussycat?. I am going to try to rent one or both of these movies, and see if
I agree with them about Jacqueline Fogt playing Madame Orsini.

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I just rented Love And Death, and I am convinced that Jacqueline Fogt played
Madame Orsini. The faces are identical.

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Yes indeed Operabuff ! I have done some Internet research also in the last few months. I stumbled onto some of the links you mentioned. One of them included a still from Love And Death, in which the main actor in the picture was Harold Gould. But the actress in the background, credited as Jacqueline Fogt, convinced me that this was also Madame Orsini from The Roots Of Heaven. I do indeed believe it is her.

After 50 years, the mystery appears to be solved.

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One of the people said
that they ran the video slowly, frame by frame, and that the actress really had
a bare bottom, although it's not shown for very long. Perhaps she was first starting out, and had to take what she could get.


She was lucky she wasn't playing the part today. It probably would have had called for Jacqueline Fogt to run around in her birthday suit instead (and it wouldn't have been implied, either).

No blah, blah, blah!

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I find the scene uncomfortable because I don't feel that any one person
has the right to physically attack a person, or destroy a person's
property just because the person disapproves of what the other is doing.
If that's the case, Madame Challut would have been in her rights to do
the same thing thing to Morel (or to hire someone to do it for her) if he
did something she didn't approve. For example, I own a mink coat that I
sometimes wear to the opera. I always wonder if someone hiding in a corner
is going to come out and throw a can of paint at me. If that person has a
right to destroy my coat if he/she disapproves of wearing fur, then I have
a right to key scratch that person's car if he/she parks lengthwise and
takes up two parking places.


Agreed. I found myself losing sympathy for Morel's cause because of his actions. There were other ways to get their message across without having to humiliate a woman, however unpleasant she was.

No blah, blah, blah!

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Your obsession is creepy.

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The irony of the spanking scene in The Thin Man Goes Home is that the spanking is so light, almost playful. Myrna Loy is barely being tapped with a rolled up newspaper. Her husband, played by William Powell I believe, also seems to be playfully going about it. I fail to see why Ms. Loy felt it to be undignified.

The spanking scene in The Roots Of Heaven was quite different. One is led to believe Qvist is not holding back at all with his smacks. And since it is perceived that Madame Orsini is receiving it on her bare bottom, and in public, it would seem to me that this spanking is far more undignified. Not to mention very painful !

If I were an actress faced with the choice of which spanking scene was to be performed on my person, the Thin Man scene would by far be the more dignified and less humiliating scene.


I think what Myrna was saying was she didn't like the idea of a husband spanking his wife in principle. The spanking before the camera probably wasn't a big deal to her because her friend was doing it with a newspaper, was non-violent and not erotic, but she most likely didn't like the idea of tacitly sanctioning it.

Having said that, it's nothing compared to Madame Orsini's comeuppance or even what Jacqueline Fogt had to go through (which was only implied). As for the pain inflicted on the latter fictional character, I would imagine Madame Orsini would have taken a hundred blows to her gown-covered bottom than just one bare-bottom smack. The humiliation of being exposed that way had to have been far more hurtful to her.

No blah, blah, blah!

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That may be partially true about Myrna, but I think that she had very definite ideas about dignity, and that anything involving her rear was undignified. She said that she was offered the role of Dora Charleston in the murder movie spoof Murder By Death. She hesitated, because it would have been Myrna playing Myrna. But the clincher came when she found out that David Niven would pinch her rear in one scene. She said that was a definite NO!!

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By the way, I looked up Roots Of Heaven on Wikipedia. Jacqueline Fogt is credited as the one who gets spanked. Since she is still not listed on IMDB, I guess everyone knows now but them.

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Does anyone know what's the name of the character in the film, and the actor that played the blond poacher that was caught by the main character at the beginning of the film, and that got trampled to death by the elephants at the end?

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That may be partially true about Myrna, but I think that she had very definite ideas about dignity, and that anything involving her rear was undignified. She said that she was offered the role of Dora Charleston in the murder movie spoof Murder By Death. She hesitated, because it would have been Myrna playing Myrna. But the clincher came when she found out that David Niven would pinch her rear in one scene. She said that was a definite NO!!


Not surprised. Her age may have been a factor in her decision, too.

No blah, blah, blah!

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