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Strange Similarities to Hitchcock's N x NW.....Spoilers ahead !

posted 13 years ago by viaggio1
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My wife and I were quite taken by this tight little noir. Great fun, fine acting, taut suspense --- and a number of similarities to Hitchcock's "North by Northwest" (which came out 2 years later)! Perhaps Ernest Lehman or Sir Alfred pilfered bits of the plot ?

For instance --- both films have protagonists who are "kidnapped" by hoods, and it appears that that there are cases of mistaken identity or misunderstood information in both situations. Both protagonists fight off the hoods and escape in a car. Both protagonists appear to have been set up by a beautiful femme fatale (Eva Marie Saint / Anne Bancroft), and both protagonists then return to the femme fatale to demand an explanation.

There are many other similarities, but those are just to start off a discussion....

Does anyone know --- did Lehman or Hitchcock purposely pilfer ? Or were they just working off of the same source material ?

Thanks in advance !

"A bride without a head !"
"A wolf without a foot !"

[–] viaggio1 13 years ago

OK ---

Just finished David Goodis' book "Nightfall" (1947), which was the basis for this movie. The book is fairly short, and was an enjoyable read.

All of the movie plot points I've discussed so far were in the book originally:

1.) Hero who is "kidnapped" by hoods, and it appears that that there are cases of mistaken identity or misunderstood information.

2.) Hero fights off the hoods and escapes in a car.

3.) Hero appears to have been set up by a beautiful femme fatale.

4.) Hero then returns to the femme fatale to demand an explanation.

There is one more major plot point that I haven't mentioned yet (similar to the storyline in "North by Northwest"), and it too was in the book.

However, there are a number of other plot points (both major and minor) that were in BOTH "North By Northwest" and "Nightfall" that are NOT in book !

[I won't reveal them yet, because I want everyone else to enjoy looking for them and catching them !]

Since there are a number of plot similarities between NxNW and "Nightfall" that were not in the original book, there are 3 possibilities :

1.) Someone was involved in writing both scripts

2.) Lehman and / or Hitchcock --- one or both were intimately familiar with the movie "Nightfall" and used it as a springboard on which to create "North By Northwest."

3.) There might be some other book or movie that both the creators of "North By Northwest" and "Nightfall" used as a source for their movies.

At any rate, I recommend that you all catch "North By Northwest" again, and check out the many plot similarities to "Nightfall."

Enjoy !

"A bride without a head !"
"A wolf without a foot !"

[–] hisgrandmogulhighness 13 years ago

Viaggio---

Yes, okay, I'll try and get Nightfall, see what more there is . . .

[–] viaggio1 13 years ago

OK ---

I finally got my copy of "D'entre les morts" --- the source for "Vertigo" --- from Amazon. (Such a great deal ! $.16 for the book, $4.50 for P&H !!!). It amazes me that, like with the book & movie "Nightfall," Hitch uses a lot of the original source material --- the only difference between Vertigo & NxNW in this regard is that he openly acknowledged the sources in "Vertigo" --- but no record of his ever acknowledging "Nightfall" as a source for NxNW.

I wonder what the international copyright laws were like back in the 1950s --- perhaps, since "D'Entre" was of French origin, Hitch didn't have to pay any royalties, so he freely acknowledged the source. He would DEFINITELY have had to cough up royalties for "Nightfall," since it was of American origin. Perhaps this was why he never acknowledged this source for NxNW. The other mystery is why Goodis, author of the book "Nightfall," and Tourneur, director of the movie "Nightfall," never complained !!

....or, maybe there are standards for determining HOW MUCH of a work is borrowed before accusations of plagiarism, or expectations of royalties, start to kick in.

"A bride without a head !"
"A wolf without a foot !"

[–] 13 years ago

[deleted]

[–] hisgrandmogulhighness 12 years ago

They are similar; the basic points are the same . . . they simply moved the furniture around . . . with the same result . . . have to analyze better . . .

[–] viaggio1 12 years ago

hgmh --- Thanks for keeping up the good fight ! I simply thought that no one would ever again venture into this little valley I like to call "Nightfall vs. NxNW," so I haven't been keeping tabs --- I need to be more vigilant !

"A bride without a head !"
"A wolf without a foot !"

[–] viaggio1 12 years ago

Wow ! How amazing is that ? Someone CRITICIZING my comparison of NxNW w/ Nightfall WHO HAS ACTUALLY WATCHED NIGHTFALL !!

dee2364 --- Indeed, these are 2 fine, stand-alone movies (obviously NxNW is superior). But after watching Nightfall, and reading Goodis' book on which it was based, I simply found that there were too many plot similarities between NxNW and Nightfall to ignore. The sheer number of them makes me believe that Ernie Lehman and Sir Alfred used Nightfall as a skeleton, onto which they crafted their masterpiece, NxNW !

Below, please find the many similarities between the 2 movies, which I've posted previously on IMDb in a review of Nightfall ---

These include similarities found by fellow IMDb poster hisgrandmogulhighness, who has also read Goodis' book, Nightfall.

For the record, "femme fatale" merely means "deadly woman" --- in other words, a woman who lures men TO THEIR DOOM (in the case of Nightfall, Anne Bancroft luring Aldo Ray into the hands of Brian Keith and his henchman).

Also, it wasn't the CIA who used Roger Thornhill in NxNW --- remember the chief's dialogue --- "FBI, CIA, we're all in the same alphabet soup...."

Read and enjoy the similarities !

1.) Both films have protagonists who are "kidnapped" by hoods, and it appears that there are cases of mistaken identity or misunderstood information in both situations.

2.) Both protagonists fight off the hoods and escape in a car.

3.) Both protagonists appear to have been set up at some point by a beautiful femme fatale.

4.) Both protagonists return to the femme fatale to demand an explanation.

All right, perhaps one could argue that these 4 similarities are merely coincidental, or "standard thriller fodder." But wait -- there's more ! Both films also feature:

5.) An older, paternal "watchdog" or "shadow" who is aware of the problems of the hero, watches from afar, and yet eventually becomes involved in the chase process.

6.) A shaving scene in a public washroom --- played for tension and then comic effect in NxNW, but as an opportunity for the older "shadow" to chat with the hero in Nightfall.

7.) A scene in which the hero buys a ticket (bus in Nightfall, train in NxNW) in order to get to the bottom of the mystery.

In both scenes, the whereabouts or destination of the hero is revealed to the pertinent authorities who are present at the stations. Also in both scenes --- we see the hero mostly head-on, to the left of the scene, while we see the ticket clerk mostly from the back, to the right part of the scene.

8.) Romance and smooching between the hero and the femme fatale during a cross-country trip --- by train in NxNW, and by bus in Nightfall.

9.) Chicago plays a major role in both movies.

....and perhaps most revealing of all......

10.) A very public scene in which both the hero and the purported femme fatale are placed in danger with the bad guys. Tension and comedy both are played out in each scene. There is even a "voice-over" in each scene --- the voice of the auctioneer in NxNW, and the voice of the fashion show emcee in Nightfall.

IMDb poster hisgrandmogulhighness has uncovered these other similarities, some present in the original book Nightfall, by David Goodis, and some present in the movie Nightfall as well ---

11.) Hero in Nightfall is named Vanning; villain in NxNW is named VanDamm.

12.) Both men, Vanning and Thornhill, through widely different circumstances, are wanted for murder . . . both, indirectly, cause the death of the victims . . . both, for whatever reason, leave the murder weapon at the scene of the crime, and, most conveniently for law enforcement, leave their fingerprints all over the murder weapon . . .

13.) (In the book Nightfall and in the movie NxNW): Both men, Vanning & Thornhill, have a liquid forced down their respective throats in the houses the thugs have taken them.

14.) (In the book Nightfall and in the movie NxNW): Both Vanning and Thornhill are in hotel rooms they're not registered for . . .While leaving the hotels, both are followed out by thugs, or a thug . . .Both are in taxicabs looking at the back of the head of the taxi driver . .

15.) In the book "Nightfall," James Vanning is already using an alias, "Rayburn." In NxNW Thornhill takes on the trappings of the non-existent "Kaplan."

16.) . . . trout shows up in both works . . .

"A bride without a head !"
"A wolf without a foot !"

[–] just1Hitch 12 years ago

Congratulations...I think you've made quite a good case.

I don't think I want to go to the pictures. Oh?Why not? I've seen everything worth seeing.

[–] hisgrandmogulhighness 12 years ago

Just1Hitch:

Thanks . . . every little bit helps in trying to understand how some films, or story lines, are made, or developed . . .

[–] viaggio1 12 years ago

Thanks very much, just1Hitch --- initially, I just listed a few similarities, here and over at the NxNW site, so that NxNW fans would have the fun of watching Nightfall and catching the rest of the parallels between the 2 movies. Instead, I got lambasted time and again by people who had never seen Nightfall, or else had seen it long ago. So I just gave in and listed all of the similarities that I and hisgrandmogulhighness found between the 2 movies. Hopefully, others will be intrigued enough to watch Nightfall and enjoy the numerous similarities ! Thanks very much again.

"A bride without a head !"
"A wolf without a foot !"

[–] jackboot 11 years ago

16.) . . . trout shows up in both works . . .

"A little 'trouty,' but quite good."

[–] hisgrandmogulhighness 11 years ago

My own belief is that David Goodis has something to do with both works . . .

[–] viaggio1 10 years ago

Hey hgmh --- hope you had a great New Year's !

Goodis DID write a script for "Alfred Hitchcock Hour," and since we know that Hitch was an inveterate reader of the pulps, Hitch HAD to have been aware of his novels.

But without checking into their diaries (Hitch / Lehman / Goodis), or checking in with their remaining family members, we may never know the "official" trail from "Nightfall" to NxNW !

J'ai l'oeil AMÃ‰RICAIN !

[–] hisgrandmogulhighness 10 years ago

Perhaps one day things'll clear up . . . I wish a DVD was available, read the book, but have not seen the film . . . I'm stymied . . . though I agree there is something strange about the evolution of Hitchcock's NxNW . . .

[–] viaggio1 10 years ago

hgmh ---

Amazon has copies of "Columbia Pictures Film Noir Classics II" (which includes "Nightfall," along w/Human Desire / The Brothers Rico / City of Fear / Pushover) available for around $17.00 used, and $20.00 new !

http://www.amazon.com/Columbia-Pictures-Classics-Brothers-Nightfall/dp /B0024FAG8A/ref=sr_1_7?s=movies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1389459084& sr=1-7&keywords=Nightfall

Also, they have used copies of the VHS "Nightall" starting at $13.00 ---

http://www.amazon.com/Nightfall-Aldo-Ray/dp/B000Q822MA/ref=sr_1_31?s=m ovies-tv&ie=UTF8&qid=1389459421&sr=1-31&keywords=Night fall

Enjoy !

J'ai l'oeil AMÃ‰RICAIN !

[–] pontevedro 9 years ago

It's very simple. There is no such trail. The plots are quite different. NBNW is a movie that is based on a case of mistaken identity. Roger Thornhill gets enmeshed in the plot because the villains mistake him for a federal agent. No one in Nightfall is confused about Jim Vanning's identity.

Your suggestion that Hitchcock knowingly took ideas from Goodis and chose not to give him credit to avoid royalties is laughable. Review the writing credits on Hitchcock's movies. Most of them are based on a novel, a short story or a play - and credit is always given. According to Hitchcock, he had only three ideas to start Lehman off on the screenplay for NBNW - mistaken identity, the United Nations, and Mt. Rushmore.

Just to head off the criticism that you say you leveled at others, I watched Nightfall yesterday on DVD and NBNW two weeks ago on TCM On Demand, so the plots of both are fresh in my mind. (It was my first viewing of Nightfall, probably my tenth viewing of NBNW.)

You appear to be suffering from confirmation bias, where you only note things that confirm your hypothesis and ignore everything that contradicts it.

[–] viaggio1 9 years ago

You're right, GEB --- nearly 20 major plot points in common must surely confirm that their similarities are merely coincidental !

J'ai l'œil AMÉRICAIN !

[–] pontevedro 9 years ago

The fact that people eat trout is a major plot point? Really? If either person had eaten catfish or steak the plot would have turned out differently?

Or that the villain in NBNW is named VanDamm and the hero's alias in Nightfall is Vanning?

That's what I mean by confirmation bias - you're stretching to find similarities. You don't appear to notice the very major dissimilarities.

[–] viaggio1 9 years ago

GEB ---

In response to your concerns ---

No one in Nightfall is confused about Jim Vanning's identity.

You might want to read the original book "Nightfall," by David Goodis.

In the movie, Vanning has indeed changed his identity, in order to elude both the thugs and the police. Perhaps you may recall that in the first 1/2 hour of Nightfall, Vanning is lured by Anne Bancroft's character into the clutches of the 2 thugs, who appear to believe that he is someone else --- something which Vanning vehemently denies. It's not until later that it's revealed to the audience what's actually going on.

According to Hitchcock, he had only three ideas to start Lehman off on the screenplay for NBNW - mistaken identity, the United Nations, and Mt. Rushmore.

Very true --- I too have heard what Hitchcock has said about NxNW. But no one had bothered to ask Ernie Lehman where he got his story ideas --- unconsciously or consciously.

Just to head off the criticism that you say you leveled at others, I watched Nightfall yesterday on DVD and NBNW two weeks ago on TCM On Demand, so the plots of both are fresh in my mind. (It was my first viewing of Nightfall, probably my tenth viewing of NBNW.)

That's great ! --- I've watched NxNW about 40 times, "Nightfall" only 3 times. I have also read the book "Nightfall" by David Goodis.

The fact that people eat trout is a major plot point? Really? If either person had eaten catfish or steak the plot would have turned out differently?

Or that the villain in NBNW is named VanDamm and the hero's alias in Nightfall is Vanning?

GEB --- I believe that you must have a good memory for, and a good appreciation of, numerous classic films, just as I do. Can you recall any other movie where a man being chased by authorities ends up shaving in a public washroom, while the authorities search the washroom ? How about a very public event being disrupted by the hero; both threats and humor ensue; the femme fatale is at the event, and is also endangered; and there is a voiceover ? How about a movie that has the following scenario, as hisgrandmogulhighness has pointed out: "Both men, Vanning and Thornhill, through widely different circumstances, are wanted for murder . . . both, indirectly, cause the death of the victims . . . both, for whatever reason, leave the murder weapon at the scene of the crime, and, most conveniently for law enforcement, leave their fingerprints all over the murder weapon" ?

Yet all of these unusual scenarios occur in both movies !

..and it's not just that these 2 movies share these identical scenes, and many more --- it's also the wealth of details that are similar --- the fact that in both movies, the camera setup of the "ticket purchase scene" is virtually identical --- that there is both humor & tension in the "public disruption scenes" (fashion show & auction) --- the fact that the older, paternal watchdogs not only "watch from afar," but that they both make contact with the hero, and intervene in the chase.

You appear to be suffering from confirmation bias, where you only note things that confirm your hypothesis and ignore everything that contradicts it.

On the contrary --- I noticed and began collecting the similarities between the 2 movies during my first viewing of "Nightfall." Once I had accumulated a number of similarities, later aided by hisgrandmogulhighness, I came to the conclusion that there were too many darn similarities for it to be pure coincidence.

You might have missed my statement back on March 29, 2012 --- "The sheer number of [similarities] makes me believe that Ernie Lehman and Sir Alfred used Nightfall as a skeleton, onto which they crafted their masterpiece, NxNW !"

You don't appear to notice the very major dissimilarities.

I never said that the 2 movies were exactly the same --- I was merely suspicious about the numerous plot coincidences, and similarities between the 2 movies --- leading me to believe that the story of "Nightfall" somehow influenced the creation of NxNW, consciously or not.

J'ai l'œil AMÉRICAIN !

[–] hisgrandmogulhighness 9 years ago

Yes, Nightfall is a sort of B-movie early version of the upcoming North by Northwest . . .

[–] viaggio1 9 years ago

Hey hgmh --- a B-movie early version --- that's certainly a good way of describing the situation ! It is curious --- as GEB has stated, Hitch almost always cited / credited his material in the opening credits to his movies. I might add, even when he discarded most of the original plot. But there is absolutely no credit citation for the story anywhere in the opening credits of NxNW. That would make sense if it were purely an original story, but I think we both acknowledge that there's way too much overlap between the 2 movies for NxNW to have been a purely original story !

J'ai l'œil AMÉRICAIN !

[–] hisgrandmogulhighness 9 years ago

Metro's story department . . . I wonder what their contribution was to all this . . . the studios used material over and over again, and with many variations . . .

[–] viaggio1 9 years ago

hgmh --- You're right, studios would recycle plots over & over again that were their own property --- but would a studio stoop so low back then as to actually poach material from another studio ?

J'ai l'œil AMÉRICAIN !

[–] pontevedro 9 years ago

The contribution of Metro's story department was zero. Lehman wrote the script on his own. He described the process in an interview as "making it up as I went along." He ran the script past Hitch as he was writing it. Metro bought in on it based on a meeting with Hitch and 65 pages of screenplay. The movie was shot as Lehman wrote it. MGM executives wanted one change after viewing the completed film and Hitchcock declined to make it.

If you are really curious about the writing of NBNW, I suggest you watch the DVD version of the movie which comes with commentary by Lehman. Alternatively, you could check out the screenplay which was published by Viking a few years ago and contains an Introduction by Lehman describing how he and Hitch collaborated on the screenplay.

[–] pontevedro 9 years ago

In the movie, Vanning has indeed changed his identity, in order to elude both the thugs and the police. Perhaps you may recall that in the first 1/2 hour of Nightfall, Vanning is lured by Anne Bancroft's character into the clutches of the 2 thugs, who appear to believe that he is someone else --- something which Vanning vehemently denies. It's not until later that it's revealed to the audience what's actually going on.

Yes, of course Vanning changed his identity. But he didn't fool anybody of importance to the film. Both the crooks and the insurance investigator know that he is really Rayburn. The change of identities is relatively unimportant in Nightfall.

But in NBNW, Vandamm and his cronies mistake Roger Thornhill for George Kaplan. They never figure out throughout the whole movie that there is no George Kaplan and that Thornhill is indeed Thornhill and no one else. Thornhill is also confused - he knows who he is, but he doesn't know that Kaplan is an imaginary person. Both he and the Vandamm group are chasing George Kaplan. The whole plot turns on the mistaken identity.

The basic plots in the movies are entirely different. You have pointed out some very minor similarities in things that happen, but they're not as similar as you seem to think. For instance, the shaving scenes. Thornhill is indeed trying to avoid the authorities by having his face covered with shaving cream. Vanning, however, is just shaving. He is not trying to avoid anyone by being in the washroom. He just needs a shave.

[–] hisgrandmogulhighness 9 years ago

It's as musical chairs . . . move the scenes around, and come to a similar result . . . North by Northwest is simply To Catch a Thief in disguise . . . and, no, Thornhill is George Kaplan . . . as for that Viking screenplay--what movie were they watching? Who really wrote the finished screenplay (quite different from the Viking rendition)?

[ik]Nightfall[/I] could be viewed as an early first draft for the bigger, more expensive NxNW . . .

[–] viaggio1 9 years ago

Thanks GEB ---

I will certainly keep your insights in mind.

J'ai l'œil AMÉRICAIN !

[–] Strausszek 10 years ago

Too bad the oneliner thread on the NBNW board finally got dropped off the age cliff. I remember that line getting used a few times.. ;)

You are a lunatic, Sir, and you're going to end up on the Russian front. I have a car waiting.

[–] jackboot 10 years ago

Well, it IS a great line!! It might be my favorite!

[–] Satantangoandcash 7 years ago

You make some interesting comparisons. But some of them are not accurate when applied to the movie Nightfall (which I have just watched for the first time.)

#1 is wrong - "Hero who is "kidnapped" by hoods, and it appears that that there are cases of mistaken identity or misunderstood information."

There are no cases of mistaken identity or misunderstood information in Nightfall. He knows exactly what happened and why the hoods are after him. He changed his name to avoid the police but the hoods know exactly who he is and they understand completely that he knows where the money is. His lies don't add up to misunderstood information.

#3 is wrong - "Hero appears to have been set up by a beautiful femme fatale. "

Anne Bancroft did not intentionally lure Aldo Ray into the hands of the thugs. He was not set up by her at all. Her presence was a coincidence. They would have abducted him without her involvement.

#9 is wrong - "Chicago plays a major role in both movies."

Chicago is barely mentioned in Nightfall, which takes place in Los Angeles and Wyoming.

Regarding #2 - "Both protagonists fight off the hoods and escape in a car."

This is so commonplace in crime movies that it is not worth mentioning as a similarity.

[–] viaggio1 7 years ago

There are no cases of mistaken identity or misunderstood information in Nightfall. He knows exactly what happened and why the hoods are after him. He changed his name to avoid the police but the hoods know exactly who he is and they understand completely that he knows where the money is. His lies don't add up to misunderstood information.

The audience, upon first watching the movie, is initially unaware of much of this information. Furthermore, Vanning himself doesn't quite remember exactly where the money is, so there is no way the thugs could "understand completely that he knows where the money is."

Anne Bancroft did not intentionally lure Aldo Ray into the hands of the thugs. He was not set up by her at all. Her presence was a coincidence. They would have abducted him without her involvement.

Watch the movie again --- Anne Bancroft does set him up --- she refuses to chat with him once the thugs pick him up. Brian Keith even says something like, "We'll take over now." In addition, Bancroft acknowledges as much in her apartment, that she believed that the thugs were policemen, and that she was helping them. In essence, they used her as a "honeytrap" in order to get Vanning.

Chicago is barely mentioned in Nightfall, which takes place in Los Angeles and Wyoming.

Will have to watch it again to see.

Regarding #2 - "Both protagonists fight off the hoods and escape in a car."

This is so commonplace in crime movies that it is not worth mentioning as a similarity.

You may have missed the caveat, after #4, and prelude to #5 --- namely, "All right, perhaps one could argue that these 4 similarities are merely coincidental, or 'standard thriller fodder.' But wait -- there's more ! Both films also feature..."

J'ai l'œil AMÉRICAIN !

[–] Satantangoandcash 7 years ago

The audience, upon first watching the movie, is initially unaware of much of this information. Furthermore, Vanning himself doesn't quite remember exactly where the money is, so there is no way the thugs could "understand completely that he knows where the money is."

Vanning was using an alias, but he was not mistaken for being someone he was not, as happens in North By Northwest, which was your comparison. I don't think that audience ignorance constitutes mistaken identity. Many movies begin with an uncertainty as to who is who and who did what. Without that there would be no mystery.

Vanning knows roughly where he dropped the money, as we find out in the end when he goes directly to the spot. What bothers me is that it is unlikely he would drop the case and this seems like nothing more than an unrealistic plot device.

Watch the movie again --- Anne Bancroft does set him up --- she refuses to chat with him once the thugs pick him up. Brian Keith even says something like, "We'll take over now." In addition, Bancroft acknowledges as much in her apartment, that she believed that the thugs were policemen, and that she was helping them. In essence, they used her as a "honeytrap" in order to get Vanning.

For Bancroft to have intentionally set him up she had to communicate with the thugs beforehand. I saw nothing that indicates that she did, other than Keith telling her he'll take over, and I don't remember that she told Vanning she was helping the police, I'd need to watch that scene again, but I don't see anything that disproves that she was helping them either, so you could be right.