It wouldn't be at all difficult to find out where the Dadiers lived. There's the phone book if nothing else.
I'm a bit mystified by your comment that,
They were written so perfectly. I can't believe that this kid had such a terrific knowledge of spelling, grammar, and sentence construction.
These were short notes of maybe six or eight words. They were very basic. ("He's with that woman again", that kind of thing.) At that brief length they hardly even qualify as letters (I think in their classroom showdown Dadier accuses West of writing "those foul notes to my wife" -- even he calls them "notes", not letters.) It would be very difficult to write those kinds of notes poorly -- just a few very basic words, hardly any grammar or anything else to worry about. And saying that the author had a "terrific knowledge" of spelling, grammar and sentence construction is frankly completely bizarre. These are very short, simple, declarative notes of a few words, not love letters from Cyrano de Bergerac. Even students in this school had that much rudimentary education.
As for how Dadier came to the conclusion that West had written them, frankly for me this has always been one of those things you want to shout "How can you be so stupid" at the screen about. Dadier (Glenn Ford) spends so much time assuming Miller (Sidney Poitier) wrote them that he's dumbfoundingly blind to the obvious culprit, West (Vic Morrow); only at the end, when West threatens him in their showdown, does this obvious fact finally fall on the teacher's head like an anvil. Overall he goes through this movie as a pretty dense individual, even for a teacher.
Your idea that the pretty teacher may have written the notes makes no sense -- why would she send notes to Dadier's wife telling her he's "with that other woman" -- the teacher herself? That would only break up the affair. Believe me, kids like these are more than capable of writing such things, and it's hardly a "prank" -- West is trying to destroy his teacher's life any way he can. He's deadly serious, not just messing around.
This storyline was necessary for the film. It shows just how dangerous some of these kids can be -- their maliciousness isn't limited to the classroom.
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MsELLERYqueen2
7 years ago
Phone book? They might have been unlisted.
Maybe things were different at your school, but when I was in junior high and high school, I don't remember any kid ever caring about the love lives of our teachers. No one cared and that was that...unless two teachers in the same school were dating, which did happen in junior high. In that case, we just heard about their wedding and we knew about the lady's last name change, that's all. That's why it surprised me that any student would have bothered with these letters.
I stand by what I said, that these anonymous letters sounded like they were from some adult out to cause trouble.
Honestly, I'm not sure why this teacher kept thinking that Poitier's character was the troublemaker, when it was obvious that Morrow's character was the nasty one (involved with gangs, etc.). Morrow's character started pretty much everything.
Back to those anonymous letters...of course they weren't "love letters from Cyrano de Bergerac" , but a person still had to be literate to write them. Morrow's character was bright, but I got the impression that he might have been illiterate. What sort of learning went on during those English classes, anyway? This teacher couldn't teach those kids anything, and I'm assuming that teachers before him were no different.
~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =
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hobnob53
7 years ago
Oh, come on -- unlisted? You're sounding a bit desperate. Anyway, that's highly unlikely -- why would he bother? Requesting an unlisted number costs money, which he couldn't afford. And besides, if you remember Morrow calls his house and talks to the wife -- so obviously he knows their phone number, which means he certainly knows the address. One way or another it's not hard to find where the teacher lives.
You can stand by anything you like, but the notes -- not letters -- were of a very simple, basic level of writing. There was nothing "adult" about them in terms of their literacy, style or content. There is no evidence of or need for anyone possessing a "terrific" grasp of grammar and spelling to write them, especially for notes of around half a dozen words. What was in any of these notes that strikes you as requiring someone of high education, high literacy or being over 18 to write them? Sorry, but this is nonsense.
In an case, in terms of the movie we know it's being done by West well before Dadier figures it out. Clearly there is no indication they were sent by some adult, or for that matter anyone other than Vic Morrow.
The students weren't hidden geniuses but as I said they were mostly depicted in the film as kids of average intelligence, a few like Miller higher. Only Santini was clearly supposed to be backward. West (Morrow) wasn't an Einstein but he wasn't illiterate or so dumb that he couldn't write "He's with that woman again". These extremely simple and basic notes are not something that requires an adult or someone of high intelligence to write.
But we agree on how naïve and frankly dumb Mr. Dadier was about a lot of things, for a long, long time.
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MsELLERYqueen2
7 years ago
I'm not changing my mind. Some kids will do things to piss off the teachers, but it's generally at school. Like I said before, I don't recall any of my classmates caring what our teachers did on their own time. Even if there was an affair or something, I can't imagine that any of us would have cared.
I can see Vic's character destroying the tape recorder and the reel-to-reel equipment. I'm surprised that he didn't. I'm not one bit surprised that he went to the principal and twisted around what the teacher had said. (I'm also not surprised that the principal sided with the student. Not much has changed...) But those anonymous letters? Sorry, I just don't see a student bothering with something like that. Can you honestly tell me that you and your friends would have even thought of such a thing when you were teens in junior/senior high? Come on.
As for literacy, I've seen user comments posted for news articles on the websites for our local news media. Believe me, I've seen just how many mistakes a sentence like "Liberals have no morals" can have (when reading those user comments). Someone will write a sentence like that and it will contain a couple of spelling errors, a period in the middle of the sentence, a comma right after the period...need I go on? Okay, I doubt that most people outside of my province are as illiterate as some people in my province, but the point is that I've seen simple sentences botched up in extremely creative ways. (A couple of those sites no longer allow user comments. I'm not surprised.)
Sorry, but the printing in those letters just didn't look like something that Vic's character would have written. Also, the printing was too neat. I'm simply not convinced. It's a subplot which should have been left out of this otherwise excellent film.
~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =
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hobnob53
7 years ago
I didn't do things like send notes to my teachers in school because I wasn't an immoral thug. (Well, I was no Vic Morrow!) Nor did I destroy equipment or tattle to the principal or do any of the destructive things those kids did. But writing nasty notes to the teacher's wife is entirely in character with those sorts of actions. It's actually one of the lesser offenses West commits.
As to the notes themselves, have it your way, but there's nothing in them that requires a "terrific" grasp of grammar and spelling. They're very basic, as basic as you can get. Even if you don't think that Artie West (Morrow) was smart enough to have composed even such rudimentary notes, two things: (1) if they were too elevated for a student in that class, then by logic they were far too elementary for an adult, especially another teacher, to have written; an adult would have written something much more complex; and (2) in any case, West did write the notes, so obviously they weren't beyond his capability. So actually this whole discussion is basically moot.
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MsELLERYqueen2
7 years ago
I know that Vic's character actually did write those notes. My point was that it's a very unrealistic part of the film and should have been left out. I think it's out of character for a high school student to pull such a prank.
If an adult had written those letters, the adult would have had to keep it simple, so there wouldn't have been anything unrealistic about an adult sending those letters to the home of this teacher.
~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =
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hobnob53
7 years ago
How is it out of character for a punk like West to write nasty notes to his teacher's wife? He assaults the teacher in an alley, permanently scarring him; he's part of the gang that hijacks that truck; he threatens to kill Dadier with a knife in the classroom; and that doesn't even get into less deadly offenses like smashing Josh's records. How would writing a few notes possibly be out of character or, in this instance, "unrealistic"?
And again, this is hardly something that constitutes a "prank". A prank would be hiding the classroom's chalk. Threatening the teacher's wife is anything but a prank.
If an adult had written those letters, the adult would have had to keep it simple, so there wouldn't have been anything unrealistic about an adult sending those letters to the home of this teacher.
First, the adult wouldn't have
had to keep it simple; an adult might or might not keep it simple. But now you agree that the notes were simple -- not things that indicate a "terrific" grasp of grammar, spelling and so forth. Even West was capable of such simple, basic notes.
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MsELLERYqueen2
7 years ago
I'm ready to agree to disagree with you on this issue.
Some students will play pranks at school. A handful will even go as far as to assault a teacher outside the school (especially in these kinds of neighborhoods). But somehow, I just remember that absolutely no one, even the worst kids, would have gone out of their way to interfere in a teacher's private life.
This argument is getting to be a bit circular, so I'll just let you have the last word here.
~~~~~
Jim Hutton (1934-79) & Ellery Queen =
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hobnob53
7 years ago
HE'S WRITING POSTS
ABOUT THAT ROTTEN
ARTIE WEST
AGAIN. YOU'RE IN
MY CLASSROOM NOW,
TEACH. HOW'S MY
GRAMMAR?
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