"I seriously doubt Millie, who was pregnant, was able to corral these six girls away from the brothers before and after the snow melted. She would have been much further along and hardly able to waddle after each girl."
It was the frontier. The women there not only helped out but looked after one another very closely. As head of the household...if anyone was missing, Millie would know about it. Besides, they were there in the house helping her when they realized she was with child. If one went out for firewood and was gone for 20 minutes, that would raise flags. Again, holes can be poked in either POV, but clearly there is no proof anything happened...again just simple speculation.
"Likewise, had the girls remained so pristine, when the priest asked whose baby was it, they all declared, "Mine!""
Not necessarily. They simply wanted to ensure the men they loved were spared. If they were pristine, are you saying they wouldn't lie to protect them? Again...no proof and a reach at best.
"NONE of them were offended that a priest, of all people, would even suspect they didn't maintain their virginity, IF that were the case. The girls put the safety of the beloved brothers first over their own image."
Again...not necessarily. They just went through an ordeal where the men they all loved were about to be killed. Being offended at the suggestion of infidelity versus the very life of them they loved about to be killed can easily explain that.
"This was a mountain lifetstyle. As Millie described, the brothers and brides would all be married and living nearby. There would be no intruding gossipy neighbors interfering with their reputations."
Not neighbors...the other girls. Again, you saw how they were called out for the simple possibility for even moderately exposing themselves from afar? And you think they wouldn't absolutely have a very firm negative reputation if it was even suspected one of them slept with one of the brothers?
"And how would any neighbors be as aware of what did and didn't happen between the neighbors as people apparently are here?"
See above. Unless you think the other women wouldn't never speak of it amongst themselves, to their parents, or anyone else in the town.
"If we believe, as this beloved, gracious "majority" apparently do, that the girls remained chaste, what difference would it make what the townsfolk, the nearest neighbors as it was, thought about them?"
Who is equating the two? I simply pointed out the majority on the board found your assertion lacking in merit as it was entirely speculative in nature. No one insinuated they cared what the townsfolk felt in a music motion picture :)
"Regardless of if the girls put out or not, Mrs. Bixby is going to believe they did."
And from the initial kidnapping. they were assuming it was not consensual...same as the rest of them. Even Adam would want to string them up at first chance if it happened to Hannah. Holding the girls in a negative light for potential rape wasn't shown to be their frame of mind.
"Once again, the conflict seems to arise from the need to believe that pre-marital sex wasn't discovered or even aware of in such a mainstream movie as this glossy 1950s Hollywood musical. Everyone in this time period waited until they were married."
Not necessarily. Its not the need to believe. Its just how the events of the movie were presented. It could be more accurate to surmise that you feel the need to push the narrative that it did occur. Since there is nothing more to suggest they did other than speculation, the point wasn't accepted by a majority of those who responded to your post.
"For crying out loud, Benjamin Franklin admitted he had a son out of wedlock. People knew what pre-marital sex was in the 1800s as well as the 1950s. We've all been deluded into thinking everything began with the hippies."
Well, this wasn't a biography about Ben Franklin. It was a movie where no sex was shown and even simple kissing was close to scandalous for unmarried couples. So in a practical sense, who knows. But from what was shown in the movies, it was a reach at best and not exactly accepted by many who watched the movie.
Edit: Don't get me wrong...its a cute topic. Its just that everything mentioned is how it could have happened, maybe, speculated, or they weren't watched every moment. While that is good and dandy to toy with a notion in the movie suggesting that was the case...let alone it being something that you would claim so fiercely for such a long time (and on an imbd board no less); it simply wasn't evident by what we were shown. But again, if you want to believe that was the case in the movie, I hope it gives you completion in your life even if the majority don't embrace it. Good day to you, sir. :)
"Life with no freedom is a waste. Freedom with no honor is a bigger waste."
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richard.fuller1
11 years ago
It's amazing you can say the girls would lie to protect the men they loved when the priest asked whose baby it was, but that means the girls had to be in the brothers presence for a length of time for a baby to be born and conceived with only a pregnant mother to chaperone them and still absolutely NOTHING would have happened with these six couples, other than hand-holding.
And flags being raised? Frontier women looking out for one another? How well did they manage to do that then that it can't be done nowadays? Women today slipped up or something? Let me guess. We have more distractions, don't we?
Wandering off at picnics with no cell phones to distract as we do nowadays (which you figure if that were the case today, there would be less pregnancies going on today) and they did nothing but 'spoon' and picked flowers?
I can extend the same courtesy, friend.
Anyone who wishes to believe these ladies remained pure for whatever reason; to keep the movie cute or a need to scoff at granma's generation as not knowing how to have sex before marriage, they were too brainwashed by society and their parents to know what to do when off by themselves, so be it. Congratulations, you're in the majority.
For some reason that seems to be important to the younger generation. Always has been.
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averagejoeman2013
11 years ago
"It's amazing you can say the girls would lie to protect the men they loved when the priest asked whose baby it was, but that means the girls had to be in the brothers presence for a length of time for a baby to be born and conceived with only a pregnant mother to chaperone them and still absolutely NOTHING would have happened with these six couples, other than hand-holding."
Its not amazing that a woman would lie to protect the man she loved. And even with the long winter it was biologically impossible in that short span of time for a child to be conceived and brought to term before the townspeople were able to clear the open pass. It was already winter when the ordeal began, so even if a child was conceived the night of the kidnapping, that gives you 5 months tops. Try again.
"And flags being raised? Frontier women looking out for one another? How well did they manage to do that then that it can't be done nowadays? Women today slipped up or something? Let me guess. We have more distractions, don't we?"
They had one house they stayed in with the extent of their leaving it being to sweep the porch and get firewood. If you look at history (and other references from the movie), you would see that the men usually courted young ladies in the presence of the parents. Maybe a lone conversation on the porch would be permitted (within sight of her parents), but a single girl being alone with a man was scandalous. Being "God fearing" country as Adam admitted, it wouldnt happen. And we see some of the girls being courted are either in the presence of other girls...or the parents. Try again.
"Wandering off at picnics with no cell phones to distract as we do nowadays (which you figure if that were the case today, there would be less pregnancies going on today) and they did nothing but 'spoon' and picked flowers?"
Speculative. You can assume whatever, but nothing of that nature was shown in the movie, nor socially acceptable at the time.
"Anyone who wishes to believe these ladies remained pure....."
...because they didnt show or suggest otherwise in the movie, that would make us (the majority) observant and grounded in reality..not speculation. No one is saying that sort of thing didnt not occur even long before the time period in question. But what is apparent is that the way the women and the times were portrayed in the movie; it didnt occur. Even a kiss was borderline and that was with a man that had been courting the girl for a considerable length of time.
"For some reason that seems to be important to the younger generation. Always has been."
Missed the point again. It has nothing to do with an ideal being important or not, your entire thread you started 5 years ago was based upon the contention the girls were having sex. You were simply called out on that (although that sort of thing may or may not have happened in an identical situation), it wasn't supported by any events in the film to substantiate a claim.
"I can extend the same courtesy, friend."
As can I. Why have you spent five years trying to convince others the girls in a muscial from the 50's were having sex?
:: Edit:"
"Friend, you clearly want to go by what is shown in the movie, then this is a lost cause. No sex was shown IN the movie, so clearly there was no sex."
So you got the point. The sex was never insinuated as it was an innocent musical and even a kiss was risky during courting.
"Adam and Millie weren't shown having sex either, so how did baby Hannah come about?"
A married couple so it was expected. The brothers even gave each other knowing looks/grins when they heard the bed on Adam's wedding night. In a way, they knew it was expected when married...but thats as far as it went.
"There was much more to chores back then than 'sweeping a porch and getting firewood' (again, you are only going by what the movie shows) and more than enough chores for these twelve people to do (and Millie as long as she could) to keep them all busy and moving about all over the grounds that would hardly confine the women to being in eyeview of the house."
Actually it took all 12 brothers most of the day to do their chores...they wouldnt have had much time for enything else. Couple that with getting things ready for the baby (both genders) and yes, it is reasonable that any prolonged absence would be known.
"Who do you think fixed the brothers' meals while they were snowed in? Do you think the brides tossed them outside for the brothers to eat in the cold or the barn?"
I think they were able to come in and pick them up quite easily...unless you are suggesting the girls took turns bringing out the dishes of food to the barn, got a quickie without anyone knowing, so insinuation of it, no one says anything, and then act shocked that one girl might have been seen in her underwear where the men could see her....ok.
"Well, obviously they didn't eat, as the movie didn't show them eating. They were too busy singing. A baby was carried within the length of one song, that's how the movie showed it!"
Actually, the movie did show them eat. They were eating like animals when Milie showed up and again the next day she showed them manners and they ate like gentlemen. Again, your stance is just too weak and entirely speculative. The girls stayed inside and resented the men for a considerable length of time. Then they began to fall in love with them but given the instances shown when even a kiss during courting was pushing the issue, it is ludicrious to suggest otherwise unless there was something substantial indicated.
"And for your information, dear one, I haven't spent five years trying to convince anyone of anything. I POSTED the original post five years ago. That doesn't mean I've been lurking all those five years, as you so eloquently have tried to elude."
And yet you have responded in kind so the evidence does suggest you are indeed "lurking". Let the rest of the posters make that decision for themself.
"Life with no freedom is a waste. Freedom with no honor is a bigger waste."
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richard.fuller1
11 years ago
Friend, you clearly want to go by what is shown in the movie, then this is a lost cause. No sex was shown IN the movie, so clearly there was no sex.
Adam and Millie weren't shown having sex either, so how did baby Hannah come about?
There was much more to chores back then than 'sweeping a porch and getting firewood' (again, you are only going by what the movie shows) and more than enough chores for these twelve people to do (and Millie as long as she could) to keep them all busy and moving about all over the grounds that would hardly confine the women to being in eyeview of the house.
Who do you think fixed the brothers' meals while they were snowed in? Do you think the brides tossed them outside for the brothers to eat in the cold or the barn?
Well, obviously they didn't eat, as the movie didn't show them eating. They were too busy singing. A baby was carried within the length of one song, that's how the movie showed it!
And for your information, dear one, I haven't spent five years trying to convince anyone of anything. I POSTED the original post five years ago. That doesn't mean I've been lurking all those five years, as you so eloquently have tried to elude.
God bless you, friend.
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