Lee Harvey Oswald - Suddenly (1954) Discussion

[–] Kirador 19 years ago

It's a fact that he saw the film just days before the assassination.

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[–] MercuryOne 19 years ago

Prove it, please.

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[–] Kirador88 19 years ago

Okay.:)

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[–] tggg85 19 years ago

Kitty Kelly in her unauthorized biography of Frank Sinatra ALLEGES that Lee Harvery Oswald saw the film before the assasination of President John F. Kennedy. Aside from what she wrote there is no historical evidence that this is true.

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[–] BSpielbauer 15 years ago

MercuryOne -- >>>Prove it, please.<<<

Uh, okay, but only because you said "please..."

"In the month before the assassination Oswald may have entered into his revolutionary fantasies whilst watching television. A Secret Service interview with Marina was first recognised by Jean Davison as a telling indication of Oswald's state of mind. Marina told agents that on Friday, October 18th. Oswald had watched two movies on television and he had been “greatly excited”. The first movie was Suddenly, in which Frank Sinatra played an ex-soldier who planned to shoot an American president. Sinatra’s character was to shoot the president with a high-powered rifle from the window of a house overlooking a railway station. The second movie, We Were Strangers, was based on the overthrow of Cuba’s Machado regime in 1933.John Garfield had played an American who had gone to Cuba to help a group of rebels assassinate the Cuba leader. Oswald’s reactions to these movies made a strong impression on his wife, according to the Secret Service report."

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The book "Oswald's Game," by Jean Davison, may be the first time one of the legit researchers made special note of this. Davison noticed a brief reference in the Warren Commission Report supplements (the 28 volumes of evidence) wherein Marina Oswald (now Porter) mentioned how Lee viewed this film. The Warren Commission then verified that the film had viewed on one of the local Dallas TV stations on the night in question, just shortly prior to Oswald's assassination of JFK.

Because of this, Jean Davison specifically asked Marina to elaborate on this viewing in her lengthy interviews. (For those who do not know, Davison's book is essentially comprised of 18 months' worth of extensive and detailed interviews with Marina Oswald, which took place in Richardson, Texas less than three years after the assassination.)

Link to Davison's book, now out of print, cbut can be found in many libraries:

http://www.amazon.com/Davison-OswaldS-Game-Paper-Jean/dp/0393302652/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226196710&sr=8-1

If you would prefer, you can just grab any Warren Commission Report, and check the index in the back, and it will refer you to the original interview with Marina.

http://www.amazon.com/Warren-Commission-Report-Presidents-Assassination/dp/159986925X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226197165&sr=1-1

The 28 volumes -- the exhibits and interviews which back up the written report -- are in many university libraries, if you wish to read the precise words of Marina's original interview. Or, they are also available now on CD-Rom.

And, yes, I am afraid Oswald did kill Kennedy. Shakespeare also write the plays. And, Elvis is dead. Still.

Sigh.

-B

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[–] thbryn (226) 5 months ago

I couldn't ID the weapon Frank wanted to use. But it appeared to me a Military issue BAR (with a scope) semi-auto. It was nothing like the piece of junk LHO used and this was almost ten years before Dallas.

For the record I don't believe LHO hit the President. He may have shot but I do think he was a Patsy.

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[–] timpcap2000 19 years ago

I just saw the DVD for sale at Walgreen's tonight and the packaging states that Oswald did watch the film just before the assination of President Kennedy. It also said on the box that this was the reason that Frank Sinatra pulled the movie from circulation. Don't know if thats the reality but thats what the box stated.

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[–] movielover35 18 years ago

I just saw this movie for the first time tonight. I hadn't even heard of it. The presenter of the movie said Sinatra pulled it out of circulation (Or was it the Manchurian Candidate, see link below) after learning that Oswald had watched it before the Kennedy assassination. I wish they would provide some proof, like a TV guide from the Dallas stations for October or November 1963 listing the movie as being shown.

I found an interesting book at Amazon about this:

Oswald's Trigger Films

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0964889730/103-7546237-9968660?v=glance&n=283155

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[–] darincroft 17 years ago

The Manchurian Candidate was pulled out of circulation for a little under 30 years after the Kennedy assassination ( I think it was like 28 years)

I seriously doubt the idea that Oswald watched "Suddenly" the day before the assassination. Suddenly was never shelved to my knowledge.

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[–] beatlenut8 14 years ago

" I just saw this movie for the first time tonight. I hadn't even heard of it. The presenter of the movie said Sinatra pulled it out of circulation (Or was it the Manchurian Candidate, see link below) after learning that Oswald had watched it before the Kennedy assassination. I wish they would provide some proof, like a TV guide from the Dallas stations for October or November 1963 listing the movie as being shown. "

Oswald saw it a month before the assasination on Oct. 18 NOT the night before.

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[–] gate67 12 years ago

Horsehockey! Totally unproven rumours going around for years. Just like the one that said Bill Cosby wouldn't let anyone see The Little Rascals. Since Oswald was probable not JFK's killer it is unlikely this is true.

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[–] mckaigent 18 years ago

have to agree with johnny..........no matter what oswald saw the night before.....makes no difference......if you believe that good ole lee shot JFK, then you probably still believe that there is a difference between republicans and democrats

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[–] sonny_1963 18 years ago

Oswald's brother admitted Lee told him he did it when he visited him in jail.

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[–] bigross 18 years ago

The internet's a great big place, where one can find places to discuss any number of wonderful subjects. I'm sure at least one of them is a suitable location to discuss whether or not LHO actually did shoot JFK.
Guess what...

This is not that place!

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] doctorfurby 18 years ago

I watched it on the local PBS station and the presenter said that Sinatra pulled both films but he didn't give any proof. And Low taxes and fighting for our freedoms are two examples of differences between Repubs and Demos. And the right to own guns would be another just like the Sherrif in Suddenly.

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[–] criddic2 17 years ago

Both films were put out of circulation by Sinatra, for many years because he had been close to the Kennedys for many years and felt that the films may have been partly responsible for Oswald's action. Not sure which one was viewed by Oswald, but it's possible he saw both.

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[–] mrsastor 17 years ago

For starters, there was no such thing as home video in 1963. In order for Oswald to have seen this film, it would had to have been broadcast on television or run at a local theatre, either of which could have and would have been easily proven by now.

And the point is moot as Oswald did not shoot President Kennedy.

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[–] jeffreyirabernstein 16 years ago

Dear mrastor,

According to Vincent Bugliosi in his recent book Reclaiming History, Oswald and his wife Marina went to a local theatre to see "Suddenly" in early Oct. 1963. This can be found on page 764 of the book.

He also mentions that they saw the film "We were Strangers" with John Garfield.
This film deals with the attempted overthrow of the Cuban hierarchy by revolutionaries. Oswald was a Marxist, disillusioned with both Soviet Communism and American Republicanism. He appeared to admire both the Cuban revolution and Castro so this film would have strong meaning for him.
Other people on the message board have explained what his obvious identification with "Suddenly" would be.

My understanding is that Marina supplied the information concerning seeing the two movies although she did recall she slept during them on her husbands lap. Because she did not speak English at this time one can understand her boredom, but it makes one question her recollection of exactly what the films were.
However, the fact that the Oswald’s had little money does mean that a treat like going to the movies and what was seen would really leave a lasting impression, especially since this was an opportunity to be close to her husband for a few hours.

I am not going to go into whether Oswald was the lone assassin or if there was a conspiracy, a guy like Bugliosi has written a 1,500 page book discussing the subject and it has been explored in countless books. As a message writer correctly stated this is not the place for that.
If Oswald did see the two films they would certainly have had a major influence on him since unlike many of his contemporaries of the same age, he was very astute politically. In fact Oswald’s idea that the Soviet Union represented oppression and the U.S. poverty appears to have been right on target.

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[–] 16 years ago

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[–] brobertsumc 14 years ago

E Howard Hunt was LBJ's decades long mistress? I did not know that.

Why would Richard Nixon have to give approval to the JFK assassination? He wasn't even in office at the time. Did they get Ed Sullivan's approval too?

And why can't Bugliosi be trusted? Because he doesn't say what you want to hear?

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[–] andrewwjohnson 14 years ago

..........Conspiracy theories aside by November 22, 1963 "The Manchurian Candidate" had been in the theaters for over a year and hadn't been that successful so taking the movie out circulation wasn't that big a deal for the studio or Sinatra. Of course it would have been the height of bad taste to show the movie right after the Kennedy assassination. It was shown, in prime time, on CBS less then two years later............If Oswald had really watched "Suddenly" before shooting Kennedy why hasn't anyone has found TV Guide or Newspaper listings proving the movie was aired in the Dallas area. It's a good ironic story that comes up in books and other media from time to time, but did it ever happen?

True genius is a beautiful thing, but ignorance is ugly to the bone.

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[–] jayrussell1993 10 years ago

That's funny, Sen Ted Kennedy and Jacqueline Kennedy were convinced Oswald killed JFK, alone, like the demented dirty little communist he was. All Presidential assassins in the country have always been the same, preoccupied with their misplaced ideas of personal grandeur.

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[–] cminj2001 9 years ago

That's certainly not true. Jackie, Ted and Bobby understood that Lyndon Johnson had arranged the murder. They were powerless to do anything while the maniac was in power. LBJ controlled J. Edgar Hoover and Hoover owned the FBI. Who was going to arrest Lyndon, no matter what the proof.

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[–] PrometheusTree64 8 years ago

Yes, Ted said contradictory things publicly, but Bobby and Jackie knew damned well pretty soon that Oswald wasn't the gunman -- Bobby and Jackie blamed LBJ.

--
LBJ's mistress on JFK:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcXeutDmuRA

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[–] h_palka 18 years ago

If Oswald didn't do it, why did he run away from the scene of the crime, just like O. J., even leaving his jacket behind? Why did he shoot a cop who just wanted to ask him a question?
On the morning of the assassination, Oswald went to the bank, withdrew his life savings(of $42.61-a conspiracy payoff, no doubt) and gave it to his wife. He also took off his wedding ring and left it in the coffee cup for her, as if he wanted to leave her something to remember him by. In short, Oswald acted like a man who knew he was gonna die.

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[–] mrsastor 17 years ago

Thank you Gerald Posner. How did Oswald go to the bank when he started work an hour before the bank opened?

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[–] atheismyes 17 years ago

Oswald went to the bank a day before.

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[–] h_palka 18 years ago

Yes. Check Jean Davison's OSWALD's GAME. He admitted to his wife Marina how much he liked the film.
There's every reason to believe that Oswald identified with the character played by Sinatra in SUDDENLY. Like Oswald, John Baron's father(that's Blue Ey es' character's name)died before he was born. Like Oswald, Baron-Sinatra was dishonorably discharged. and how does Baron-Sinatra plan to kill the President? By firing a gun from an open window, like Oswald did in real life. As Oscar Wilde said, "Life imitates art." Thus the entire riddle of the Kennedy assassination is solved: Oswald got the idea from a movie! No conspiracy, no mystery. Case closed!

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[–] route_67 18 years ago

Mr.Palka,
I do believe that Lee shot at Kennedy, but there was more involved...
his shot DID NOT kill Kennedy...but naturally he was part of the scene..
many things Lee did NOt know...he found out in a hurry...

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[–] h_palka 18 years ago

Mr. 67.
In order to have a conspiracy, you need conspirators. Oswald's elderly landlady said that no one ever visited him at his boarding-house, he never went out, he never received phone calls and never made them. I would think if he was part of a conspiracy he would be taken on trial runs and other meetings.
Forensic and ballistic tests show that his shot DID kill JFK.
Only a man working at a menial job would've used a rifle like the one Oswald used.

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[–] lrcdmnhd72 18 years ago

I agree. I'm a student of the JFK assasination and I feel that LHO acted alone. I've been to Dealy Plaza where the assasination took place. Oswald was a lot closer than I had ever anticipated. With all his insecurities, it is rather easy to understand what provoked LHO in to committing the JFK assasination.

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[–] Paul_Jay 18 years ago

Not to pick apart your post, but Oswald was honorably discharged. As for the "shooting from an open window" thing, If someone was going to shoot from hiding in a city or a town, the odds are pretty good they would shoot through an open window.

James Earl Ray's dad didn't die before he was born, but he was not a close father and apparently didn't have much of a relationship with James Earl. Ray fired through an open window.

In addition, the are many disimilarities, Oswald didn't wear a coat and tie, he allegedly worked alone not with a partner or as part of a conspiracy, he positioned himself in a high brick building not a private residence, Baron/Sinatra was doing the job for pay as a professional, Oswald was not.

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[–] h_palka 18 years ago

Oswald was at first honorably discharged. After he defected, it was changed to "dishonorable." After he returned from the USSR, he wrote to the Secretary of the Navy, John Connally, to see if he could change his discharge status. By one of those coincidences conspiracy nuts jump on, Connally was elected Governor of Texas and shot by Oswald along with JFK. Oswald had a motive for killing both men.
James Earl Ray's dad didn't die, but Oswald's did before he was born(so did Bill Clinton's dad die before he was born; otherwise he'd be President Bill Blyth). The only parents he ever knew was his stepfather(briefly, as the marriage was short), and his awful mother. His brother said that lee joined the Marines for the same reason he did: to get away from their idiot mother.
Marguerite Oswald was so stupid she insisted at one point that JFK and Connally had an argument and both shot each other in the car!
But the bottom line, Paul, is that Oswald was inspired by the film to kill JFK(or anybody-he wanted to kill Richard Nixon, who visited Dallas a day before Kennedy, a fact conspiracy nuts don't like to mention).

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] kenn_honeyman 17 years ago

Frank Sinatra was so upset after the assasination, that he had all copies 'reigned in'... it wasn't shown for many years... BUT Oswald was an 'old hand' at assasinations!... remember he tried to kill gen. Walker in his Dallas home. with the same rifle[!] his bullet hit a window frame, and just missed the right-wing zealot, Walker.

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[–] wallerworld 17 years ago

Here's an excerpt from an article entitled Lee Harvey Oswald’s Motives by Mel Ayton...

In the month before the assassination Oswald may have entered into his revolutionary fantasies whilst watching television. A Secret Service interview with [Oswald's wife] Marina was first recognized by Jean Davison as a telling indication of Oswald’s state of mind. Marina told agents that on Friday, October 18th, [1963,] Oswald had watched two movies on television and he had been “greatly excited.” The first movie was “Suddenly,” in which Frank Sinatra played an ex-soldier who planned to shoot an American president. Sinatra’s character was to shoot the president with a high-powered rifle from the window of a house overlooking a railway station. The second movie “We Were Strangers” was based on the overthrow of Cuba’s Machado regime in 1933. John Garfield had played an American who had gone to Cuba to help a group of rebels assassinate the Cuba leader. Oswald’s reactions to these movies made a strong impression on his wife according to the Secret Service report.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/motives.htm

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[–] aldiboronti 16 years ago

This movie was pulled by Sinatra, nothing to do with Oswald having seen or not seen it. Sinatra just didn't want people to see a movie with him as a would-be Presidential assassin with Kennedy having just been killed, simple as that.

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[–] hueydoc 16 years ago

According to Frank Sinatra Jr in the TCM showing tonite he said that his father did not have the film rights or ownership to pull this pic, but he did write an angry letter to the tv station that aired it a week after the assasination. He said the movie that was pulled was The Manchurian Candidate.

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[–] jacawaro 14 years ago

No Message

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[–] blakjak_cc 13 years ago

"Influence
Another person who was certainly aware of Suddenly, whether or not he ever saw it, was Lee Harvey Oswald, the assassin of President John F. Kennedy in 1963. The movie played at several New Orleans theatres for two months in the winter of 1954-55, at a time when Oswald was living there and was a 15-year-old borderline juvenile delinquent. In his teenage world, Oswald cannot have been ignorant of such a violent and sensational movie.
It was long thought that Oswald actually saw Suddenly on television in October 1963 (one month before the assassination of Kennedy), but an investigation of that claim eventually revealed that he did not. The confusion arose because Oswald actually saw another presidential assassination film, We Were Strangers, not once but twice on one weekend in October 1963. His twofold viewing of that film came to be understood, in all the chaos immediately following the assassination of Kennedy, as his having seen two different assassination films at that time. Suddenly was naturally but mistakenly believed to have been the "second" one. Vincent Bugliosi, in his 2007 work Reclaiming History, claims that Oswald did see Suddenly on television in October 1963, but Bugliosi misquoted and ignored several other findings, and his claim is not correct."

from...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suddenly_(1954_film)

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[–] Jason_Radley 12 years ago

The confusion arose because Oswald actually saw another presidential assassination film, We Were Strangers, not once but twice on one weekend in October 1963. His twofold viewing of that film came to be understood, in all the chaos immediately following the assassination of Kennedy, as his having seen two different assassination films at that time. Suddenly was naturally but mistakenly believed to have been the "second" one. Vincent Bugliosi, in his 2007 work Reclaiming History, claims that Oswald did see Suddenly on television in October 1963, but Bugliosi misquoted and ignored several other findings, and his claim is not correct.

Sounds plausible. Unless TV stations back then were in the habit of running presidential assassination themed film nights, it'd be a remarkable coincidence if both films were screened across the same day or weekend in the Dallas area.

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