So in the end did she end up leaving the general or staying. I Missed what was said on this. I knew she had to go back with him but was wondering did she wait for her lover until after the war. Or maybe she liked playing the officer's wife part more than waiting. Why did she need her lover to be an officer.
shareKaren Holmes' husband was a Captain (a much lower rank than General), and she would have either divorced him (as she says she would) or stayed married to him, if in name only.
Karen and "her lover" -- Sergeant Warden -- would probably never have seen each other again after Karen left Hawaii. Their affair was intense, but doomed, as Karen obviously wanted to retain the social standing that came with being an officer's wife, and Warden did not want to become an officer.
Your answer is exactly what i was confused on. She seemed to be in love with her lover, yet, I did not feel he felt the same for her. Her husband as i remembered kept his rank after they went home. If she really wanted to be an officers wife after being rejected and all she had been through then she must have stayed with him despite what she said.
I certainly understand why she stepped out on him, but after all she had her thing going also. She had plenty of time to get away from him, even before the affair, so if she did not do it then then why after all said and done [loosing her lover]would she do it later. She lost what she needed to sustain her status. I doubt if her husband would have stand for a wife in name only.
On a totally separate note I got the feeling her lover used her for sex.
So...do you think "her lover," as you call him, "used her for," or was attracted to, her brilliant mind and scintilating conversation?
Both characters were adults (Warden in his mid-thirties and Karen in her early thirties), and had "been around the block" a few times. Both knew what they were getting into. Karen accepted Warden's seduction coldly and willingly, and had had affairs with other soldiers in the past ("She took up with a lot of men back at Ft. Bliss"). Their initial, completely sexual affair grew into something unexpectedly deeper, for both of them.
Realistically, do you think Warden ("her lover") would have said "I wish I didn't love you," and taken a chance at twenty years in Leavenworth (the United States' main military prison) for having an affair with his commanding officer's wife (remember, this was 1940-41, and they punished that sort of transgression that harshly in the pre-World War II Army), if he just "used her for sex?"
Don't think so.
You answered my post in a matter of fact kind of way, I did not really mean it in a bad way. It is true in they were both in the least bit naive but. I just got the feeling it was more than he not wanting to become a officer. In some cases just because one cares for there lover does not mean he is looking for something more than sex and good companionship. In there case at least she had a end game planned.
Also, her husband was kinda vengeful, at least that is how I saw him. So her divorcing him for her lover i felt would not fly with him and his ego. {not in those days and times] he was military and his reputation of him losing his wife to a lesser ranked soldier could have had a rocky conclusion.
I too liked them a lot but as war films go and major stars of that era they tend not to let cheaters off the hook as easily as today's movies no matter who is at fault, films were shot where there were no winners as this one was. So I guessed that they would write her lover as one whom would do what he did. It is how major stars wanted there scrips written as to not alienate there male dominated box appeal. After all this was Burt Lancaster and he may not have wanted to look like a sap in doing what she wanted before he as a man and a soldier followed his heart and mind. So I said he used her for sex mostly because he was not convincing enough as truly being in love with her and since that was the case to me then just what was he getting for being with her. Besides she is clearly into what she wants in a husband, [a officer].It's just how some movies were made to look like in that era of film....Of course there are many exceptions.
If she had divorced him before they started up there story then it would have been a different outcome. To understand what i was trying to say one has to look at the film with the points I made. But I do understand and respect your point of view.
Actually she no longer had the status of an Officers wife because Holmes got court-martialed for his abuses to his subordinates and to Prewitt especially.
He went back to the states a humiliated civilian and Karen went with him out of pity. And also because Warden didn't want to become an Officer she saw that she wasn't going to regain her Officer's wife status and so threw in the towel herself.
In the book she had to have a hysterectomy because Captain Holmes gave her a venereal disease. They stayed together because they had a young son.
shareDid any of you see the same movie I did? She came up with the plan for Warden to become an officer as a way for Captain Holmes to give her a divorce, not because she was enamored of the officer's wife role. Lorene/Alma was the one who wanted status, owning a house and belonging to the country club and marrying a respectable man and having respectable children. Karen asked for a divorce, so I doubt she stayed long with the captain, altho she probably had to return to the mainland when he did. When she split from Warden they had no plans to get together, but if he survives the war who knows.
And no he did not get court-martialed, he made a deal to resign instead.
www.freerice.com
'He made a deal to resign.'
Ah, yes I remember. Still what matters is the creep got the boot.
"...the creep got the boot" in the film, but not in the novel on which the film was based.
In the novel, Captain Holmes is (more realistically) promoted to Major -- which is a "field rank" position, the first rank that solidifies an officer's senior executive status in the Army.
The disgrace of Holmes, and his resignation in the film for his transgressions was a sop to the U.S. military, without whose cooperation the film could not have been made. The military did not want it to seem that its officers were rewarded for "bad behavior."
Which makes me wonder why in the novel that rat Holmes got promoted?
Was/is the army that stupid as to promote bare-faced dicks?
Or was it just a bias of the author because he had a rat for an officer who managed to dodge the bullet and get a promotion that quite frankly everyone seemed to feel he didn't deserve?
And in real life the real army wanted it made clear to the viewing audience of civilians, and therefore possible future recruits, that the real army didn't tolerate types like Holmes and that good officers take care of their men as the General pointed out at the hearing?
Read the novel. You'll understand "why the rat Holmes got promoted."
It wasn't that the Army was "that stupid as to promote bare-faced dicks" -- it's just that the Army, or more accurately, Colonel Delbert, the commanding officer of Holmes' regiment -- couldn't have cared less that Holmes was a "bare-faced dick," as you call him.
Holmes had been actively politicking for his promotion to Major with Colonel Delbert, then Holmes came into favor with a young Brigadier General (Colonel Delbert's superior), who most probably facilitated Holmes's promotion.
Kind of like the way millions of people have been promoted in lots of civilian companies in the private sector since time immemorial.
It proves that the Army is like any other institution.
Some people get busted for bad behavior some don't.
Both the movie and the novel give us a balance to the alternative fates of Captain Holmes.
Karen stayed with her cheating, jerk husband because that was their arrangement. If she divorced him, the scandal would have derailed his career and his chances of being promoted. She didn't work so he was her only visible means of support. Whether she stayed with him or not, it was in her best interest to make sure he was able to continue supporting her; either as his wife or as his ex-wife collecting alimony.
I got the impression she took various lovers more as a hobby to fill her time than anything else. They weren't all that serious until she met Warden. She wants him to be more ambitious because it makes her transition easier. Before her husband was allowed to resign she knew he would never have granted her a divorce especially if it was to marry his subordinate.
I could not agree more. From what I saw and read you to me explained it the best. Thanks for the reply...
shareI think you are being awfully hard on Karen. The affairs were not a "hobby". She was lonely and had the same urges as everyone else. She truly disliked her husband and wanted to find someone who would at least treat her decently.
The reason she pushed Warden to become an officer had nothing to do with money or status. Army officers are not rich, and she was hardly living in the lap of luxury. It's not as if she was leaving a Rockefeller for a cab driver. If he became an officer, they wouldn't have to keep their relationship a secret and it would remove the threat of military prison for Warden.
When he reneged on trying to become an officer, it was clear to her that he wasn't willing to do what was necessary for them to be together. She even points out that since her husband resigned his commission, it wasn't important anymore if Warden was an officer. But because he didn't even try despite promising he would, it's obvious he doesn't want to marry her. He was already married to the army and happy where he was. He doesn't try to deny anything she says, he just says "I love you". He probably does, just not enough.
Divorce was not looked upon favorably then, especially for women. She was willing to do it if Warden was willing to commit to her, but he really wasn't. The army and his men would always come first.
Wanting Warden to become an officer was partially so he could be transferred back to the States - and they'd both be away from her husband. Also as he was, Warden could have been in serious trouble for having an affair with his CO's wife.
It's also important to remember that Karen is depressed. She's trapped in an unhappy marriage with a husband who barely bothers to hide the fact that he's cheating on her. She also suffered a miscarriage as a result of his behaviour and can't have any more children. Her self esteem is so low she probably believes that Warden was just using her for sex - and him not becoming an officer for her is the confirmation in her mind. She doesn't get that he does love her but he's terrified of turning into a beast like her husband if he gets promoted. So she ends it with him thinking there's no point in exchanging one prison for another.
But from her attitude at the end, she seems to regret her decision. Perhaps she will return one day and patch things up with Warden.
At first he may have been afraid of turning into a beast like Holmes but I think his encounter with the clean-cut Captain Ross changed his opinion of officers.
shareIt wasn't a hobby. She was unhappy and decided to mess around, though her husband did it a lot more often and with more people.
share