And yet Norman discovers her true worth at an after-hours dive on Sunset Boulevard! Certainly someone listed above would have more than likely discover her at the Grove, or even at the Shrine Auditorium show..... Were the power pushers in Hollywood really that blind????
No plot hole. That's not how I see it at all.
First of all, we don't KNOW that Glenn Williams was a "big name" orchestra. It could have just been a fill-in act. Esther was paying her dues -- and paying the rent.
Secondly, in my opinion, the relationship between Norman and Esther is that he became her MENTOR. Hollywood is litterd with the bodies of good performers -- some, maybe even better than Garland -- but, we never heard of them, because no one gave them a chance. Norman gave Esther that chance.
Thirdly, as stated in the script, Esther's dream was to be a famous singer -- not a movie star. Norman used his connections with the Studio to give her exposure. Movie stardom was the result.
In real life, how often have we heard, "it's not what you know (or what your talents are), but WHO you know?"
In the end, Esther realized the GIFT that Norman gave her was his trust in her talent. She decides not to retire into obscurity, but to continue to be an entertainer. She may have never been discovered, if not for Norman.
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Chesterfield_Invincible
10 years ago
I won't argue with you. You have your differences in how you see the plot, and I have mine. I'll only say that Glenn Williams was a "big name" orchestra, because Danny told Esther "It took you years to get into a big-time band like Glenn's"....or words to that effect
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Gubbio
10 years ago
I won't argue with you. You have your differences in how you see the plot, and I have mine.
I wasn't looking for an argument. It's good to agree to disagree.
But, from my perspective, the essence of the plot is that Norman took Esther under his wing. No one else did.
Even Esther was incredulous at Norman's assessment of her talent. She considered herself "just another singer" trying to "make it."
Peace,
Gub
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gbennett5
10 years ago
I agree with the OP - it IS somewhat of a plot hole. And even TCM
host Robert Osborne has mentioned that it is somewhat absurd that
Esther - who is no spring chicken when the film begins - wouldn't been
been discovered with that remarkable voice. But it's the same thing with
Streisand, who was also in/playing her 30s. She would've long been
discovered, as well. It's hard to swallow, but it doesn't stop
Garland's version (Streisand's is pretty awful) from being the great
film that it is.
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Gubbio
10 years ago
It's hard to swallow...
I don't think it's hard to swallow if you're willing to suspend disbelief and assume that Esther is supposed to be twenty-ish and not Judy's hardened, been through it all, age of 32.
I don't think we're supposed to assume that Esther has been singing (with that voice!) for 15 years and has gotten nowhere. She's supposed to be a young person, just starting out.
That's my reading of it, anyway.....
I still believe there may be singers better than Garland and Streisand, but we've never heard them, because no one gave them a break. I don't think anyone gets by on talent alone.
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gbennett5
10 years ago
Sorry, I don't think it's remotely believable that Garland (especially)
or Streisand are under 30. And Esther does discuss singing for years.
Anyone with her kind of voice would've discovered the joy of singing at
a very young age.
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Gubbio
10 years ago
Sorry, I don't think it's remotely believable that Garland (especially) or Streisand are under 30.
The question, in my opinion, isn't whether or not it's believable. It really isn't believable.
Even among Judy's admirers, the general consensus has always been that Judy was 32,
playing younger, and looking 42.
I wonder what age the writers, producers, and Cukor had in mind. That would be my question.
Again, it's called "acting" for a reason.
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10 years ago
[deleted]
Gubbio
10 years ago
Gubbio, please! It's only a movie! A great movie no doubt, but ONLY a movie! (I had to temporarily unignore you to read your newest messages.)
This is a discussion board; we're having a discussion. Do I need your permission?
And, if it's "only a movie," why are YOUR panties in a wad?
Please put me back on "ignore." We'll BOTH be happier that way.
Personally, I don't use the "ignore list." I think it's childish.
Fool!
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Professional_Tourist
10 years ago
It's hard to swallow...
I don't think it's hard to swallow if you're willing to suspend disbelief and assume that Esther is supposed to be twenty-ish and not Judy's hardened, been through it all, age of 32.
I don't think we're supposed to assume that Esther has been singing (with that voice!) for 15 years and has gotten nowhere. She's supposed to be a young person, just starting out.
Moss Hart's description of Esther in the script included her age to be mid-twenties, which means Judy was five to seven years too old for the part.
If Esther had started singing professionally at eighteen, she'd have been working approx. seven years by the time she met Norman. That could be considered a long time, especially from her own point of view, to get to the point of working with a successful orchestra like Glenn Williams.
If one considers she was on the road most of the time, not staying in one place very long, it's not so hard to believe that even with her talent she would not yet have hit the really big time. Even after the benefit at the Shrine auditorium, if someone besides Norman had been impressed by her singing and tried to contact her the next day, it would have been too late -- the orchestra was leaving town at 6am. If Norman hadn't awakened in the middle of the night and tried to track her down (knowing that the orchestra had had a late night set at the Grove directly after the benefit) he would have missed her too.
Another point is that Esther did not have a great deal of self-confidence. She didn't see herself as an exceptional talent, so she didn't take big risks. Although she did have the dream of a hit record one day, she thought she was already doing pretty well. It took Norman's belief in her to get her to take a chance, to leave the band and remain in Hollywood.
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EliotTempleton
9 years ago
Robert Osborne is hardly the Oracle of Delphi. It's a rare occasion that in his remarks, pre- and post- broadcast, that he doesn't make at least one glaring error.
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