The Town Drunk


It is never explained who actually killed the town drunk, nor why the Indian shopkeeper denied seeing the fight. OR why the drunk tried to knife him in the first place. Does anyone know the answers to any of those questions?

reply

I've never figured it out but I think the Indian shopkeeper paid the town drunk to knife Lockhart and because he didn't the Indian shopkeeper killed him or something.

reply

God enough guess. It's a minor weakness of an otherwise great western that such a question should arise, but I suspect that the Indian (who is very upset when Stewart handles the rifle and asks questions) is a liaison for the gun-buying Apaches, and is out to kill the nosy parker Jimmy. It might have been clarified.

reply

[deleted]

Nice point about Will's plan to return to Laramie with the salt without investigating the gunrunning when supposedly that's why he was there.
Wasn't that John War Eagle leading the Indians at the end? I think maybe he was working at the store to keep an eye on the town while he waited to get his braves enough rifles to start a war.
I thought Vic killed Alec by accident.
Why would two guys who were going to inherit the biggest ranch in the territory sell guns to the Indians? I must have missed it.
I also want to say that Donald Crisp rode a horse pretty well for a 74 year old!.

reply

I just watched LARAMIE on Sunday, and right before Vic shoots Dave, Dave yells something about hoping the Apaches will attack the Half Moon (Aline MacMahon's ranch)and destroy it. Of course, just cause the Indians would attack the Half Moon doesn't mean they wouldn't come after the "Barb" and the town, too. So anyway you look at it Dave and Vic seem to be setting up their own destruction. It's a definite plot hole that may be because of edited scenes.
Also, Dave and Barbara are supposed to be cousins, but they never have any scenes together. I assume this is because of her alienation from Alec because of how he treated her father. She DOES appear at Dave's funeral, but I just found it odd that thye have no interaction.

reply

From the moment he gets the $600 and warned that Dave will try to even the score, Jimmy says he plans to stay. The Sheriff then tells him to leave, but he says he will stay.

He is definitely planning to stay, though there are a thousand other plot holes.

reply

I'm glad to see others pinpointing all the holes in this utterly incoherent movie, because I wouldn't have known where to begin. Were they making the plot up as they went along?
Apart from the total mess of a plot, there were some worthy characters and acting, and wonderful camera work and staging (although I find it a cop-out when cinematography is the best thing about a film).
Why must complete incoherence be a prerequisite for "classic" westerns?

reply

Utterly incoherent? Hardly. To answer your question with another question: why are modern audiences so preoccupied with finding as many plot holes as possible? You know, like how did the Ghost of Hamlet's father know Claudius killed him?! Geez, if you're only interested in the logic of plots, maybe the arts aren't for you.

reply

Not incoherant at all. People don't always act rationally and in a power struggle people will try and get something for themselves. Like Fredo Corleone saying that "they said there would be something in it for me."

I agree that i'm not sure how selling 30-40 rifles a month to the apaches would be worth the risk involved.

Many don't like the Dave character they think he is too over the top but there are people like that in this world. Idiots! How the Arthur Kennedy character Vic would buy into that behaivior is a bit strange especially when he said he loved Alec like a real father. So why steal from him?

reply

To answer the question about the Indian storekeeper person....did you all not see that he was the painted-faced leader of the Apache band that came for the rifles and then killed Vic near the end of the film. So, he was essentially a spy in the town but really working for the Apaches, so to speak, and one must assume he wanted Stewart character out of the way and paid the town drunk to kill him but then lied to cover his own killing of the Jack Elam character.

And as far as Dave being over the top...I think he played a somewhat psychotic man pretty well who had been spoiled by his mother all his childhood years (the spoiled part was pointed out by the Aline McMahon character as she sat by Alec's sickbed later in the movie.)

reply

"To answer the question about the Indian storekeeper person....did you all not see that he was the painted-faced leader of the Apache band that came for the rifles and then killed Vic near the end of the film. So, he was essentially a spy in the town but really working for the Apaches, so to speak, and one must assume he wanted Stewart character out of the way and paid the town drunk to kill him but then lied to cover his own killing of the Jack Elam character."

I'll go along with that. I'd always thought it was Vic, as when Chris is intercepted by Lockhart when following him, he admitted that someone had paid him to shadow him. But it probably makes more sense the store keeper knifing him, as Hansbro wasn't really seen with a knife. And no! I'll fess up to not
"seeing that he was the painted-faced leader of the Apache band that came for the rifles and then killed Vic near the end of the film."

I'd like to know why the Apaches only dealt with Hansbro for destroying the rifles. Wouldn't they do the same to Lochhart?

reply


I'd like to know why the Apaches only dealt with Hansbro for destroying the rifles. Wouldn't they do the same to Lochhart?


The answer is that the Apaches didn't know that Lockhart was up there with Hansbro. Lockhart let Hansbro go knowing that Hansbro would come across the Apaches on his way down the mountain. He most likely waited up there until the Apaches had killed Hansbro before he made his way back to the ranch.

"Don't tell me your little problems son, all I'm interested in is results."

reply

It's been awhile since I saw Man from Laramie, but I never got the impression that Will had concrete information telling him that the gun-sellers are in this area. I viewed it as though it was his objective to look for these men wherever he might happen to be. Thus, the film captures the period of time when he fortuitously finds those gun-sellers. As for all the Vic/Dave villiany, I'd have to see the film again to speak to that. I guess I don't see what's so hard to understand about a film that documents a western loner following through on his moral vendetta to avenge his brother's death. Perhaps I'm just not looking hard enough for plot holes?

reply

This thread has gone cold but maybe I'll start it again as I recently saw the film.

Vic and Dave were in the gun running plot together only Vic had a more moderate approach to selling the guns than Dave.
Vic organises Will's murder by Chris.
The Indian is obviously implicatee that is why he is very sullen when Will handles the rifle in the store.

Vic is an extremely tortured soul and the story is about him as much as it is about Will. The fact that Vic isn't all bad unlike Dave, make it complex and takes away the black and white senario of most westerns. It's a new angle especially for a western of those days.

Funny how the ramrod is often the best next thing to a son of the rancher in westerns, Red River, The Big Country.

reply

The problem is that later in the film after Alec is blinded, Will says that the same person Killed Chris, Dave, and attempted to kill Alec.

That's just his character assuming things. He's not God you know, even if he is played by James Stewart.

It seems like the original plot makes Dave the bad guy, but after Dave is killed there is no bad guy for the climax, so the plot was changed to make Vic the bad guy instead.

Except the film-makers aren't interested in a good villain or a plot. The film is about society, violence, law and family, heroes or villains are there just for toppings, it's not the real interest of the film-makers.

I liked the film anyway, which makes as much sense as the plot.

Well I always love films which value characters with unpredictable emotions over plots which display a tendency to challenge the traditional way of telling stories.




"Ça va by me, madame...Ça va by me!" - The Red Shoes

reply

It might have been clarified.

Maybe. But it's more interesting that the film-makers elided it. Allows the audience to think.

According to modern aesthetics, it's perfectly fine for a film-maker not to explain each and every single detail and object in his film(s) and Mann and his writer Philip Yordan having come to the film industry with forty years of film history behind them are smart enough to play and subvert rules.

This kind of thing is quite common in Mann's films. Like in The Fall of the Roman Empire, the fact that Marcus Aurelius' death was an assassination never arises and none of the characters realize the truth. It's a secret between us and the assassins.



"Ça va by me, madame...Ça va by me!" - The Red Shoes

reply

It's been a while since I watched this movie, but didn't the Town Drunk tell Stewart that he had some important information for him? Then suddenly he tries to kill him, then suddenly he is killed himself (by someone else).

I agree with many comments here that this a vastly over-rated Western. Maybe part of its charm lies in its awfulness, but I just wasn't in an ironic mood when I watched it. Bend of the River is a far superior Mann/Stewart collaboration (although again Arthur Kennedy goes from being an ally to an enemy rather suddenly).

Would also like to add that the actor who played Dave was pretty hopeless. He exaggerated all his lines and was never that convincing.

Live slow, die old.

reply

They botched the entire Jack Elam (town drunk) character. I suppose they had a reason to have him in the story in the first place, but they forgot to film or edited out that reason.

The motivation for Lockhart (Stewart) is a stretch. Supposedly he knows there is one man out there who sold Apaches repeating rifles and he's going to hunt down that man down and off him because he figures the man is responsible for the Apaches killing his younger brother?

reply

[deleted]

Vic being the killer of the town drunk didn't make any sense to me either. His role in the whole thing wasn't explained very well.

I didn't even see Vic as trying to kill Alec as trying to stop him from discovering what he and Dave were doing, and he did have reason to stop him from finding out; Alec had made Vic responsible for keeping an eye on Dave. Dave selling guns to the Apaches would mean that either Vic wasn't keeping an eye on Dave or that he was in on the scheme with him, either option probably leading to Alec being disappointed in Vic and not giving him control of the ranch.

The Man from Laramie, though, still ranks as my second favorite of the Mann/Stewart westerns, with the episodic Bend of the River being my least favorite of the five.

reply

OR why the drunk tried to knife him in the first place.

Because the "town drunk" was paid by someone to kill Jimmy Stewart's character Lockhart. When Lockhart got the jump on him he tried to get out by telling him that he has information. Just because his character says that doesn't mean we need to believe a word of what he says.

Does anyone know the answers to any of those questions?

Well maybe the film-makers left it for the audience to figure out for themselves, perhaps making the film more interesting on a second viewing(and this film is complex enough for that).




"Ça va by me, madame...Ça va by me!" - The Red Shoes

reply

[deleted]

In addition to the many plot holes that have already been pointed out in this thread, after seeing the film last night, there was another one that bothered me, which was the relationship between Barbara Waggoman and Vic. Initially we're led to believe that a romance may develop between Barbara and Lockhart - he openly admires her, although she is somewhat reserved towards him. We have no idea that she and Vic are romantically involved until well into the film, at which point we are given to understand that they have been together for some time, are very much in love, and have plans to get married in the future.

As the film draws to a close, this plot point seems to completely disappear. There's never any indication that Barbara is upset or distraught by Vic's disgrace and, ultimately, his death. In the final scene, she says goodbye to Lockhart without any acknowledgement of losing her fiancé, the man she supposedly loved and was going to spend the rest of her life with. I don't mind the fact that the protagonist doesn't get the girl in the end - it fits with what I've been reading about Mann's propensity to go against formula, as well as glorifying the strong loner character-type. But the fact that this woman doesn't seem to care about her fiancé's death is far from believable and makes me wonder if they cut something out. I came away thinking that she was cold-hearted and extremely unsympathetic. To the filmmakers' credit, the older female character in the film more than made up for Barbara's lack of feeling with her own warmth and humor.

reply


SPOILERS AHEAD


It took me a few viewings, but after rewatching the film last night, I no longer believe the film has plot holes. Alot of the confusion is that alot of information given to the viewer is very subtle and almost impossible to catch and decipher upon a first view. There is also a great amount of assumption to be made.


For the Chris Boldt/John War Eagle/Vic Hansbro connection, from what I understand Chris had a big mouth for a price. He'd be willing to sell any information to anyone for the right amount of money so he held no had no allegiance to anyone including Jimmy Stewart, which is why he does not trust him when he proposes to sell out the gunrunner. The reason for him trying to knife Stewart is because John War Eagle hired him to kill Stewart and protect the gunrunner whose supplying weapons to his people. It couldn't have been Vic who sent Chris to do the job because Chris tried to sell him out to Stewart, so hiring him would make no sense. As for Chris's death, he was either A) killed by John War Eagle because of the failed killing or by B) Vic Hansbro for trying to sell him out.


For the Gunrunners plot, It is obvious Dave and Vic are in the plot together. Because Dave refuses to conduct the beef tally claiming "I'm no good at paper work" we can assume that Dave was the muscle of the scheme (directly selling the rifles to the Apache) while Vic, who is more clear-headed and calculating, was the brains and managed to smuggle the rifles under Alec's nose. When Dave has been shot in the hand by Stewart, his sadistic revenge is not enough for the hot-head and believes that by generously giving away all the rifles at once to the Apache, he can convince them to attack the Half Moon and not the Barb. Vic knows that this isn't true, especially when the Barb takes up some of the Apache's original territory. Dave at this point isn't thinking clearly and has to be killed by Vic.


For Alec's attempted murder, Vic was not purposefully trying to hurt the old man. We understand throughout the movie that Vic thinks of him as a father even when he feels he's been treated unfairly by him. He shakes Alec violently hoping that it would anger him into not going further up to the cliff and discovering the rifles. If he does, Alec will assume that either Vic was not keeping a careful eye on Dave or that he and Dave were in it together, either way resulting in Vic losing possession of the ranch (being that Dave was dead Vic would inherit it all). Vic states that the ranch is everything to him so he tries to stop Alec from finding the rifles but he throws Alec's balance off causing him to fall from the horse and descend down the hill.




What's very interesting about this movie is that it throws away all of the conventions of the classic Hollywood western. The hero after searching for the man responsible for his brother's death, never exacts his revenge upon him, there is no clear cut morality where even the most despicable villains become tragic characters.

reply

I think you're on the right track, but Dave wasn't really generously giving all the guns to the Apaches. It's established in earlier dialogue that the guns had all already been paid for by the Apaches, which raises the question of what Vic thought was going to happen with all those rifles. Did he think they could stiff the Apaches and get away with it?

Also, I don't think Vic could have killed Chris for attempting to sell him out. How could Vic have known that Chris attempted to sell him out? The only people there at the time were Stewart and Chris. I think John War Eagle didn't like Stewart snooping around, hired Chris to kill Stewart, and then killed Chris to shut him up after the failed hit on Stewart.

I think Vic is just mostly a tragic character who comes to his downfall partly due to his own actions, more due to the actions of Dave, and through some really crappy luck. Stewart is just jumping to conclusions when he decides that Vic is the evil mastermind behind everything. This is a very morally complex movie.

"All this machine does is swim and eat and make little sharks and that's all." -- Matt Hooper, JAWS

reply

"There's never any indication that Barbara is upset or distraught by Vic's disgrace and, ultimately, his death. In the final scene, she says goodbye to Lockhart without any acknowledgement of losing her fiancé, the man she supposedly loved and was going to spend the rest of her life with."

Yes I thought that was very strange too MMM, considering that recent to those events you described, they'd even had some sort of practice wedding ceremony. In fact it does border on the bizarre! She doesn't even mention him, but leads Lockhart to think she may look him up in Laramie.

reply

Very interesting thread to 1 of my favorite movies..here is my 2 small takes..I feel Chris on his own decided to kill Lockhart based on the earlier encounter in the hills upset how he was treated and hoping to score points with Lockhart's enemies by doing so..and War Eagle chanced upon the fight coincidently..and when questioned, decided not to confirm what he had seen preferring for his reasons not to get involved..at least at that moment..

2ndly, I feel Barbara had come to the conclusion that Vic was bad news..based on the past 2 days..she could see something was up and no fool..she had tolerated a lot and was going to jump ship so to speak no matter what occurred..

The 1 plot hole I do wrestle with is Vic and Dave's plan to sell rifles to the Apache..they had collected money apparently..they had piecemealed a few of them to the party already..and how long were thet going to keep stringing them along before the got upset with them..It was mentioned they expected the rifles in a couple of days..It was an illconceived plan I feel at best..and 1 I just do not understand..

reply

Hollywood! -- even the writers of The Big Sleep didn't know who killed one victim, LOL -- they don't care, it's a paycheck anyway, the fans can suffer as Hitchcock said "Make the audience suffer as much as possible", lol..

My only regret in life is that I'm not someone else - Woody Allen

reply