MovieChat Forums > Kiss Me Kate (1953) Discussion > Why Bobby Van ?

Why Bobby Van ?

posted 18 years ago by lunaele
22 replies | jump to latest

I really think all the cast was great in the film..... well most of them.

I do not like BOBBY VAN. Ok, he maybe was a good actor and an excelent tap dancer but he is not as good as the rest of the cast.
For example, on the dance scene "Tom, Dick or Harry" he is not so brilliant. Tommy Rall, Bob Fosse and Ann Miller are alive and great but when I see Bobby I feel that he is not in the same dancing level. It seems to me that he cannot catch up with his co-stars' lively dancing. He is slowlier. To me, he should not have been casted for the role. He looks as if the director could not find the actor he wished and Bobby was the last resort. I really do not like him in this film.

the brightness of the sun does not diminish the enchantment of the moon

[–] crazyforcinema 18 years ago

From what I've read, Bobby Van was a nice guy and a good performer. However, as you say, he can't hold a candle to either Bob Fosse or Tommy Rall in Kiss Me Kate. The adjective I come up with for his dancing is "earthbound." The two others are so light on their feet and Bobby just can't get his feet off the floor!

I don't think Bobby Van was necessarily a last resort. My guess is that when the film was being cast, these were the dancers who were available at the time (this is how the brothers in Seven Brides for Seven Brothers were cast). This was Tommy Rall's first big musical and while it wasn't Fosse's first, he was still one of the dancers in MGM's "stable," and they went where they were told.

Despite this, I love Kiss Me Kate. I can, and have, watched this over and over, and don't really mind Bobby Van's presence.

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[–] ijones-9 18 years ago

I would agree with you that Van's dancing was not on the level with Fosse and Rall and it is more than possible that Van was not the director's first choice for the role, but if you look at the film as a whole, Van's role is not that important and is not such a distraction that it should destroy your enjoyment of the film. A minor quibble IMO regarding one of MGM's best musicals.

[–] RustyPontipee 17 years ago

I read somewhere that Bobby Van was an untrained dancer, so in that respect, he did quite well hoofing it beside Tommy Rall and Bob Fosse.

I've always wanted to be a June Bride...

[–] Isaac5855 15 years ago

It was crystal clear especially when watching "Tom, Dick, or Harry" that Van was not as well trained as Rall or Fosse.

[–] ciocio-2 17 years ago

For me, the sore thumb moment is the great "From This Moment On" number; in their different ways, the two couples, Tommy Rall/Ann Miller and Bob Fosse/Carol Haney, are so killer-good. Particularly fabulous, of course, is the all too short segment that Fosse choreographed for himself and Haney--early, classic Fosse, and just a tiny taste of the transcendent talent that was Carol Haney. [A momentary pause as we mourn her early death, and all that we missed because of it. We will also recall that it was she who created such huge buzz in the original Broadway PAJAMA GAME, that movie scouts came to check her out, but instead saw chorus girl/understudy Shirley MacLaine, thrown into the role at the last minute due to Haney's injury. The rest is history.] Anyway, cute and perky as they might be, Bobby V. and Jeanne C. are not in the same league. It's OK, though; if there had been a third couple up there, dazzling us at the same level, the screen might have exploded, and we'd all be blinded by brilliance. Think of Bobby and Jeanne as a kind of pleasant break from all that...

Still, it might've been nice to see what, say, Marc Platt or Jaques D'Amboise could've done, together with...who? Vera-Ellen? Cyd Charisse? Marge Champion? Eartha Kitt? Leslie Caron? Gretchen Wyler? Who?

[–] ciocio-2 17 years ago

I misspelled Jacques D'Amboise's name--shame on me, and all honor to him.

[–] lunaele 17 years ago

I totally agree with you ciocio.

the brightness of the sun does not diminish the enchantment of the moon

[–] Isaac5855 15 years ago

Particularly fabulous, of course, is the all too short segment that Fosse choreographed for himself and Haney--early, classic Fosse, and just a tiny taste of the transcendent talent that was Carol Haney

Yes, yes, yes, yes!

[–] Mrs_Phoenix 13 years ago

Particularly fabulous, of course, is the all too short segment that Fosse choreographed for himself and Haney--early, classic Fosse, and just a tiny taste of the transcendent talent that was Carol Haney

I couldn't agree more. Possibly my favourite moment in the entire film. I never get tired of watching it.

"We stole the Statue of Liberty...! ...the small one, from Las Vegas!"

[–] dmnemaine 14 years ago

I agree with you, but it's pretty doubtful that Vera-Ellen, Cyd Charisse, Leslie Caron, or Marge Champion would have been cast in such a minor role. Three of them were leading ladies who, by 1953, had starring roles in their films. Marge Champion, while not really a leading lady (at this point she had only been the leading lady in one film, "Everything I Have Is Yours"), had done major secondary roles in two MGM musicals, "Show Boat" and "Lovely To Look At", so this bit part would have been a major step down for her. Eartha Kitt was also a huge star by 1953, so there was no way she would have done such a small part. Also, she was really a singer, not a dancer. Gretchen Wyler was a Broadway personality, and didn't have anything to do with films. I don't think the "problem" with the Bobby Van/Jeanne Coyne duet was Jeanne Coyne anyway.

[–] bradford-1 13 years ago

Van was a dancer under contract to MGM who was pretty much relegated to second-banana status. He can be seen to much better advantage in SMALL TOWN GIRL and THE AFFAIRS OF DOBIE GILLIS. Next to Fosse and Rall he of course comes off looking bad, but check him out in the aforementioned films where gets to shine on his own.
"We're fighting for this woman's honor, which is more than she ever did."

[–] poetcomic1 11 years ago

Bobby Van singing "All I Do is Dream of You" and playing the ukulele with a young Debbie Reynolds as they drift in a canoe...it is my image of youth and love and innocence for all time.

[–] EliotTempleton 9 years ago

Van was a dancer under contract to MGM who was pretty much relegated to second-banana status. He can be seen to much better advantage in SMALL TOWN GIRL and THE AFFAIRS OF DOBIE GILLIS. Next to Fosse and Rall he of course comes off looking bad, but check him out in the aforementioned films where gets to shine on his own.

Five years later, let me say that your comment is a breath of fresh air in this "bash Bobby Van" thread. He had proven elsewhere that he was a superb dancer, and what people here are overlooking is that his performance in KMK was laid out by choreographer Pan and director Sidney. He did what he was told, and performed admirably. Since he was a terrific dancer, I can only assume that his brief pairing with Jeanne Coyne in "From This Moment On" (the briefest of the three spotlighted duos) was based on her limitations, not his. Fosse and Haney shine because Ann Miller and Hermes Pan stumbled upon them working on some of their own choreography on a soundstage one day, and were so dazzled that Pan allowed them to do their own moves in the finished number.

[–] shandy8 13 years ago

I appreciated your tribute to Carol Haney!

"What do you want me to do, draw a picture? Spell it out!"

[–] oldmovies 16 years ago

Agree about Bobby's dancing compared to the others but he had a better voice than Fosse and I think that Rall's voice was dubbed.

[–] ciocio-2 15 years ago

Responding to oldmovies' Feb. 14, 2008 post (leisurely paced conversation here):

"...I think that Rall's voice was dubbed."

In fact, Tommy Rall had an excellent, strong voice, evidence of which you can hear on the original Broadway cast recording of Jerry Herman's early 1960s show MILK AND HONEY, in which Rall sings so well, including the lead on the title song. In fact, some years later, Mr. Rall had a stint singing opera, including leading roles, with the late, great Sarah Caldwell's company. He certainly had a better voice and technique than Bob Fosse, who sang serviceably. Tommy Rall is so damned packed with talent--I understand he's also a serious painter. All that said, you could very well be right about him being dubbed, as Hollywood has been known to make the oddest choices about dubbing, sometimes covering up some very good voices.

[–] laurence01 15 years ago

I very much doubt that he was dubbed.

[–] Mrs_Phoenix 13 years ago

While it's true the Fosse and Rall are exceptional (it goes with out saying). Van's role was so small it really barely made a difference at all.

"We stole the Statue of Liberty...! ...the small one, from Las Vegas!"

[–] rck1 10 years ago

Wow. I'm so surprised to see these comments about Bobby Van. I love this movie and everyone in it -- including Bobby Van.

[–] mojo2004 9 years ago

I'm a huge Bobby Van fan as well as one of Rall & Fosse. I don't get the complaints about him here. All 3 couples were good. If anything I didn't care for Ann Miller's rapid fire tapping while paired Rall in the number. I thought Van was great dancing along side of 'Debbie Reynolds & Bob Fosse' in 'The Affairs of Dobie Gillis'.

MOJO2004

[–] poetcomic1 9 years ago

I have a confession to make - MY dancing is not on a level with Fosse and Rall either.

[–] mehammster-914-406743 8 years ago

I look at it as the three of them representing three different styles of dancing: Tommy Rall being the ballet dancer, Bob Fosse being the jazz dancer and Bobby Van the Broadway hoofer. Definitely evident in this movie. I've always loved Bobby Van and Tommy Rall and have always considered Bob Fosse more choreographer than performer.