Hi,
I hate to be an anorak about this but IMDB is wrong when they say the North Korean Migs were actually Republic F84 Thunderjets. They were actually F84F Thundersteaks. The Thunderjets had straight wings whereas the Thunderstreak's wings were swept.
Tack
Thanks for the information.
shareThe producers could not obtain MiG-15s because the Soviet Union was the Cold war enemy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-15
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-84F_Thunderstreak
I preferred the Sabre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-86_Sabre
Good point. There's a lot of guys out there, me included, who are big fans of historical war planes.
It would have been great to portray real MiG-15s and MiG-15bis jets in THE HUNTERS, but as we all know, the movie was filmed in 1958. The Soviets and the Red Chinese weren't exactly excited about renting out their jets to American film producers. This was also decades before CGI, where computerized images of MiG-15s could have been used.
THE HUNTERS is silly in depicting the 'MiG-15' jets blowing up whenever an F-86 Sabre jet hits it with .50 caliber machinegun bullets. This was not STAR WARS. The historical accounts reflect that it was actually difficult for sabre jets to shoot down MiG-15s with .50 caliber bullets. Actual black-and-white gun camera footage from Korean War sabre jets proves this. In order to inflict fatal damage to a MiG-15, the .50 caliber bullets would either have to strike the canopy, hitting the pilot, or travelling up the tailpipe to damage the turbojet by hitting the turbofan blades. Otherwise it often took almost the whole sabre jet's ammo load to make enough penetrating hits along the MiG's fuselage to mortally damage it.
NATO assigned the code word, FAGOT, to the MiG-15 and MiG-15bis (improved) jets. I never learned how, 'fagot' was pronounced. Does anyone know? I presume that fagot refers to a bundle of firewood tied up.
With the passage of time, several revisions of the air war over northern Korea have emerged.
1) Surviving, elderly Russian MiG-15 pilots have come out of the shadows to brag about flying MiG-15 jets against the American F-86 Sabres, F84 Thunderstreaks, and F-80 Shooting Stars, and on rare occasions against U.S. Navy Panther jets.
2) One or two of these retired Russian pilots brag about being aces against the Americans. The old, retired Russian fighter pilots verify that it was difficult for Sabre jet .50 caliber machinegun bullets to destroy MiG-15s. The MiG-15 fighter jet carried heavier-hitting, dual 23mm cannon and one, 30mm explosive cannon. But the Russians confirm that it was extremely difficult to coordinate the 23mm and 30mm cannons. The trajectories of both calibers were completely different. Also the ammunition capacity was completely inadequate.
3) The U.S. Air Force quietly revised its Korean War-era victory claims of 16 MiG kills to 1 sabre jet loss, downward, to a more realistic, 7 to 1. Modern military historians debate this even further, arguing a more realistic kill ratio should be 5 to 1, even as low as 3 to 1.
But far from diminishing or tarnishing the honor and prestige of the U.S. Air Force, take into context the historical period. If the Air Force was indeed fighting far more skilled and highly trained Russian pilots, then a kill ratio of 7 to 1, even 5 to 1, or as low as 3 to 1 would carry more honor and prestige than 16 to 1 against second rate, poorly-trained, and inexperienced Chinese and North Korean MiG pilots.
4) One communist Chinese MiG-15 pilot did in fact emerge a 5-kill ace. He would later rise to 3-star general rank in the Red Chinese Air Force. MILITARY HISTORY magazine interviewed him several years ago. In admirable modesty, the retired Chinese Air Force general complimented the skill and determination of the American fighter pilots and went further to attribute 3 out of his 5 kills to mistakes the American fliers committed which allowed him to shoot them down. One of his kills was a F-80 Shooting Star, 13-kill ace, who decided to fly alone without a wingman. The wingman experienced engine trouble and returned to base, but the American ace elected to continue alone, violating the axiom of modern fighter combat, never fly alone lest you be easily bounced. And that's exactly what happened to him.
5) The U.S. Government and the U.S. Air Force continue to remain mute on the subject of Russian and Warsaw Pact pilots flying MiG-15 jets during the Korean War. The response continues to be either silence, denial, or 'cannot confirm and cannot deny'. Given the proof today, there's no practical reason to withhold the facts from the American people. At the time, both the American and the Soviet governments greatly desired to limit the conflict to the Korean peninsula and avoid escalation into world war. Neither government wanted to admit, much less allow the exposure of its pilots fighting each other. The evidence is anecdotal. American fighter jet pilots have been known to recount peering into the cockpits of MiG jets at rare incidents of close-in maneuvering and seeing Caucasian faces of MiG pilots. One American fighter pilot said that he saw red hair, a distinctly non-Asian trait. American military policy at the time endeavored to silence its jet fighter pilots. Reputedly, threats of military disciplinary action were implemented to silence American fighter pilots who claimed to have seen or witnessed Caucasian pilots in MiG-15 jets.
6) At least one F-86 Sabre jet crash landed in far northern Korea almost intact and fell into the hands of the Soviet government through the obliging Red Chinese and North Korean authorities. According to one written source, the Soviets were so impressed by the F-86 that serious consideration was given to duplicating the American fighter jet. But the ultimate decision was to drop the idea. The superior MiG-17 'Fresco' made its flying debut in 1951 and later deployment at the end of 1953 and early 1954. The MiG-17 possessed superior speed, climb rate, and maximum ceiling to the F-86 A, E, and F models. Only the upcoming F-86H would be able to cope with the MiG-17 with near matching but still not equal capabilities to the Fresco. The MiG-17 Fresco was something of a perfected MiG-15, the outward plane configurations being closely similar but the MiG-17 design was virtually a new design. So capable and reliable would the MiG-17 Fresco prove that it became a widely exported jet fighter and continued into wide use in the 1960s Middle East and the Vietnam conflict of the same time period.
Thanks for the post Jeff, very interesting.
sharevery belated Thanks to jeffyoung1 for an excellent summary of aircraft of the time.
I never learned how, 'fagot' was pronounced.
Just like the slur applied to gay men. It does mean a bundle of sticks, but I shouldn't be surprised if the alternate meaning was intended as well.
The U.S. Air Force quietly revised its Korean War-era victory claims of 16 MiG kills to 1 sabre jet loss,
To be fair, Everyone over-claims. It seems to be a natural reaction due to the confusion of war and the optimism of people. All nationalities:, fighter pilots, bomber gunners, and anti-aircraft gunners have done this and still do. The US Air Force likely realized the initial claims were too high, but publicized them in the interests of morale. The subsequent numbers were their best guess. It's only since the end of the Cold War and the opening of Soviet records that we've been able to get a much more accurate picture, as jeffyoung1 noted. Still, rather impressive numbers especially considering the inadequate armament.
The historical accounts reflect that it was actually difficult for sabre jets to shoot down MiG-15s with .50 caliber bullets.
The Navy, incidentally, went to 20 mm guns as soon as they could after WWII. They would have done so during the war except for production problems with American-made 20 mm Hispano cannon. Those proved more effective and the USAF went to 20 mm guns later in the fifties. The British went directly to the 20 mm from rifle caliber machine guns early in WWII.
Dave, I gotta post this old post I made (and yeah, the expert I am referring to IS JoeB from TN):
On another blog I 'infest', there exists another fellow who posts QUITE expertly on the air to air war in Korea...He has pored over the records of the US & other UN Participants AND also accessed the published unit histories of the Russian Fighter regiments that participated in the Korean fighting as well as the Chinese records. He has come up with the following losses for the 'Red' side: 'around' 300 losses for the Russians (the units recorded the pilots who were lost in the fighting in their unit histories), around 220 Chinese losses & the Norks about 100 losses (those figures are far less specific). As for F-86 air-to-air losses the most likely is around 90...if you count damaged beyond repair or 'missing in action' at the place & time of a dogfight, the losses 'might' be around 110...so even the worst case kill ratio is still around 6-to-1 in favor of the F-86s.
Just like the slur applied to gay men. It does mean a bundle of sticks, but I shouldn't be surprised if the alternate meaning was intended as well.
To be fair, Everyone over-claims. It seems to be a natural reaction due to the confusion of war and the optimism of people. All nationalities:, fighter pilots, bomber gunners, and anti-aircraft gunners have done this and still do. The US Air Force likely realized the initial claims were too high, but publicized them in the interests of morale. The subsequent numbers were their best guess. It's only since the end of the Cold War and the opening of Soviet records that we've been able to get a much more accurate picture, as jeffyoung1 noted. Still, rather impressive numbers especially considering the inadequate armament.
The Soviet Honchos may have claimed it but they sure didn't really get that many...sure they forced the B29s out of Mig Alley but they were unable to prevent fighter bombers from operating over the length & breadth of the Korean Peninsula. Anyway, my 'source' was able to review the Russian memoirs/unit histories of their operations in Korea and like I said above: The VERY HIGHEST possible loss for Sabers was 100-that includes damaged beyond repair & 'M.I.A.' at the right place & time. Soviet losses numbered nearly 300; I am not factoring the Chinese or the Norks in this-They must have accounted for some of the Sabers that were lost, though I am certain that the Russian pilots probably accounted for the lion's share, just based on sheer skill levels. That other guy found the Russian Pilots' records of encounters to be more or less 'spot on': if they say they engaged 'swept wing jets', the Sabers definitely got a corresponding encounter at the same place & time. The only drawback is they didn't shoot down as many as they claimed.
shareSurely, you're entitled to your opinion but there's no way the US aces had the edge over the Soviet ones during the "Honcho Period".
During the time that the "Honchos" (the nickname given by the Sabre pilots to excellent MiG pilots) were in Korea, between April 1951 and January 1952, they shot down or damaged beyond repair 142 UN aircraft against 68 losses, an overall 2:1 kill ratio. Their most successful month was October 1951, when the Soviet MiG-15s bagged 7 F-86s, 6 F-84Es, 2 RF-80As and one F-80C, one Meteor and 10 B-29As -24 victories- and suffered only 8 MiGs lost. During that period over 30 Soviet MiG-15 pilots became aces, among them the already mentioned Nikolai Sutyagin (21 kills); and also Yevgeni Pepelyayev (19), Lev Shchukin (17), Sergei Kramarenko (13), Mikhail Ponomaryev (11), Dmitri Samoylov (10), etc.
...most of the claims of the four top scoring aces -Sutyagin, Pepelyayev, Shchukin and Kramarenko- proved to be very reliable, as did the claims of several other aces, e.g. Aleksandr Smorchkov, Stepan Bahayev and Dmitri Samoylov.
Further, the overall 2:1 kill ratio of the "Honcho Period" clearly shows that the Russian Aces at that time gained at least a slight edge against their skillful American counterparts.
So, why did the Russian pilots in Korea scored so high? It is an interesting question, and it has more than a possible answer. One of them is because -at least in 1951- they were using better tactics:
The Soviet fighters were guided to the air battlefield by good ground control, which directed them to the most advantageous position.
The MiG-15s always operated in pairs, as part of a team called "the sword and the shield," with an attacking leader ("the sword") covered by a wingman ("the shield").
The squadrons operated in 6-plane groups, divided in 3 pairs, each composed of a leader and a wingman:
The first pair ("the sword pair") of MiG-15s attacked the enemy Sabres.
The second pair ("the shield pair") protected the first pair.
The third pair remained above, with a panoramic view of how the battle evolved, supporting the "sword pair" or the "shield pair" depending the situation. This pair had more freedom than the others, because it could also attack targets of opportunity, such as lone Sabres that had lost their wingmen.
Experience was also a key factor, and the Russian pilots had a great deal of it. Most of the regimental and squadron commanders in 1951 were WW2 aces, e.g. Georgii Lobov (19 victories), Aleksandr Vasko (15 kills), Aleksandr Kumanichkin (30), Grigorii Ohay (6). So, the Russian pilots were as experienced as the best American WW2 Aces of the 4th and 51st Wings, like Francis Gabreski, Glenn Eagleston, Walker Mahurin, Robert Thyng, George Davis and many others.
The MiG-15 Fagot was better than the F-86 in many aspects (superior climb rate, faster acceleration, more powerful weaponry) but the F-86 Sabre compensated that with more stable diving, a better gunsight, and a g-suit for their pilots, allowing them to resist the tremendous g-forces involved in dogfights.
So, the edge were the men in the cockpits, and in the "Honcho Period" the Soviets had such slight edge. Quoting Chuck Yeager: "It's the man, not the machine".
Additionally, Korea was for the Russian MiG-15 pilots a "target-rich environment."
In April-May 1951 there were only two regiments of MiG-15s in Manchuria, with a total of only 72 MiGs (despite the fantastic US reports which talked about 200 MiGs in China at that time).
These six dozen MiGs faced about 700 UN aircraft, odds of 10 to 1.
The arrival of the 3 regiments of the 303rd IAD reduced the odds to 4 to 1 by October 1951, but the Soviets actually never enjoyed the numerical superiority so often mentioned in US sources.
By July 1953 the Russians had about 300 MiG-15s in the theater (plus a similar number of Chinese MiGs) against 1,000 UN aircraft (297 of them F-86E/Fs, plus a similar number of F-84s).
Taking into account such figures, it is clear that the Russians always found the Korean skies full of American aircraft, and that's why scores of 15, 10 or 8 were not uncommon.
All these factors created opportunities for the Russian pilots to pile up bigger scores than their American counterparts in 1951.
Summarizing, the Russian aces dominated the struggle for air superiority over "MiG Alley" in the April 1951-January 1952 period, and earned the respect of their Americans adversaries (the nicknames "Honcho" and "Casey Jones").
Fired Upon
On 17 January 1952 Kramarenko flew his last combat mission in Korea. During it he damaged an F-86, but was not only shot down himself but also fired upon by the Sabre flier while he was hanging defenseless in his parachute. He himself describes the events:
“17 January was a heavy day for me. The radar station picked up the approach of a group of ground attack aircraft on their way to Anju. Our regiment was sent out to repulse them. Arriving in the area of combat operations, we just spotted the last group of Thunderjets sliding along above the clouds to our south. Vishnyakov went to go after them, but we were not able to attack as the Thunderjets went into a cloud and we found ourselves over the coastline. Not seeing the usual Sabre escort, we made a left turn and began a level climb and had just turned around when I spotted two groups of Sabres diving down to attack Vishnyakov. We were engaging under the most unfavorable conditions, but nevertheless we beat off the first attack of the Sabres and, by using maneuver, climbed back up to about 9000 meters. At that moment another group of Sabres showed up, and moved to come down to attack the regimental commander’s group from above. As for me, as I virtually had no speed due to the climb, managed to increase my climb angle and at 600 meters I opened fire on the Sabre group leader. His aircraft ran through my tracers, and I saw several explosions on it. He increased his dive and angle and headed down. Turning around, I saw that my group was also being attacked from above by a group of Sabres. I gave the command: “Everybody break!” and we turned under the Sabres, but now I saw that my rear wingman, Senior Lieutenant Voronoy, was being fired on by two Sabres. Voronoy went into a sharp dive and headed down. I returned to the battle. At that moment my third pair came under attack from two Sabres coming down from above which, as they opened fire, cut through them and headed out directly towards above me. I followed them, firing at the wingman. He, evidently damaged, turned and banked over into a dive. I was not able to go after the damaged aircraft, as I suddenly felt a sharp blow and the aircraft around me began to rapidly spin. I kicked hard left rudder, but the controls did not respond. It was so sudden that one wing suddenly broke off. I made the decision to bail out of the uncontrollable aircraft, as it was now in a vertical spin downward. With a great deal of difficulty – as I was rammed into the left side of the aircraft – I managed to get my hand on the ejection seat control lever and pull it. A sharp blow momentarily pressed down on my eyes, so I have no idea how I flew out of the aircraft. As I came back to life I was falling together with the seat, I released the harness and kicked out of the seat with my legs. I could see that the clouds below me were coming up rapidly, so I pulled on the parachute ripcord ring, and after I yanked it the canopy opened. I came to a sharp halt, and now I was floating under the parachute.
Above me was the blue sky, below me the clouds. They were about 800 meters below. I glanced around and saw a Sabre coming at me very quickly. He came on for a few more seconds, and suddenly I saw the smoke and tracers that he was firing his six machine guns. Death was coming for me, and all I could do was wait as he came after me. Fortunately, the Sabre was about 800-1000 meters away, and the tracers flew by tens of meters below me. But for those very few seconds the tracers began to head up towards my legs and only stopped a few meters away. Perhaps at the last second I could pull my legs up at the moment that I felt the bullets were about to hit my legs. But at that precise moment the tracers stopped. I could see the Sabre bank away sharply when 500 meters away, and passing about 50 meters away from me, make a quick turn. I got nauseous from his jet exhaust as he passed. I saw the Sabre make another turn and come back to attack me again. Now I understood that he wanted to get even for the death of his leader, but then I didn’t want to think about that so silently waited for the end to come. The second time, I thought, he won’t miss. I looked down. The cloud was now much closer – perhaps 50-100 meters away. I thought: ‘What will happen first – will I go into the cloud or will his tracers hit me? If the Sabre opens fire, he won’t miss.’ But when the Sabre closed to 800 meters and new tracers flew from it, I poked into the cloud. It immediately became quite dark, humid, but it was a beautiful sensation that I was safe, as he could not see me and I did not see the approaching Sabre and his tracers."
Of course, the Russian "Honchos" would never mistakenly over count their kill rate, like every other fighter pilot in the world. They were too good.
It's a shame that the Soviets were so damn good at everything. We might have won the Cold War had they not been such a formidable opponent.
Dannieboy, the Russian Honchos can claim all they want; thing is there were not that many Sabers in theater. If those Russian claims were anywhere near 'correct' the Saber force would have been pretty much eradicated and the surviving pilots demoralized.
Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?
Your opening line you need to apply to yourself, comrade. The remainder of the post can be charitably attributed to a tendency to believe only what you want to believe. A more accurate description would be deleted.
shareAnyway...here is a link to that site that hang out at:
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=25039
Better they used a plane that might have looked like a MIG than build a bad wooden model attached to wires and try to make do. Now that wood (intentional misspelling ) have looked goofy.
shareRECOMMENDED READING:
1) SOVIET MiG-15 ACES OF THE KOREAN WAR
by: Leonid Krylov and Yruiy Tepsurkaev
Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #82
Osprey Publishing Limited, 2008
2) KOREAN WAR ACES
Robert Dorr, Jon Lake, Warren Thompson
Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #4
3) F-86 Sabre Aces of the 51st Fighter Wing
Warren Thompson
Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #70
4) F-86 Sabre Aces of the 4th Fighter Wing
Warren Thompson
Osprey Aircraft of the Aces #72
5) B-29 Superfortress Units of the Korean War
Robert Dorr
Osprey Combat Aircraft #42
...........Actually the Air Force did get a hold of a MiG 15 in 1951, courtesy of a defecting North Korean pilot, but they kept it secret out of concern the Soviets would demand its return. Odd since it was supposedly a North Korean Air Force plane. After every part was studied and the plane was flown by a number of test pilots, including Chuck Yeager, The State Department offered to return it. After the Soviets refused the MiG was put on display at the Air Force Museum. It was not made available for this movie however..........The F-84 was the closest thing to a MiG 15 available, because of its swept wings. One obvious difference is the "coke bottle" fuselage. Then there is the scene where "Cassey Jones" or "Seven Eleven", the North Korean ace, reached up a pulled down the canopy, something peculiar to the F-84, instead of sliding it forward.
TAG LINE: True genius is a beautiful thing, but ignorance is ugly to the bone.
Actually, the defection of the North Korean MiG-15 pilot took place in the Fall of 1953, a couple of months after the ceasefire. The pilot, Lieutenant No Kum Suk (who was raised Catholic and was separated from his family when Korea was divided) joined the North Korean Air Force specifically with the intent of defecting to the South at the first opportunity. He was based in Manchuria during the fighting, and the MiGs didn't have the range to reach South Korea until the NKAF returned to their home soil after the ceasefire.
share
.........The defection did happen in September 1953. I must have been thinking of the year Millitary intelegence first offered a hundred thousand US dollars to any pilot who deffected with a MiG 15.
TAG LINE: True genius is a beautiful thing, but ignorance is ugly to the bone.