Was it just me, or did it seem as though something "more" happend after the fadeout at the end of Lady and Tramp's "Belle Notte." Intially I felt a little silly thinking that anything happend, particularly in a film such as this but then I got to thinking, how else would a pregnancy occur?, and the fadeout, and their positions at the fade in. I think more than spagetti was shared that night...or am I a bit insane?
"DON'T PANIC."
In the DVD extras it says that was what they were trying to imply. Along with Jock and Trusty's proposal of "matrimony", it kind of makes sense. As a little kid I always thought that they meant that Lady could marry one of them to get away from Aunt Sarah.
shareNow the "matrimony" bit I still don't understand. What relation does that have with her relationship with tramp. What was the point of the proposal? Call me nieve (go ahead) but I never understood that part in reference to Lady and Tramp's "festivities" of the previous night. What was the point?
"DON'T PANIC."
I never really thought that anything really happened between the two up on the hill. Lady doesn't strike me as the kind who'd get a bit 'hot and heavy' with Tramp. Sure, he helped her and he's workin his romantic charm, but after all, she's an upperclass 'lady.'
I mean, nowadays, you could imply anything from that little smile Tramp gives her the next morning when he wakes up next to her and glances at her.
A-ha-ha-ha, you're really weird!-Willy Wonka
Well actually, I just watched the bonus features hour long documentary and right around minute 13, one of the interviewees confirms:
"You kinda wonder what happend there...you know...its a little risque and maybe too many people don't think about that but most likely, you know, they had a "romantic" night."
Doesn't leave much room for doubt and definitely explains the litter of puppies she has the following winter. What more, I had always wondered why exactly she was so angry with tramp the following night at the doghouse. Granted, he was a player and had a lot of ladys prior to Lady herself. But, at least I think, she was particularly offended by this as they had just had a more "intimate" evening prevously. It would make sense for her to feel a little bit used after finding out, and I think that perpetuated her anger. If you ask me, I would feel a little bit more offended if I found out my date was a player after sex as apposed to just after a little spagetti dinner. But that's just me.
Point is, and to be in the most adult manner, very frank with you, Lady and Tramp did have doggy sex sometime between that fadeout. You can't deny it but I will say, after realising that, some of the films innocence did sort of dissapate.
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ah, it all makes sense now.
"DON'T PANIC."
leading on from this i also think peggys 'hes a tramp' song can be seen as a bit risque as she is basically saying tramp is a man-whore. (well dog-whore i guess).
shareLOL I was thinking the same thing, especially due to the whole proposal of matrimony part...
Time heals all wounds, so if you're uninsured, get a watch. ~ Steven Colbert
In the DVD extras it says that was what they were trying to imply. Along with Jock and Trusty's proposal of "matrimony", it kind of makes sense. As a little kid I always thought that they meant that Lady could marry one of them to get away from Aunt Sarah.
I don't think so, Tim.share
According to the documentary on the "Platinum Edition" dvd, something very much "more" took place on that hilltop after the fadeout. Implied, as well, is the idea that Jock and Trusty courted Lady so that her pups would be "legitimate" -- in that sense, they were defending her virtue.
Surprise! ; )
Mark Dillon
Ah, I never did gather the exact reason why they where so concerned with Matrimony. And what kind of still baffles me is how exactly they found out that she had a sexual affair with tramp, and what more, how they knew she was pregnant not even 24 hours after said affair? Two perceptive or very nosy dogs I say.
"DON'T PANIC."
Never even crossed my mind! I always assumed that Tramp & Lady gotr pregnant AFTER he moved into the Darling house! Now I'M the one whose feeling naive.
I too thought Jaque and Trusty offered to marry Lady just to get her out of the Aunt Sara house.
Wow, pre-marital cartoon sex 50 years ago. Who woulda' thunk it???
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It really manifests the fact that, while wholesomely family oriented and friendly, this was a movie originally catered for a more adult audience. It is even mentioned in the Bonus DVD that this is probably one of Walt's most adult films. Think about it: Romance, Sex, Incarceration, Execution, Illegitimate Pregnancy, Evasive Matrimony, social taxonomy. I'm sure you can agree with me that none of those mentioned are particularly child related topics. But then, that's just more credit due to Disney for making such a film with such adult material enjoyable for any audience. I'll admit, they were for the most part, very clever in their methods of not blatantly revealing the whole sexual aspect of those scenes. Kudos...
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'Romance, Sex, Incarceration, Execution, Illegitimate Pregnancy, Evasive Matrimony, social taxonomy'
Yep, they just don't make em like they used to. 'sniff'
A-ha-ha-ha, you're really weird!-Willy Wonka
I never knew that before, although I'm sure I thought about it at some point. It just confirms to me that Walt Disney put a lot of realism into his films, and he did one heck of a job at it. In this case, the realism is implied, but it's realism all the same. After all, where else do animated babies come from? And don't say they're drawn... :p
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"Yep, they just don't make em like they used to. 'sniff'"
Isn't it just such a pity, sigh....I like many dillusional others hope that someday, the Savior of Disney animation will oneday make a triumphant return upon that proverbial white horse, or at least a giant paintbrush. Nah....
"DON'T PANIC."
I just had a thought: since when do the classical 'rules of marriage' apply to dogs? They don't get married, so what Lady and Tramp did was fine.
My WD/TPD fan site:http://www.freewebs.com/inle-rah
Well, when you consider the fact that these dogs were all anthropomorphic and therefore did on a certain level represent several aspects of humanity (social taxonomy, morality, etc) it is surprising that these two would not tie the offical doggie knot before sex. Sure, regular dogs don't have that responsiblity, but Lady and the Tramp are clearly not regular dogs representing traditional behavior. And what more, Jock and Trusty's behavior regarding her unexpected pregnancy and their attempts to cover for her represent the fact in in this doggie world, what Lady and Tramp did wasn't socially acceptable. Also, when you consider the time at which this film was created (1955) it is a little shocking that an animated film would contain topics of sex, particularly sex between dogs, even more so as a one night stand.
And besides, we're not really impugning the morality of their actions, so much as we're just dicussing them, at least, that's all I intended.
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Yea, because if you know about how dogs engage in breeding, Romance really doesn't have much of a place in the equation. I suppose Lady and Tramp got a bit caught up in the moment and, one thing lead to another and well....the next thing you know, there goes her virginity. I'm sure Tramp verily "rocked" Mrs. Lady's world that night....oh but look at me, getting all explicit and what not...sorry. ;)
As for the pups, yup, those are the same as those seen in the sequel, though perhaps a few months older. Scamp especially so.
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I ofically know that Team America is one film I will not soon be seeing. Methinks Lady and the Tramp sex and Team America sex are two completely different worlds. Yea, the scene your describing doesn't leave much to suggestion... :p
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then they should have had Lady die. She was a cocker spaniel, those are small breeds. and Tramp was a medium to large, maybe a terrier mix/wolfie. Lady would die from carriage. Looks like Walt made a mistake
shareI wouldn't say that she would have died for certain. Lady may have experienced some difficulties through the pregnancy and/or labour, but I have both known of and owned smaller female dogs who have survived giving birth to litters sired by larger males. You are correct, however, that in the case of smaller females there is always a risk (often significant) to both the mother and the pups.
Just for interest's sake, I've seen a female chihuahua give birth to a litter from a male huskie (Maybe four pups? Five? I don't remember exactly), and survive it. I'm nearly positive she was a chihuahau-mix and she was most certainly on the larger end of the scale for her breed, but still. Wow. It was absolutely amazing, and a little creepy to see tiny chihua-huskies. Breeding with such extreme size differences are NOT recommended at all, though, because of the danger you alluded to.
do female dogs die if they carry the puppies from a larger dog??
if so, i never knew that. thats kinda sad :(
'Romance, Sex, Incarceration, Execution, Illegitimate Pregnancy, Evasive Matrimony, social taxonomy'
Yep, they just don't make em like they used to. 'sniff'
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My feeling is that they simply slept together that first night. Tramp was in love and wanted to take care of Lady; he was no longer out for what he could get. As for Lady being upset about all the other girls in Tramp's life, that was not unreasonable, regardless; after all, she was in love and thought he felt the same. Jock and Trusty proposed because her being a jailbird and being involved with Tramp made her a fallen woman who might never find a suitable husband, and because she'd been kicked out of the house and they wanted to give her a good home. This all took place in the middle of summer. When Jim-Dear and Darling adopted Tramp, he got a license and he and Lady became legal; the puppies were born four or five months later in mid-November.
share"It's kind of weird that I'm thinking about cartoon dogs' sex lives."
Nah. Chill. Everyone is doing it anyway. :P
And for your information, very much is implied that they understand about Lady and her night on the hilltop. Particularly in the way that they mention her "unfortunate experience". They knew about the pound, the date, and most certainly, the pregnancy. It was their desire to protect her through courtship to defend her fragile image which would have been verily ruined, what with having just had sex with a street-bound cad, carrying that sort of illigitmate child will certainly not get a pleasant reaction from Lady's owners, or her fellow dogs.
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Trusty mentions "Birds and the bees".
"There's No Power Greater Than X" - XBOX
"Trusty mentions "Birds and the bees". "
However, he is using that in referemce to Lady's owners and the new arrival of the Baby. At that point, Lady didn't even meet the tramp yet and provided that you read all of the preceeding posts, we are clearly not talking about Jim dear and Darling.
"DON'T PANIC."
why can't the movie just be taken at face value? does there HAVE to be some meaning behind everything?
shareThe "face value" you speak of is quite simple. We are reading into this subject, granted. But this is hardly a mystery and is obviously true, too many signs point to yes and the fact that many miss the implications only suggests to me the mastery of Disney's story writing and the subtly of those adult elements incorperated. If you still remain a non-believer, by all means, pop in the second bonus disc and watch the hour long documentary. At around minute 14 in the second segment, pause, then come back. Then we can talk about "face value", and over-analysis.
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I always thought they were proposing because they were cradle-snatching dirty old perverts.
shareHa ha ha ha!
sharethe only thing i thought disturbing is the fact that they did the 'doggy dont' on top of the hill with a group of young lovers in carriages watching the night scenery................
o.o
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Let's face it, people. It may be difficult and irreverent to imagine Bambi mounting up on Faline, or Princess Aurora, with her legs in the air, receiving the pounding of her life from Prince Philip, or Jasmine riding Aladdin like a wild camel, but the truth is that Disney heroes and heroines from Steamboat Willy to Lilo's big sister have been happily getting it on and rocking one anothers worlds off-screen since Walt himself oversaw the first fadeout. (Well, maybe not Winnie the Pooh and his androgenous friends)
I wonder if Belle is a squealer or a moaner. Hmm...
"I wonder if Belle is a squealer or a moaner. Hmm..."
Well that depends of course. Are we speaking in reference to Belle and Beast or Belle and the Prince? Two COMPLETELY different "experiences" if you ask me.
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I didn't think jacques and Trusty were asking her to marry one of them. I thought they were just wanting her to stay with one of them cus of the baby. Also, I thought by her "unfortunate experience" they meant her getting put in the pound, which the other high-society dogs would look down upon.
*~ ErIn *~ *~ Chase your dreams cus they won't chase you! ~*
"Yea, because if you know about how dogs engage in breeding, Romance really doesn't have much of a place in the equation. I suppose Lady and Tramp got a bit caught up in the moment and, one thing lead to another and well....the next thing you know, there goes her virginity. I'm sure Tramp verily "rocked" Mrs. Lady's world that night....oh but look at me, getting all explicit and what not...sorry. ;)"
Since both the dogs are portrayed as humans, that goes to show about Lady's REAL character. If they were supposed to be 'dog-like', we wouldn't have to deal with all that courtship in the first place. Its a wonder Tramp was so nice to her, true love Their just dogs.
No hay banda! There is no band. It is all an illusion...
Meh... Romance, the walk through the park, the fancy dinner? A mere Prelude. Tramp knew what he wanted from the very beginning. All that courtship? Try approximately (judging from the passage of time from their real initial meeting in the alley), give or take 8 hours. And we can probably assume that Tramp has been around the block a few times more than Lady (literally and figuratively) so if you ask me, statutory rape. : p
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Yes, well, according to Snopes.com, the priest didn't have an erection. That was his knee they were trying to illustrate, but it appeared to be an erection. ::shrugs:: Just a thought.
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The Phantom of the Opera is here inside my mind...
...Yay!
Sigh...I really hope this topic doesn't go too far in that direction. Keep it on snopes.
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Haha. I know. I was typing my response, and I was thinking, "This is soooo off-topic." BUT, ya know... you see this comment, and you just HAVE to respond... hahaha.
=]
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The Phantom of the Opera is here inside my mind...
...Yay!
Ok I'm so naie lol...I always thought Jock and trusty wanted to 'marry' Lady to save her from Aunt Sarah, and the 'unfortunate experiance' was being in the pound and the muzzle etc. It makes a bit more sense now though lol! But the impied scene lol...I watched this recently and did think something along these lines, but the way Lady's ear is lying over tramp makes it look like they were doing 'it' in a very awkward position for dogs lol! Ok, maybe that has nothing to do with it, but still...
But what I'd like to know is why it is still rated 'U' (or G in other places...) these days if it's suggesting things like that. I mean, in the 50s kids would have been a little bit more naive then they are now (just look at some things they watch) so it's not like it'll all pass over their heads is it? Or maybe it does, I don't know lol.
I think the G rating is completely acceptable as everything adult natured in those scenes was entirely made by mere implication, and there was no actual depiction of any sexual acts on-screen. For most kids, and probably some adults, the whole sexual aspect of the film flies completely over the head.
Another interesting point to be made is that around the time of Lady and the Tramp's production, Disney's animated productions were not films created strictly for children as they are now. Animation had its foundation in adult entertainment preceding a full length film in the theaters. As such, Walt Disney films, even into the mid-fifties such as this were not catered specifically for children but rather a more general (and plausibly adult) audience. That could explain some of the surprising adult material found in this film.
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when i was little even when i saw movies and people would wake up together in bed naked i didnt think there was anything other than that. you know how some people sleep naked? i just thought that they were hugging and fell asleep. children dont think like that, they dont know about sex so they think of some other explanation. i never even thought about that. i just thought when i was a kid that after belle note they do like dogs do, which is sleep side by side, and i saw nothing wrong with that!
"surprising adult material found in this film."? thats rediculous. the only disney movie i ever thought had anything wrong with it was when i was like 5 and considered hell a bad wordand then the evil woman in sleeping beauty said "...AND ALL THE POWERS OF HELL!", then mom explained its not a bad word if you are talking about the place hell like that (not as in go to hell though). i think you all have dirty minds for interpreting every damn disney movie to have adult content in it. whats wrong with you?
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.
All I have to say is watch the DVD bonus disk right around minute 14. Everything posted on this board is confirmed by the animators responsible.
"DON'T PANIC."
Wow... I need to go watch this movie again. I haven't seen it in a few years but I am completely surprised.. I NEVER interpreted any sexual themes in this movie (then again I haven't seen the commentary disk). I feel really dumb.
shareI think the real question is this: Who are the real sickos, Disney animators or the viewers? And to the person who talked about the evil chick in Sleeping Beauty, I watched that movie a couple weeks ago and was like "WHOA! She's way too scary for a children's movie!" lol!
*~ ErIn *~ *~ http://youtube.com/watch?v=tYnn51C3X_w Betch. ~*
When Lady and Tramp wake up on the hill, and he tells her that beyond the plains is where a dog can find adventure and who knows what; Lady says, "But who would look after the baby?"
Also Trusty's 'jailbirds" comment might've been about Tramp being a jailbird and his having impregnated Lady meant that her pups might be jailbird pups.
Wow. What do we have? Lady and Tramp had sex. Duh! They had puppies! You ppl are really funny.
An animator (or some other crew member) saying that it *probably* what happened that night is still not a 100% proof for anything. Probably/most likely, you gotta think".... assumptions. Interpretations. If you think about it, then out of all of the people who are responsible for an animated film, some artist/director/writer whatever may have his own interpretation of UNSEEN happenings, that won't be necessarily shared by the others. So again, what do we have..? And why are we so over the top dealing with this logical possability? Yea - we were kids, we didn't think of it. Now we DO know how children and puppies come to the world. That's the big suprising difference. Kids shouldn't then (and wouldn't) pick up on that, like with many other movies, 'till they grow. What's the big deal here then? Are we so protective of our childhood films (and I am, actually) that such a big fuss should be done? It just seems a bit ridiculous if you put it in perspective.
Oh heartbreak and despair got nothing but boring
So I grabbed you baby like a wild pitch
...I love this movie, and I watched it again recently. I must admit I felt something "strange" though, and after looking at Wikipedia (look up the movie yourself if you wish), I knew I was somewhat right. I must admit it shocked me a bit, but be it true or simple speculations, it doesn't remove the movie's beauty. It doesn't matter if it had happened or not. The message may be there, but you can simply ignore it and still love the movie, and safely show it to kids.
...As for children not picking up certain "things" until they grow up, I completely agree. I have many anatomy's books at home, so I knew already how a human body is made (every single organ of both the male and the female) before I was ten years old. They were illustrated, too.
...I knew about eggs and sperm and all that jazz, too, but I didn't truly understood how the heck they could "meet" 'till I was about 12-13. My strictly female hormones were kicking in by then. This is a knowledge we all have inside, and we must learn it, either by ourself (like me), or by external "aid".
Okay
Before you read this....I am an extremly dumb person....
What is with the whole Jock/trusty marrying lady?
"Don't fight here you'll ruin the flowers!"
I don't think the puppies are from the spaghetti night. If the baby was born in April then Jim Dear and Darling probably went on their trip in about May or June which means that spaghetti doggie sex night was in May or June. The puppies are shown at Christmas and I would say they couldn't be more than a couple of weeks old and dogs only carry puppies for nine weeks. There's too much of a gap. So they made have had doggie sex that night, but it was a misfire
"Cross my heart and kiss my elbow."
O wow someone said the exact same thing! Sorry!
"Cross my heart and kiss my elbow."
Thinking about it, Pregancy would explain her EXTREME tearfulness and anger when tram comes to visit with a bone. HORMONES!!
shareI think that going back and watching it again its pretty obvious that they did mate that night (even if the pupies weren't conceived that night). I read somewhere, or maybe it was on the DVD, that Lady was probably in heat when the dogs in the alleyway chased her. If she were in heat Jock and Trusty would know about it too and could also have smelt Tramp on her to know that she could be with puppies.
shareYeah; that makes sense. I was wondering about the alley dogs attacking Lady too- if it was a simple "get off my turf" chase, I don't think they would have followed her that long if she hadn't been in heat. Way to go Tramp for saving her from doggie gang rape (...)
Yes, I know they're dogs and that's how puppies happen, but on the other hand: "Ow, my childhood...."
"Who are the real sickos, Disney animators or the viewers?"
Bingo. I can't believe the comments I'm seeing here. Sick how people TRY to read into every stupid thing ("a baby" is "multiple puppies", somehow; and that lame sexist "hormone" garbage, or you'd only be upset with someone "cheating" if you SCREWED them). Sex-obsessed. Pathetic. Don't we ever have anything else in life to pay attention to?
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Oh FGS. "What about the baby?" - THE BABY - THE HUMAN BABY. Geesh. She wants to watch over the HUMAN baby.
shareI'd just like to point out that it's Jock, not Jacques - he's Scottish, not French ;)
shareROTFLMAO
"Sleeping Beauty" is never gonna look the same to me. Ever.
wow yeah i never noticed that when i was younger! makes me wonder what else i missed (if i had the time to rewatch everything again)
and clever title
I'm not reading all the replies, but I have to comment:
a) Apparently, the DVD does not CONFIRM any "pre-marital sexual relations", but says "MOST LIKELY" - if that's the quote you all are going on, you have no leg to stand on. This is this interviewee's OPINION and a weak 1 at that.
b) The Darlings' BABY BOY at Xmas is pretty mature - he is probably easily 10 mos old or so, maybe more. When all the ruckus happened (never mind the "romantic interlude"), he was still very much a BABY. DOGS HAVE PUPPIES IN 2 MONTHS. I don't see how there was so little time between "Bella Notte" and Xmas.
Then why would Jock and Trusty talk about marriage to get her away form aunt sarah when Jim Dear and Darling are going to come home soon. Its quite obvious what happened that night with Tramp and Lady.
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Well atleast they fell in love. =]
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I still find this thread funny. lol
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do u think tramp got any other dogs pregnant?
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"A Touch Of Destiny"
I Love Captain Jack!
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Me and my cousin actually had that as a plot for our 'Lady and the Tramp III' lol It was funny xD Tramp was so confused when he found out. We need to make a script so I can post it. Haha!
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lol Our storyline is so funny for it. xD But seriously, you'd think with all the female dogs Tramp slept with, he has to have other pups somewhere. Possibly he doesnt even know. lol It'd make a good plot if Disney makes a 3rd but it might not be rated 'G' Haha!
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Exactly! Why would they propose marriage to her when she's not even Aunt Sarah's dog? She belongs to Jim Dear and Darling and they were coming home that night. And as for the age of their baby and the timeline, we don't know how many months it's been since the baby's birth and Jim Dear and Darling's trip. We never actually see the baby again between April and December.
Charlie Murphy!! *punch*- Dave Chappelle as Rick James share
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I think it was fairly obvious something happened that night by the way Lady and Tramp acted right after they got up. Like "Oh yeah baby good times..good times"
Even though it didn't show it it certainly was implied in their expressions after that night. Mainly really tramp's expression though and the way her long ear is drapped over him in a way like a person would throw an arm around somebody.. doesn't look like they just slept there lol.
It's always funny to see what the Disney animators put in just for kicks!
I want Sean Whalen! I want him bad!
I just read all the comments on this forum and decided based only on the dates given by the movie to make a timeline to determine if the puppies were conceived on the Bella Notte night. So, we know that Lady was given to Darling on Christmas day for that to have happened Lady would've had to be 2 months old (l assume), which means she was born in October. Her first heat period would've had to be six months later, on April. That same year the baby was conceived sometime in August and Lady went again into heat in October, and finally turning one year in December. The next year the baby is born in April and Lady goes into heat that same month as well. So, in order for her to have had her babies and for them to have been at least born sometime by December she would have gone into heat in October once again. So there you have it. I have certainly over analyzed the whole movie and I sincerely doubt any of the people involved in making it thought about it but for the sake of the the topic, that's what I got.
Personally, I think it is very likely that their spaghetti night could have happened in october since
A: The bay would have been old enough to leave for a couple of days with someone
B: The opening scene of the day that Darling and Jim dear are packing has leaves falling from a tree which indicate that it is Fall and therefore, quite likely the month of October or al least very early in the month of october which would give enough time for the babies to be born sometime in early December and therefore have been (and this is a stretch) sometime between 2 to 3 weeks old.
"People are bastard coated bastards with bastard filling" -Dr. Cox and Bob Kelso from "Scrubs"
I definitely would place the scene where Jim and Darling are packing in early fall. For a moment I thought I caught a continuity goof when the zoo and park scenes still looked like summer, but then I took a closer look at the foliage here in northern Virginia. A few maple trees are far advanced in fall colors while most of the canopy is still solid green, and the tulip poplars have been dropping a few leaves since late August. I would say the color scheme in the picture was within reason for September or early October, which would be consistent with puppies by Christmas day.
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